toddly6666

I think one of the main reasons that I didn't enjoy Disney's THE PRINCESS & THE FROG as much as I wanted to is because I've been spoiled by Hayao Miyazaki/Ghibli animated films. I do like Disney films but they are not even close to being as good or special as Miyazaki's animated films. I'm starting to believe that it's insulting when people say "Hayao Miyazaki is the Disney of Japan." I think it should be more like "Disney is the Miyazaki of USA". There are a few Disney films that don't feel like made-for-tv cartoon movies (Pinocchio, Dumbo, Cinderella, Beauty & the Beast, Snow White) while the rest do. Many of them are okay, but I think even the best Disney films don't even measure up to the worst of the Miyazaki films. I would take the less-respected Pom Poko, Porco Roso or Howl's Moving Castle over the overrated Sleeping Beauty, The Lion King, or Bambi any day.

Once again, I like the majority of Miyazaki and Disney films, but Miyazaki's films are so much more special. It takes a genius to make animated film after animated film in which the story isn't dumbed down, there is barely any slap-stick fart jokes, there's no hyper characters, and even some without villains. To make a movie that has conflict without "cliched villains" is not an easy task and Miyazaki has proved that over and over. And the animation style in Miyazaki's films are more visually appealing than in Disney films.

I've seen the majority of Disney animated films (around 30 of them) and I've seen every Miyazaki/Ghibli film (around 22 of them). I think Totoro K.O.s Mickey.

What do all you think? Who wins?

superdeluxe

Well honestly I don't think it is a fair situation, because Disney has so many movies, while Miyazaki does not have as many. Although on a whole, I enjoyed Miyazaki's films more than Disney

Ash Ketchum

I've seen most of Disney's animated features, from SNOW WHITE on up to...HERCULES, MULAN, TARZAN, and I don't recall what, if any, I've seen since. Still that's a good 60-odd years worth of Disney features.

I've seen all of Miyazaki's films, from CASTLE CAGLIOSTRO to PONYO, as well as some of his pre-CAGLIOSTRO TV work (Lupin III, early eps. of Future Boy Conan), so that's 30-odd years of work.

I have to say that, even as a kid, I was never terribly impressed with Disney's stuff. Of course, I discovered Miyazaki as an adult (and I took my then seven-year-old daughter to my first Miyazaki, LAPUTA: CASTLE IN THE SKY) and I've gotten much greater satisfaction from Miyazaki over the years than I ever did from Disney. Esp. his big four from the '80s: NAUSICAA, LAPUTA, TOTORO, and KIKI, followed by his '90s masterpiece, PRINCESS MONONOKE.

toddly6666

Well, one would think that Disney has the advantage because Disney has done slightly more, but it's a quality-over-quantity scenario anyway. I personally see 13 of Miyazaki's films as masterpieces and I see maybe 3 or 4 Disney films as masterpieces.

Jon2

To answer your last question, no one wins. It's just opinion.

One I don't share, btw, because the comparisons don't hold... for a number reasons.

First and foremost, they aren't telling the same kind of stories.

Second, the animation doesn't compare, either. I have to be honest and say that I've never really been impressed by Japanese animation, although I was a fan of the original AstroBoy, Gigantor and Kimba as a kid (which was a long time ago, btw).

But then again I also watched Courageous Cat and Minute Mouse.

FWIW, I do have Kiki and Castle in the Sky. I consider Kiki delightful and it is one of my favorite animated movies. Because of Kiki I bought Castle, but was really disappointed and found it depressing. The conclusion was such a predictable anti-technology screed.

Hokeyboy

Ghibli is has a strong track record, but it's not flawless. PONYO and HOWL were only average IMO, and SPIRITED AWAY is thoroughly overrated (It's the AKIRA of the 00s, and that's not a compliment). On the other hand, with stellar work like MONONOKE, PORCO ROSSO, TOTORRO, LAPUTA, NAUSICAA, GRAVE OF THE FIRELIES, KIKI, WHISPER OF MY HEART... wow those are some great movies.

But then again, Disney did FANTASIA, which still stands as the greatest, most groundbreaking and breathtaking animated achievement of all time. So Disney gets the edge in my book.

