B5Erik

When it comes to Winger I really think that some people are sheep, basing their opinions on the band on Beavis and Butthead and a couple early videos.

The fact is, Winger is one of the best bands of the Pop Metal/Melodic Metal genre ever. You had four very accomplished musicians (Kip Winger from Alice Cooper's band, Rod Morgenstein from the Dixie Dregs, Reb Beach who was a very successful and in-demand studio musician, and Paul Taylor, who had also spent time in Alice Cooper's band.

The musical complexity that Winger brought to the table was combined with tremendous melody and fantastic hooks, something rarely accomplished in popular music.

Here are some examples....

Down Incognito..........................................................................Junkyard Dog
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Madalaine..................................................................................Hungry
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Higher and Higher
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If you're listening with your ears rather than with your eyes (a problem some people also have with KISS) then at the very least you have to hear a higher level of musical sophistication than their contemporaries in the the same genre. Winger was one of the best (if not the best) at what they did.

Hokeyboy

Winger had some extremely talented musicians in their stable. Them being tagged with the "All Things Sucky About 80s Hair Metal" label was unfortunate. The songs were catchy and very well executed.

I was about 17 or so when "Madalaine" broke as a single, I remember hearing that opening with the 12-string guitar overlay and was just hooked instantly.


I hated Europe.

cdollaz

When you write lyrics like the following, you deserve every bit of ridicule that comes your way:


I saw sparks fly, from the corner of my eye
And when I turned, it was love at first sight
I said please excuse me, I didn't catch your name
Oh it'd be a shame not to see you again
And just when I thought she was comin' to my door
She whispered sweet and brought me to the floor, she said
I'm only seventeen, but I'll show you love like you've never seen
She's only seventeen, daddy says she's too young, but she's old enough for me
Come to my place, we can talk it over, oh everything going down in your head
She said take it easy, I need some time, time to work it out, to make you mine
And just when I thought she was comin' to my door
She whispered sweet and brought me to the floor, she said
I'm only seventeen, you ain't seen love, ain't seen nothing like me
She's only seventeen, seventeen
(Solo)
Such a bad girl, loves to work me overtime
Feels good (ha), dancin' close to the borderline
She's a magic mountain, she's a leather glove
Oh she's my soul, it must be love
She's only seventeen, still she gives me love, like I've never seen
She's only seventeen, daddy says she's too young, but she's old enough for me
She's everything I need, daddy says she's too young
But she's old enough, old enough for me

bunkaroo

Winger was great. I hold them in the same light as I do bands like Extreme and Mr. Big. Awesome musicians writing and performing much better than average pop metal.

Reb Beach's solos on Headed For A Heartbreak are two of my all time favorites.

I have a feeling Winger got a little more grief because they had an actual keyboard player in their videos (although he also played guitar), whereas most other bands just used them on their records. Keys were always seen as "wimpy" in metal back then - at least that was my impression. I remember constantly hearing how much people hated Iron Maiden's "keyboard" albums, which I personally think some of their best.

This thread reminded me I don't have Pull anymore. I think I'll try and find a used copy.

Sean O'Hara

You can post under your real name Stewart.

wishbone

Reb Beach was the man and he absolutely shreds on that song.

At the time I would see pictures of Kip Winger and he would wear tee shirts of "harder" metal acts, like Sacred Reich for example -- I could not tell if he was really into these bands or if he was just being a poseur.

Giantrobo

I saw them open for Judas Priest years ago and that cool "heartbreak" song is the only one I can remember from them. They were a decent band but I guess it sucked to be them as far as Beavis and Butthead.

As far as being the best, i beg to differ. If they were truly "the best', some t-shirt on a cartoon would never have cost them their reputation. I mean yeah, at best, they were a decent but cookie cutter 80's band.

The Cow

I love Junkyard Dog. That is a great tune. That whole album is pretty good.

bunkaroo

Well he was in Alice Cooper's band which is a little harder than Winger. Not Sacred Reich hard but you never know.

Look at White Lion's drummer at the time - he tried out for and may have actually been in Anthrax before Charlie Benante.

I was a fan of pop metal in the late 80's/early 90's even though my musical roots and the bands I played in were all thrash and speed metal at the time. I guess Kip could have been too.

islandclaws

I remember I used to have a Winger album on cassette that I listened the shit out of back in like '91. I don't think I've listened to them since. I don't even think I can rememeber one song on that album come to think of it. Still, I obviously thought they were rockin' at one point.

Giantrobo

And B5Erik, at some point youtube is gonna track your metal lovin' ass down and start charging you for bandwith.

Mordred

I really love Reb Beach's style of guitar playing. Unfortunately I think Kip Winger is one of the biggest asses of the '80s. His voice isn't terrible, but he just rubs me the wrong way. I can't really listen to them because of it.

I do think it's a little sad that B&B killed their career, although I doubt they would have lasted much longer into the '90s anyway.

wishbone

There a fold-out poster of Kip Winger in RIP magazine. It was a side profile with Kip flashing a big 'ol cheesy grin and flexing his bicep.

A couple of friends in college put the poster on the front of their dart board.

starseed1981

....urge to threadcap rising.

cungar

Who could hate a band that has the balls to put out an album cover like this:

nothingfails

groups like Winger are why grunge had to come along

ROFL, this reminds me of a friend I had in junior high who hated Nirvana and all things alternative but clung to his 80's hair bands

Giantrobo

Hey, if we can judge a band based only on album covers then KISS is the greatest band to ever live.

