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Old 09-30-11, 07:06 PM
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Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

3-part series airing Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday on PBS.

Didn't even know about this, but Jeopardy promoted it with a category tonight.

http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/prohibition/about/

PROHIBITION is a three-part, five-and-a-half-hour documentary film series directed by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick that tells the story of the rise, rule, and fall of the Eighteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and the entire era it encompassed.

The culmination of nearly a century of activism, Prohibition was intended to improve, even to ennoble, the lives of all Americans, to protect individuals, families, and society at large from the devastating effects of alcohol abuse.

But the enshrining of a faith-driven moral code in the Constitution paradoxically caused millions of Americans to rethink their definition of morality. Thugs became celebrities, responsible authority was rendered impotent. Social mores in place for a century were obliterated. Especially among the young, and most especially among young women, liquor consumption rocketed, propelling the rest of the culture with it: skirts shortened. Music heated up. America's Sweetheart morphed into The Vamp.

Prohibition turned law-abiding citizens into criminals, made a mockery of the justice system, caused illicit drinking to seem glamorous and fun, encouraged neighborhood gangs to become national crime syndicates, permitted government officials to bend and sometimes even break the law, and fostered cynicism and hypocrisy that corroded the social contract all across the country. With Prohibition in place, but ineffectively enforced, one observer noted, America had hardly freed itself from the scourge of alcohol abuse – instead, the "drys" had their law, while the "wets" had their liquor.

The story of Prohibition's rise and fall is a compelling saga that goes far beyond the oft-told tales of gangsters, rum runners, flappers, and speakeasies, to reveal a complicated and divided nation in the throes of momentous transformation. The film raises vital questions that are as relevant today as they were 100 years ago – about means and ends, individual rights and responsibilities, the proper role of government and finally, who is — and who is not — a real American.

Last edited by Red Dog; 09-30-11 at 07:40 PM.
Old 10-02-11, 10:25 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

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Old 10-02-11, 11:10 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Looking forward to this.
Old 10-02-11, 03:05 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

I plan to record an encore showing of this -- my DVR schedule is pretty full Sunday nights.
Old 10-02-11, 06:06 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Burns has been all over the place plugging it this week, I've seen him several times doing interviews and etc.

Amazing that a nation that is doing the very same thing today, suffering even worse crime and corruption side effects, will be able watch something like this and not learn a damned thing by doing so.
Old 10-03-11, 06:48 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Part 1 was amazing, I thought. I am a big fan of Burns' style.
Old 10-03-11, 12:27 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Learned some amazing stuff watching this. In the mid 1800s the average man was consuming 88 bottles of whiskey a year. Makes us look like teatodlers these days.
Old 10-03-11, 02:29 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Yeah, crazy how much people were drinking back then. Part 1 was really well done. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Never knew so many states had prohibition laws before Prohibition went into effect, particularly some in the west, like Oregon and Washington. I knew there was something I didn't like about those people.
Old 10-03-11, 02:48 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

The wife and I watched last night and were entertained. I'm not a big documentary person, but anything about booze will usually catch my eye.

Yeah, that 88 bottles a year statistic is CRAZY.

Also was interested to find out where the terms "tea-totaler" and "bootlegger" came from. Looking forward to part 2 tonight.
Old 10-03-11, 03:35 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

FYI: the entire series is available on Blu-ray/DVD TOMORROW if you don't want to wait to see the rest of the episodes.
Old 10-03-11, 04:22 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by RobLutter
FYI: the entire series is available on Blu-ray/DVD TOMORROW if you don't want to wait to see the rest of the episodes.
You can also download it off itunes for like $6.99 an episode if that's your thing.
Old 10-03-11, 04:24 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by Geofferson
I plan to record an encore showing of this -- my DVR schedule is pretty full Sunday nights.
D'oh -- I forgot to record this last night. I see that PBS is airing all 3 on Sunday afternoon -- I'll just look to catch them then.
Old 10-04-11, 06:59 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Episode two was pretty good, though I felt it dragged a bit in parts. Looking forward to the conclusion tonight.
Old 10-04-11, 08:13 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by cungar
Learned some amazing stuff watching this. In the mid 1800s the average man was consuming 88 bottles of whiskey a year. Makes us look like teatodlers these days.
That's a staggering figure.