Giles

and yet Miyazaki films arent dependent on hit or miss song and dance musical numbers to pull in a crowd

Hokeyboy

That Lindy Hop sing-along number in Bambi sure was something else...

Giles

made me wanna go out and hunt for wabbits

Neeb

Overall: Disney.

Last 15 years: Ghibli.

I love Spirited Away, Howl's and Ponyo, but they can't stand up to the totality of Disney from Snow White to PATF.

Giles

it's kind of too bad that Disney had to return to it's 2D cel work with PATF when both Ghibli and Pixar (CARS, and TALES FROM EARTHSEA wthstanding) emphasize solid and better screenplay writing skills

emachine

Based on what I've seen from both, Disney.

toddly6666

I hope people aren't just judging Miyazaki after just watching one or two movies...

RichC2

I think Disney has a better overall record and more genuine classics. That said, Ghibli's very best is, imo, superior to Disney's very best. So it's a draw.

Ghibli has sort of been lackluster the past few years - The Cat Returns, Earthsea and Ponyo all marked low points for the studio. Disney has been terrible the last few years as well.

That said, Spirited Away is one of my all time favorite flicks and My Neighbor Totoro is still fantastic. Grave of the Fireflies is mildly overrated but still a very high quality film. Laputa and Nausicaa were both great.

With Disney, I love Aladdin and The Lion King, as well as numerous older flicks.

Giles

according to what I've read 'Ponyo' is NOT a low point - 'Earthsea' is a definate embarrassment - Disnet will never release that statestde - yes it's that bad.

Hokeyboy

I hope people aren't just judging Disney after just watching their post-1989 product.

toddly6666

Have you ever met a person that when they talk about Disney films they only talk about Little Mermaid and Aladin? Yikes! The good thing about animated films is that they are timeless so hopefully I hope kids today apppreciate Pinocchio as they would with The Lion King.

Actually, for anyone with kids here, do you know if they like the older Disney films just as much as the newer ones?

MScottM

Apples and Oranges people. Or if you prefer seedlings and saplings. Walt built from the ground up he had nothing to build from and no ones work to look back on to compare with. Miyazaki uses a whole different level of tech for his movies. Wait a hundred years and have this conversation about whoever is putting out the best animation then. The styles are so different that the end products aren't even meant to be compared to each other. Sort of like which is the best car a Ford Model A or a 2009Mercedes-Benz.

I know lots of you will say "but they are still making movies the same way at Disney" and you are right. They will continue to do that because it works for them and they make lots of money from it. So the only way you can really compare them is to say, which movies make the most money Disney or Miyazaki movies. I think we know the answer to that. Everything else is just opinion.

And just so I am clear. I enjoy both studios products.

Sondheim

Well, Miyazaki's "Spirited Away" and Takahata's "Grave of the Fireflies" would both most likely place among my top ten favorite films. "Kiki's Delivery Service", "My Neighbor Totoro", "Princess Mononoke", "Only Yesterday", and "My Neighbors the Yamadas" would also rank very highly on a list of personal favorites. "Howl's Moving Castle" still doesn't completely work for me, even after two viewings - though there are some parts of it that I find extremely moving and beautiful. I loved "Ponyo" a lot, but I'm going to wait to watch it a second time (in Japanese, preferably) before deciding where it fits on my list. I liked all the rest of the Ghibli films that I've seen (which is all of the feature length ones, I believe, with the exception of "Tales from Earthsea") to varying degrees.

As for Disney - though I've seen a good majority of their animated films (including their earliest ones), the ones that have the strongest effect on me are those made from the lates 80s to the mid 90s - mainly "The Little Mermaid" through "Aladdin" (I never have been as big a fan of "The Lion King".) My strong affection for them may simply be a result of the fact that they were the films I watched a lot as a child and I attach a lot of nostalgic value to them, though they do still seem to hold up very well today, unlike some of the other films I loved as a child (like the musical version of "Dr. Dolittle".)

Anyways, I'd have to go with Studio Ghibli and the films of Hayao Miyazaki and Isao Takahata for this match. I really like a lot of Disney's films - and in terms of sheer number of good films they've produced they would easily win - but Ghibli's films just connect with me more strongly.

toddly6666

Without Winsor Mcay, there would be no Walt Disney.