Jason

They must have already worn out their Kevin Dubrow dartboard.

Winger never really worked for me for some reason. They weren't a joke band by any stretch, but they came into being just as pop metal was getting real saccharine-y, and they played up their MTV looks too much. Their later material, which has been ignored by pretty much everyone, is better than the first album.

nothingfails

not threadcrapping (or at least not trying to), but weren't Winger always considered a joke amongst metalheads, even before Beavis And ButtHead premiered? I always think of the Metallica video where they're throwing darts at a picture of Kip. I even remember a few of the more respected hair bands saying that it was Winger and Warrant that sealed the fate of hair bands and was a factor in why grunge exploded.

I have freinds who love Winger still, but for the most part, I thought they were regarded by a lot of 80's metal fans the same way 90's alternative fans regard something like Creed or Candlebox, or current rock fans regard Fall Out Boy and Nickelback

B5Erik

See, a lot of people forget how wide a spectrum Heavy Metal covered back in the 80's - there were several sub-genre's, and Pop Metal (or Melodic Metal) was just one of them.

Winger was one of the very best Pop Metal bands (not a huge accomplishment, considering the throwaway nature of a lot of that type of stuff, but they did have some substance and great musicianship and were really good songwriters within said sub-genre).

Fans of Metallica and Megadeth, for example, hated Winger, but fans of Whitesnake, KISS, Motley Crue, Ratt, etc, tended to like Winger, for the most part. Winger really belonged in the stylistic grouping that included Europe, Poison, Danger Danger, Firehouse, etc. They were better (and heavier) than all of those bands, IMO. A lot of people have lumped a lot of Metal sub-genres together and it really blurs the lines that existed back then.

Rocketdog2000

That's an excellent point, an one that very much needed being said.

People, especially those who didn't live through or experience it, often want to just lump all 80's Metal and related music into one category, and say it was just one thing. Sadly, it's usually under the extremely lame tag of "Hair Metal". But as you pointed out, there were so many sub-genres within the genre. Like any kind of music, some were great, some were good, some were ok and some were awful.

Generally, your "thrash/hardcore metal" fans felt that only their bands - Metallica, Megadeath, Anthrax, Death...etc - were 'true' metal bands, and the everything else was pussy music.

I think that most people who liked what are now typically billed as "hair metal bands", didn't even really consider them to be 'true' metal bands when they were around. I know I sure didn't, and still don't.

When someone makes a statement like "this is why grunge had to come along" - well yes, and no. People were saying the same sort of thing about Guns N' Roses when they came onto the scene - how they were a real rock band, and were going to show all the posers how it was really done, and what it was really about. But then you've got a whole group of other people who will lump GNR in with those same bands as the same kind of music.

It's really just the nature of the beast. When any type of music genre has worn out it's welcome, some new form will come along to be the new "thing" - i.e. 'grunge' - and that's all of a sudden all anybody cares about, or deems 'important'. But the funny thing is, it's really only a matter of time before folks will turn on that very same new form, and follow something else. I can guarantee you that there's already a group (or generation) of people, or soon will be, who do (or will) view grunge music as just as passe and goofy now, as people currently view any form of 80's metal type music.

nothingfails

RE: GNR. I don't know anyone who associates them ala Europe, Firehouse, Britny Fox. Remember that GNR were one of the only 80's rock bands, alongside Def Leppard, who were still scoring massive hits once grunge took over. Remember that November Rain was one of the biggest MTV videos ever, and that was summer of 92, after Nirvana hit #1 and Pearl Jam sold their first million. Def Lep faded eventually because they did one too many bad ballads (and Adrenalize really wasn't one of their better albums either) and GNR of course faded because of Axl's ego, but both of those bands were able to hold on when all the pop-metal bands were dropping like flies.

RE: Grunge being passe. I think that time has already come and passed, just like pop-metal. Groups like Def Leppard, Motley Crue, Poison have bounced back from the backlashes and are now considered classic rockers. It's only groups like Winger, Europe, etc... that are still ridiculed today. Think of it similar to (and I know most metalheads hate the genre, but it makes sense in terms of backlash) disco. Disco suffered a huge backlash, but years later, people like The Bee Gees and Donna Summer have been able to bounce back when the backlash turned to nostalgia and many people have no embarassment to admit they love Donna Summer, but at the same time, The Village People are still as embarassing today as it was 25 years ago.

90's grunge/alternative had it's time where it went out of fashion (just check out "Click" with Adam Sandler, where grunge is treated as dated as the 80's fashions were in The Wedding Singer), and groups like Candlebox and Creed are treated no better than Warrant are today. But the respectable groups in the genre like Nirvana, Alice In Chains, Pearl Jam and the sort are now on classic rock stations, just like the most respected "hair" bands.

Giantrobo

Right.

If the band brings something truly special to the table they'll transcend any negative label. Winger, unfortunately, hasn't achieved this yet and I'm not sure they ever will. Again, Winger wasn't bad. But they weren't particularly special in their genre.

Rocketdog2000

And I wasn't saying they were. Basically nothingfails just backed up the point I was trying to make, even though he missed part of it. As I said, there were great bands, good bands, ok bands and ones that sucked. I'd probably put Winger in the "good" to "ok" category - as they weren't necessarily the former, nor were they always the latter.

GuessWho

<-- saw Winger a couple months ago at House of Blues