I also never really thought about WWI and the backlash against German-Americans. It was basically a perfect storm for the moralists trying to implement prohibition.

Watched ep 1 and the first 30 min of ep 2 so far.....really good stuff. Great subject matter for the Burns style/format. I found it ironic that this premiered opposite Boardwalk Empire.

Last edited by Red Dog; 10-04-11 at 09:01 AM.
Old 10-04-11, 10:00 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by Red Dog
That's a staggering figure.
Old 10-05-11, 08:16 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

The story about the woman U.S. Attorney was very interesting. I had never heard of her before and had no idea that a woman had such a prominent role in the government in the 20s.

Interesting how prohibition forced a kind of integration: how blacks and whites came together in Harlem clubs and the mixing of the genders in bars for the first time.

at how Capone had all the crime stopped when that convention came to Chicago.

A really good series. A terrific look at the epic folly that was prohibition. Hopefully it can serve as a lesson to some today when you try to ban substances that people want.
Old 10-05-11, 09:18 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

I laughed out loud when they were talking about George Remus... who went away to prison due to 3000 prohibition violations... told his cellmate, who was an undercover agent investigating him receiving special treatment in prison, that his wife was holding all his properties and fortune. The guy quits his federal job (after fucking up Remus' sweet prison life), steals his wife (who files divorce papers) and collaborates in stealing all his money before he gets out of prison. He returns to a home that has been completely stripped and his fortune gone.

Sees his wife in another vehicle on his way to their divorce hearing, has his driver run the car off the road, and shoots her dead.

Then is acquitted of the murder charge due to "temporary insanity". Win. LOL.

I actually never knew that 3.5% beer was made legal before the end of prohibition. Go Beer Act!

The one thing I wish he had delved into more was the effect the 21st Amendment had on how beer is sold in the US with the establishment of the Three-tier system between customer-distributor-manufacturer. See 'Beer Wars' for an interesting doc on that bit.

75 years later the 21st Amendment's affect is still causing issues here in Texas... mostly because afterwards some idiot in Austin (oh wait, I'm in Austin!) decided that beer is anything below 4% ABV and ale is anything above. You have no idea how many problems that still makes getting out-of-state brews here. That and a local brewer once told me he basically had to pay a $10,000 "bribe" to a local distributor to be even considered to have his product moved. Ha. Oh well, save that for Ken Burns' 'Post-Prohibition'. Mwaha.

Last edited by RobLutter; 10-05-11 at 09:26 AM.
Old 10-05-11, 09:30 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by Red Dog
A really good series. A terrific look at the epic folly that was prohibition. Hopefully it can serve as a lesson to some today when you try to ban substances that people want.
The difference between marijuana and alcohol is that there's not really an immigrant culture (we are all immigrants after all) that has a great tradition of regularly using it.

Well, unless your ancestors are from the Netherlands or Jamaica, then it's understandable.
Old 10-05-11, 09:43 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by RobLutter
I laughed out loud when they were talking about George Remus... who went away to prison due to 3000 prohibition violations... told his cellmate, who was an undercover agent investigating him receiving special treatment in prison, that his wife was holding all his properties and fortune. The guy quits his federal job (after fucking up Remus' sweet prison life), steals his wife (who files divorce papers) and collaborates in stealing all his money before he gets out of prison. He returns to a home that has been completely stripped and his fortune gone.

Sees his wife in another vehicle on his way to their divorce hearing, has his driver run the car off the road, and shoots her dead.

Then is acquitted of the murder charge due to "temporary insanity". Win. LOL.
That was friggin crazy. My wife actually said she didn't blame the guy for shooting that bitch after we heard that part.

Good doc. Like I said, not a big documentary guy, but that one was pretty cool. Nice job, Ken Burns.
Old 10-05-11, 10:19 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

I laughed at that line from NY gangster Lucky Luciano on visiting Chicago: "That's a real goddammned crazy town. You're not even safe on the streets," or something to that effect.