What whole different level of tech are you refering to? The methods of the hand-drawn animation of the Disney and Ghibli films are more or less the same.

Does the time period really matter? Disney animation started in the 1920s, and Ghibli/Toei animation started in the 1940s. Why do we have to wait 100 years to compare when we can compare them now? What's going to happen in that 100th year? The movies of Miyazaki/Ghibli and Disney have been around long enough to figure out what's dated or not. And actually, the majority of films from both aren't dated and are actually quite timeless. I'm just asking you and everyone else which company do you personally like more.



I've been in movie forums long enough to get a good idea about people's All-time Top 10 Favorite Movie lists (any kind of movie, not just animation). I don't think I've ever seen somone list a Disney film in there. As much as I love Pinocchio or Dumbo I wouldn't put it in my Top 10 All-time Favorite Movies list (that honor goes to Mononoke or Kiki's). I haven't seen a Disney film in anyone's Top 10. If it's an animated film in someone's Top 10 film list, it's usually Princess Mononoke, My Neighbor Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, Spirited Away, or Nausicaä. Just a little observation! I think that says a little something about which ones are better or not, at least in movie forums on the computer! Or do I have to wait a hundred years to make an observation about people's Top 10 Movies lists?

Nausicaa

Hard to say since Disney is such a huge company with so many different talents over the years, whereas Ghibli is a much smaller studio and its films mostly the singular vision of a handful of directors. In general, I prefer Ghibli's more grounded storytelling and characters over Disney's typical bombast. I think Ghibli at their best (Totoro, Kiki's, Mononoke, Porco Rosso, etc.) is pretty hard to beat.

However, I think Disney at their best deserves credit for the quality of their animation. I might prefer the art style and dreamy worlds Ghibli creates, but Disney wins in technical terms. The fluidity of motion, illusion of weight, and the emotive qualities they can evoke in something like Snow White are comparatively understated in Ghibli films. I may not enjoy the stories but the artistry never fails to amaze me.

Of course I think The Theif and the Cobbler is the most impressive traditional 2D animation I've seen.

Mabuse

This.

No one, not even the biggest Ghibli fan can disagree with this statement. Ghibli may have great stories and characters, but the quality of Disney's animation, design, detail, and effects simply does not compare.

The last 20 years of Disney animation has had its ups and downs, the twenty years before that were uneven, but the output from 1932-1945 (shorts and features) is unparrelleled; it's absolutely master piece perfection. Many films after that are excellent as well, but some struggle.

Someone said Sleeping Beauty (1959) is overrated. I beg to differ, it is frequently criticized for its many fualts (no story, poorly developed story, no character depth, bad music).

Someone said no one has any Disney films in their all time top 10. I place Pinnochio on my list w/out hesitation. Also, one reason people don't put Disney films on their list is that there are so many to choose from it becomes hard to narrow it down.

MScottM

[QUOTE] I'm just asking you and everyone else which company do you personally like more.[QUOTE]

Actually the way I read it was you are asking which is better and I think they are too different in styles to compare. I personally like both of them but if I had to pick one I would go with Disney for nostalgic reasons.



No you don't have to wait 100 years to make observations about people's Top 10 movies list but if you did I would hazard to guess that most of the movies on Top 10 lists now wouldn't be on them then.

Sorry, having problems with the quotes. I don't do a lot of multi-quoting replies.

toddly6666

[QUOTE=MScottM;9891240]It took me a while at the beginning too...I used to just copy and paste what someone said and then just italicize it...


Well, either way both Disney and Miyazaki are great, and in 100 years, we are gonna be in flying cars and watching hologram animated films directed by Ashton Kutcher...

Goldberg74

I get bored to tears when watching Miyazaki/Ghibli films and I've seen quite a few. They're either slow-paced-to-the-point-of-boredom or too-fast-paced-to-keep-up. The only one that I even remotely enjoyed was Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind.

But I can sit and watch Disney's movies many times over.

But it's a matter of taste.

Being and artist/designer I can appreciate the beauty of the craftsmanship and talent of Studio Ghibli, but it's just not my cup of tea.

But then again, I've never been that enamored with the Japanese/Eastern culture as most folks are these days.