Carmack says 360 Rage will suffer on 2 discs
08-01-08, 09:10 AM
#1
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Carmack says 360 Rage will suffer on 2 discs
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http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/01/ca...d-to-two-dvds/
I can understand that more compression would be required to fit a large, texture-filled game onto 2 discs instead of three, but I'm confused by the royalty fees we're talking about here. Blue Dragon was 3 discs largely due to the ridiculous amount of FMV sequences and actor voice for nearly everything. But it wasn't any more expensive than any other game.
Has Carmack's "ego" (see what I did there?) gotten to the point where he feels that they should be making $22 for each copy sold instead of $20.85? I'm just making up a profit and per-disc royalty scale here because I have no idea, but it seems to me that we're talking about a marginal, at worst, decrease in per-game profit for the publisher and developer.
For him to publicly call Microsoft's royalty policies into question at his own convention is ridiculous and very childish. I'm sure they'll buckle, but what an ass.
http://www.joystiq.com/2008/08/01/ca...d-to-two-dvds/
According to id Software's resident genius John Carmack, the developer's upcoming title Rage could actually look worse on Xbox 360 "due to the compression needed to fit the game's assets on two DVDs," reports Shacknews.
Evidently royalty fees associated with a third disc would make the project financially unviable, so Carmack's looking to Microsoft to bite the bullet and rescind the fee or suffer the consequences (read: a multiplatform AAA title that looks worse on 360).
Evidently royalty fees associated with a third disc would make the project financially unviable, so Carmack's looking to Microsoft to bite the bullet and rescind the fee or suffer the consequences (read: a multiplatform AAA title that looks worse on 360).
Has Carmack's "ego" (see what I did there?) gotten to the point where he feels that they should be making $22 for each copy sold instead of $20.85? I'm just making up a profit and per-disc royalty scale here because I have no idea, but it seems to me that we're talking about a marginal, at worst, decrease in per-game profit for the publisher and developer.
For him to publicly call Microsoft's royalty policies into question at his own convention is ridiculous and very childish. I'm sure they'll buckle, but what an ass.
Last edited by pinata242; 08-01-08 at 09:14 AM.
08-01-08, 10:47 AM
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Since we have no idea what Id's bugdet and profit margin is, or how much MS charges for royalties, I think we'll have to trust him that it wouldn't be financially viable to them. I'd bet it's a bigger difference though, than $2 per disc profit.
As for Blue Dragon, maybe their situation was different. Blue Dragon was published by Microsoft. Maybe since they published it, Blue Dragon didn't have to pay a royalty? Or maybe MS waived the royalty, since they want more JRPGs on the console, to keep them happy? Or maybe they did pay it, but it fit their budget better? Who knows?
I don't think it was his ego, or him being an ass though. Where else should he have revealed this info? I think he was just explaining the differences between the versions of the game, and why the 360 version wouldn't look as good.
As for Blue Dragon, maybe their situation was different. Blue Dragon was published by Microsoft. Maybe since they published it, Blue Dragon didn't have to pay a royalty? Or maybe MS waived the royalty, since they want more JRPGs on the console, to keep them happy? Or maybe they did pay it, but it fit their budget better? Who knows?
I don't think it was his ego, or him being an ass though. Where else should he have revealed this info? I think he was just explaining the differences between the versions of the game, and why the 360 version wouldn't look as good.
08-01-08, 11:39 AM
#4
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Ghym
I don't think it was his ego, or him being an ass though. Where else should he have revealed this info? I think he was just explaining the differences between the versions of the game, and why the 360 version wouldn't look as good.
A) Make the game look better on the 360
B) Make more money
Either reason is smart from a business sense, so long as this doesn't backfire on him.
08-01-08, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mordred
Or trying to pressure Microsoft into rescinding the royalty fee to either:
A) Make the game look better on the 360
B) Make more money
Either reason is smart from a business sense, so long as this doesn't backfire on him.
A) Make the game look better on the 360
B) Make more money
Either reason is smart from a business sense, so long as this doesn't backfire on him.
08-01-08, 12:56 PM
#7
DVD Talk Godfather
Yeah I don't think we have enough info to really judge that comment yet. It seems odd that an extra disc would be such a big deal though.
EDIT: Here's some more clarification - http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-i...p-with-the-ps3
EDIT: Here's some more clarification - http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-i...p-with-the-ps3
"We have concerns (about the 360 version of Rage) because of the economics of the platform in terms of what it costs to go to multiple discs," Hollenshead said. "There is disc space issue on the 360, and if we cant find a clever way or compromise with Microsoft to address that issue... even though we feel the 360 has superior hardware, the size limitations may mean that we may not have as much texture density or resolution on the 360 version.