I have to say, it must have been a lot of fun sneaking into those speakeasy joints for a beer.

And speaking of prohibition, does anyone else live in a dry town? Mine was completely dry from 1856-2005, when the town changed the rules slightly so that IF you order a full meal at a restaurant, you can order a drink. But still there are no bars, no alcohol sold in stores, etc.
Old 10-05-11, 10:47 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Prohibition's real lessons for drug policy
By Kevin A. Sabet
Wed Oct 5 2011 12:00 AM

Prohibition — America's notoriously "failed social experiment" to rid the country of alcohol — took center stage this week as PBS broadcast Ken Burns' highly acclaimed series on the subject. And already, it has been seized on by drug legalization advocates, who say it proves that drug prohibition should be abandoned.

But a closer look at what resulted from alcohol prohibition and its relevance to today's anti-drug effort reveals a far more nuanced picture than the legalization lobby might like to admit.

As argued by Harvard's Mark Moore and other astute policy observers, alcohol prohibition had beneficial effects along with the negative ones. Alcohol use plummeted among the general population. Cirrhosis of the liver fell by 66% among men. Arrests for public drunkenness declined by half.

Yes, organized crime was emboldened, but the mob was already powerful before Prohibition, and it continued to be long after.

No one is suggesting that alcohol prohibition should be reinstated. Americans have concluded that the right to drink outweighs public health and safety consequences. But it is important to remember that the policy was not the complete failure that most think it was, and so we should be wary of misapplying its lessons.

If our experience with Prohibition was a nuanced one, then it is surely a stretch to apply the so-called conventional wisdom associated with it to help us shape policies on other intoxicants today. Still, a favorite argument of drug legalization supporters is that because "we all know" alcohol prohibition failed, drug prohibition is destined to fail too. Given modern America's thirst for liquor, it is a clever political maneuver to link the two policies in this way. But notwithstanding one's position on the success or failure of alcohol prohibition, there are key differences between that policy and modern-day drug enforcement that render a comparison almost useless for serious policy analysis.

First, it should be remembered that unlike illegal drugs today, alcohol was never prohibited altogether. Laws forbade the sale and distribution of liquor, but personal use was not against the law. Second, alcohol prohibition was not enforced in the way today's drug laws are. Congress and the executive branch were uninterested in enforcing the law. Even many prohibitionists felt that the law was so effective it did not need enforcement. Police, prosecutors, judges and juries frequently refused to use the powers the law gave them. In 1927, only 18 of the 48 states even budgeted money for the enforcement of Prohibition, and some states openly defied the law.

The key difference between alcohol and drug prohibition, however, lies in the substance itself. Alcohol, unlike illegal drugs, has a long history of widespread, accepted use in our society, dating back to before biblical times. Illegal drugs cannot claim such pervasive use by a large part of the planet's population over such a long period of time.

What lessons should we be taking from America's experiment with Prohibition to inform our drug policy? One is that when a substance is legal, powerful business interests have an incentive to encourage use by keeping prices low. Heavier use, in turn, means heavier social costs. For example, alcohol is the cause of 1 million more arrests annually than are all illegal drugs combined. Indeed, alcohol use leads to $180 billion in costs associated with healthcare, the criminal justice system and lost productivity; alcohol taxes, on the other hand — kept outrageously low by a powerful lobby — generate revenue amounting to less than a tenth of these costs.

Even so, drug legalization advocates try to capitalize on our country's current budget woes and use the potential for new tax revenue as a key argument in favor of repealing drug laws. But as author Daniel Okrent, whose research into Prohibition inspired Burns' series, wrote last year, "The history of the intimate relationship between drinking and taxing suggests … that … [people] indulging a fantasy of income tax relief emerging from a cloud of legalized marijuana smoke should realize that it is likely only a pipe dream."

If our experience with legal alcohol provides us with any lessons for drug policy, it is this: We have little reason to believe that the benefits of drug legalization would outweigh its costs.

But that doesn't mean that we need to be severe and punitive in our drug enforcement either. People in recovery from alcohol and other drug addictions should be entitled to social benefits, including access to education, housing and employment opportunities, despite their past drug use. We should think seriously about the rationale and effectiveness of imposing harsh mandatory minimum sentences for simple drug possession. And no one can credibly argue that we have enough treatment slots for everyone who needs them, or that we have an adequate supply of evidence-based drug prevention for every school kid regardless of economic background. Indeed, our current drug policy leaves something to be desired, and like most policies, it needs constant refinement.

Still, it is wrongheaded to think that the only choices we have in drug policy are a punitive approach centered exclusively on enforcement, or one based on careless legalization. Neither has ever worked particularly well.

Kevin A. Sabet stepped down last month as senior policy advisor to President Obama's drug czar. He currently is a consultant and a fellow at the Center for Substance Abuse Solutions at the University of Pennsylvania.
http://mobile.latimes.com/p.p?a=rp&m...%3D0%26DPL%3D3

It was mentioned last night that some hoped to end prohibition so that alcohol could be taxed again and thus lessen the new federal income tax. Like the end of prohibition I seriously doubt any tax revenue generated from drug legalization would lessen our tax burdens elsewhere...
Old 10-05-11, 11:37 AM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Of course there are lessons from Prohibition that can be applied to the War on Drugs. Anyone who doesn't have a stake in maintaining the status quo would admit that.

The history of the temperance movement was great. The explanation of the social forces that created Prohibition was excellent. I never understood before why it passed in the first place. I didn't know that the Anti-Saloon League was the first big-dollar political pressure group. I didn't know that Susan B Anthony formed the first women's temperance group. I didn't know that men drank an average of 88 bottles a year of hard liquor. No wonder workmen drank a pail of beer for lunch and thought nothing of it. I hadn't made the connection between Capone being busted for income tax evasion and the fact that income taxes were only a decade old. I didn't know how Prohibition had been repealed.

A very cool series.
Old 10-05-11, 12:08 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

Originally Posted by Nick Danger
I hadn't made the connection between Capone being busted for income tax evasion and the fact that income taxes were only a decade old. I didn't know how Prohibition had been repealed.
I never put 2 and 2 together on that. It was genius move by the dry forces to make up the lost revenue.

Then the reverse was true - when you saw the wealthy pushing for repeal, hoping that it would mean the end of the income tax. So much for that.

Re: that article above - I don't support ending the War on Drugs because it will lower income taxes. I think there are very few people foolish enough to believe that it would. I'm not sure where Sabet is getting that from. I think more people think about the gov't revenue side of it (and the things that it could be used for, like paying down the debt). And I'm against it for libertarian reasons and the fact that I believe it contributes to more violent crimes (as Prohibition did).

And why am I not surprised that the bullshit commentary came from a former drug czar.
Old 10-05-11, 12:57 PM
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Re: Ken Burns' "Prohibition" -- premieres Sunday 10/2/11

I disagree with almost everything that asshole drug czar says, but this is probably the most head in the sand comment I've ever read:
Yes, organized crime was emboldened, but the mob was already powerful before Prohibition
Before prohibition the mob was a numbers/protection racket that had a tiny bit of power over the ethnic slum community they controlled. After prohibition they became multimillionaires who didn't just have power, but became the center of power, in their cities. After prohibition they just moved their operations into narcotics, gambling, protection, etc. The old rackets, only now on a massive scale. How can this guy say what he said? Willful denial. What an ass.

And this:
What lessons should we be taking from America's experiment with Prohibition to inform our drug policy? One is that when a substance is legal, powerful business interests have an incentive to encourage use by keeping prices low.
He says this like it's a bad thing. The high prices of narcotics (whose prices are high thanks to law enforcements efforts) is what leads to crime. The high prices support the criminal enterprise. Only a big government fellating, America hating, ivy league liberal piece of shit could say what he's saying. He's basicly saying it's okay that criminals pocket outrageous wealth (tax free) and use it to finance a criminal underworld because if drugs were legal "powerful business interests" (the real criminals) would be incentivized to keep prices for drugs low.

Last edited by Mabuse; 10-05-11 at 01:06 PM.

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