"Let me be clear, this is an open question, we have these tech issues and we are working with Microsoft to solve them."
And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs.
"Let me be clear, this is an open question, we have these tech issues and we are working with Microsoft to solve them."
And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs.
Last edited by fumanstan; 08-01-08 at 01:01 PM.
08-01-08, 01:07 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by fumanstan
Yeah I don't think we have enough info to really judge that comment yet. It seems odd that an extra disc would be such a big deal though.
Anyway, here's a followup to that story and more about the PS3: http://kotaku.com/5031985/rage-and-i...p-with-the-ps3 You can read it all (rather long), but I thought this bit was interesting. This is all that needed to be said regarding the issue with the 360. And I had no idea about the 2GB+ of unused space on the 360 discs. Does anyone have any knowledge what is on there that Microsoft requires that is that big?
*snip*
"Let me be clear, this is an open question, we have these tech issues and we are working with Microsoft to solve them."
And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs.
*snip*
"Let me be clear, this is an open question, we have these tech issues and we are working with Microsoft to solve them."
And the issue isn't just about the game being too big, Hollenshead says that developers lose upwards of 2 gigs of space per a disc because of information Microsoft requires developers to put on the discs.
*snip*
Last edited by pinata242; 08-01-08 at 01:12 PM.
08-01-08, 08:11 PM
#12
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by edstein
The new fall dash update will allow games to be loaded onto the hard drive. Three discs don't sound bad too me. This game looks like Motostorm with guns.
Looks like something out of the movie Road Warrior with a somewhat futuristic feel (lasers).
08-02-08, 02:11 PM
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by fumanstan
I wonder if the extra data is all XBox Live and Achievement stuff.
08-03-08, 02:42 PM
#14
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Yawn. I always enjoy the publishers bitching about space because they are too lazy to compress things. Just put it on 2 discs and STFU. You know the 360 version will sell two times as many copies as the PS3 version anyway. You'll get your money and release a guaranteed crap video game.
08-03-08, 06:45 PM
#15
DVD Talk Godfather
Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Yawn. I always enjoy the publishers bitching about space because they are too lazy to compress things. Just put it on 2 discs and STFU. You know the 360 version will sell two times as many copies as the PS3 version anyway. You'll get your money and release a guaranteed crap video game.
08-03-08, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Yawn. I always enjoy the publishers bitching about space because they are too lazy to compress things. Just put it on 2 discs and STFU. You know the 360 version will sell two times as many copies as the PS3 version anyway. You'll get your money and release a guaranteed crap video game.
09-16-08, 11:50 PM
#17
Rage Held Back By Xbox 360's Limits
Id designer Tim Willits says significant content has been cut to cram game onto 360
During his Austin Game Developers Conference discussion on storytelling and technology, id Software lead designer Tim Willits the developer is cutting back on the amount of content they would have liked to include in their upcoming shooter Rage. The main reason for limiting the game's content is the Xbox 360's limited disc storage, which allows about six to eight GB of data.
"The PC is limitless in the amount of data you can put on it," said Willits. "The PS3 has about 25GB. But the Xbox 360 roughly has 6 to 8 GB of data. We're hoping we can squeeze the game down to two discs for the 360 version."
According to Willits, the game was supposed to feature several wastelands for the player to explore. Because of the limitations of the Xbox 360's media, they had to cut down the wastelands to only two, which are themselves split into multiple instances. These changes have been made across all versions of Rage, not just the 360 port.
"I wouldn't say the overall story was changed in any way in order to fit on the Xbox 360 version," Willits said, "but how the player experiences Rage's story has been altered." Unfortunately, that means the experience has been altered across all platforms. This is one of the first signs we've received of the 360's older DVD media showing its age, but we expect some fans won't be terribly pleased that it's affecting other versions of the game as well.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169963
-This truly sucks that the other systems are affected as well. I think theres more to this story than whats being reported. My guess is that the levels that were removed will show up through downloadable content if the game becomes a hit.
Id designer Tim Willits says significant content has been cut to cram game onto 360
During his Austin Game Developers Conference discussion on storytelling and technology, id Software lead designer Tim Willits the developer is cutting back on the amount of content they would have liked to include in their upcoming shooter Rage. The main reason for limiting the game's content is the Xbox 360's limited disc storage, which allows about six to eight GB of data.
"The PC is limitless in the amount of data you can put on it," said Willits. "The PS3 has about 25GB. But the Xbox 360 roughly has 6 to 8 GB of data. We're hoping we can squeeze the game down to two discs for the 360 version."
According to Willits, the game was supposed to feature several wastelands for the player to explore. Because of the limitations of the Xbox 360's media, they had to cut down the wastelands to only two, which are themselves split into multiple instances. These changes have been made across all versions of Rage, not just the 360 port.
"I wouldn't say the overall story was changed in any way in order to fit on the Xbox 360 version," Willits said, "but how the player experiences Rage's story has been altered." Unfortunately, that means the experience has been altered across all platforms. This is one of the first signs we've received of the 360's older DVD media showing its age, but we expect some fans won't be terribly pleased that it's affecting other versions of the game as well.
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3169963
-This truly sucks that the other systems are affected as well. I think theres more to this story than whats being reported. My guess is that the levels that were removed will show up through downloadable content if the game becomes a hit.
09-17-08, 01:05 AM
#19
09-17-08, 01:38 AM
#20
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
UPDATEWillits has informed ShackNews that no content has been cut from the game:
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/54780
During my talk today I mentioned that we originally wanted to have around 5 or 6 smaller wasteland environments but later decided instead to have 2 larger wastelands. Mostly because we were going to be shipping on two DVDs for the 360 and felt that it would play better with one large wasteland on each disc so there would be no loading between wastelands. Not loading levels while you drive around is a much better decision regardless of platform.
There was NO CONTENT removed from RAGE because of the 360--NONE AT ALL. Moving from multiple wastelands into fewer but larger wastelands was a far better decision and is actually giving us more gameplay in the game.
We feel the 360 is a great platform and will provide a fantastic Rage experience.
There was NO CONTENT removed from RAGE because of the 360--NONE AT ALL. Moving from multiple wastelands into fewer but larger wastelands was a far better decision and is actually giving us more gameplay in the game.
We feel the 360 is a great platform and will provide a fantastic Rage experience.
09-17-08, 08:20 AM
#21
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09-17-08, 02:34 PM
#22
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Carmack just sounds like a cry baby. For some reason I just get this childish impression of him, ever since I saw the first (macworld I think) presentation he gave of Rage. In that video he looked like he was still dressed by his Mum and had his hair cut with a salad bowl on top of it.
I know the dude has a tonne of money and is considered one of the best game programmers out there, but there's no excuse for someone to dress like that unless you're handicapped like Stephen Hawking or, are in fact, dressed by your mother.
So if Carmack is gonna have a winge, and Willits has to keep downplaying them, then I just won't buy the bloody game. There are plently of other A+ titles on the 360.
So Carmack, just go home and cry to your Mum. Maybe she can kiss your scraped knee better.
Rant over.
Just needed to let that out cause it was building up ever since seeing that video of him a while ago.
You may go about your business now.
I know the dude has a tonne of money and is considered one of the best game programmers out there, but there's no excuse for someone to dress like that unless you're handicapped like Stephen Hawking or, are in fact, dressed by your mother.
So if Carmack is gonna have a winge, and Willits has to keep downplaying them, then I just won't buy the bloody game. There are plently of other A+ titles on the 360.
So Carmack, just go home and cry to your Mum. Maybe she can kiss your scraped knee better.
Rant over.
Just needed to let that out cause it was building up ever since seeing that video of him a while ago.
You may go about your business now.
09-17-08, 03:11 PM
#24
DVD Talk Godfather
Carmack just sounds like a cry baby. For some reason I just get this childish impression of him, ever since I saw the first (macworld I think) presentation he gave of Rage. In that video he looked like he was still dressed by his Mum and had his hair cut with a salad bowl on top of it.
I know the dude has a tonne of money and is considered one of the best game programmers out there, but there's no excuse for someone to dress like that unless you're handicapped like Stephen Hawking or, are in fact, dressed by your mother.
So if Carmack is gonna have a winge, and Willits has to keep downplaying them, then I just won't buy the bloody game. There are plently of other A+ titles on the 360.
So Carmack, just go home and cry to your Mum. Maybe she can kiss your scraped knee better.
Rant over.
Just needed to let that out cause it was building up ever since seeing that video of him a while ago.
You may go about your business now.
I know the dude has a tonne of money and is considered one of the best game programmers out there, but there's no excuse for someone to dress like that unless you're handicapped like Stephen Hawking or, are in fact, dressed by your mother.
So if Carmack is gonna have a winge, and Willits has to keep downplaying them, then I just won't buy the bloody game. There are plently of other A+ titles on the 360.
So Carmack, just go home and cry to your Mum. Maybe she can kiss your scraped knee better.
Rant over.
Just needed to let that out cause it was building up ever since seeing that video of him a while ago.
You may go about your business now.
fmian, tell us how you really feel.
