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hahn
06-10-08, 01:32 PM
Good read:Relax, liberals. You've already won (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/06/10/liberals/index.html?source=rss&aim=/opinion/feature)
A few notable clips:

President Eisenhower was right in 1954, when he wrote his brother Edgar: "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid."
Once again, the American people said no to the counterrevolution of the radical right. In the midterm elections of 2006, the voters tossed the Republican Party out of control of both houses of Congress. Since then, the remaining neocons in the administration have been purged or marginalized, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, a pragmatic "paleoconservative" internationalist like Bush's father and James Baker, arrived to act as trustee in bankruptcy for the son's failed administration. The much-hyped "surge" in Iraq may have succeeded as a temporary tactic, but the right's global strategy is in tatters. By 2008, the catchphrases of the neoconservatives -- "unipolar moment," "regime change," "Pax Americana," "World War IV" -- all sounded quaint and retro, if not sinister. The right's counterrevolution in foreign policy has failed, as even Senator McCain, with his talk of multilateralism, recognizes now.
Today, however, Trilling's words are true again. The Buckleys and Friedmans have been replaced by Goldbergs and Coulters, and their obsessions -- denying the reality of evolution and global warming and blithering about "Islamofascism" and "liberal fascism" -- are accurately described as "irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas."
For the moment, however, the prospects for the moderate, reformist center left are better than they have been in nearly half a century. If it is hard for most conservatives to admit that they have lost, it is even harder for many liberals to admit that they have won. But sometimes history forces you to take yes for an answer.
I do take some level of comfort in this article. Now let's see if the American people do the right thing in November. Unfortunately, a great deal of damage has been done. Even if Obama wins (as he should), he has a long hard road ahead of him.

CRM114
06-10-08, 01:41 PM
"Their number is negligible and they are stupid."

I love Ike.

VinVega
06-10-08, 01:50 PM
There's an ebb and flow to politics. Things swung to the right after 1994 and I think the country has Conservative or Neocon fatigue now. I wouldn't try to mistake that as some sort of Liberal revolution though. They will get just as sick of Liberals after a certain period of time. We're pretty much a middle of the road country politically.

Th0r S1mpson
06-10-08, 01:58 PM
Yes, just relax. This one's over. Enjoy the summer and Fall!

B5Erik
06-10-08, 02:00 PM
The Republicans blew it, plain and simple.

They gave up being conservative when it comes to spending, and they totally lost focus after GW got elected. His mistakes were compounded by their mistakes, leading to where we are now.

Let's not forget, however, all the scandals and problems the Democrats had in the 80's and early 90's when they were the majority party. They blew it in their time, too.

Things are cyclical. This isn't a mandate, this is fatigue.

This is also symptomatic of a Republican party that is devoid of really strong leadership right now. They'll regroup, come up with new ideas, and new leaders will emerge and the whole thing will swing back the other way in 10-15 years.

SkullOrchard
06-10-08, 02:15 PM
Republicans stopped being Republicans and they deserve to lose. That doesn't mean that Democrats deserve to win.

cungar
06-10-08, 02:18 PM
Yes, just relax. This one's over. Enjoy the summer and Fall!

If you actually took the time to read the article instead of just the title, you'd realize it's not about the upcoming election. It's about the fact that Republicans have lost on every major issue of their so called Republican revolution.

B5Erik
06-10-08, 02:54 PM
If you actually took the time to read the article instead of just the title, you'd realize it's not about the upcoming election. It's about the fact that Republicans have lost on every major issue of their so called Republican revolution.
They didn't lose. They just forgot about them and went on to other things.

kvrdave
06-10-08, 03:06 PM
I fiugred this was about the fact that both McCain and Obama are liberals. :lol:

I do miss some things about the Clinton years. It was nice to see all the parts of liberalsims fight amongst each other. The Environmentalists want one thing, but it doesn't fit with what the Unions want, which doesn't matter to the Feminists, who want their own thing, etc.

I will enjoy that. And making fun of Obama, whether he deserves it or not. Just some petty payback to irritate people. I will blame him for things that happened under Bush, just because that is the way to go.

And I will enjoy watching the Republicans gain control of either the House or Senate or both in 2010 because when 1 part controls all three, we see people decide to vote that party out. Just like happened to Clinton, just like happened to Bush.

cungar
06-10-08, 03:11 PM
They didn't lose. They just forgot about them and went on to other things.

No they lost.

As the article points out.

For four decades, from 1968 to 2008, the counterrevolutionaries of the right waged war against the New Deal, liberal internationalism, and moral and cultural liberalism. They sought to abolish middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, to replace treaties and collective security with scorn for international law and U.S. global hegemony, and to reverse the trends toward individualism, secularism and pluralism in American culture.


And they failed. On every front conservatives have failed, completely, undeniably and irreversibly. The failure of the right has left the structure of 20th-century American liberalism standing, battered and cratered but still intact.

mosquitobite
06-10-08, 03:19 PM
Republicans stopped being Republicans and they deserve to lose. That doesn't mean that Democrats deserve to win.
:up:

Cungar, while it may sound nice to you that liberal ideals have "won" you're going to look pretty silly in 2010 or 2012 when conservatives again regain a majority. The party isn't dead, it just has piss poor leadership - and sadly McCain isn't the solution so this year, yes liberalism has won.

For example, I wouldn't count out the privatization of social security. As more and more baby boomers retire and the Gen Xr's and Yr's realize there'll be nothing left for them without massive tax hikes - the program WILL have to change. :shrug: Ignoring the problem will not keep it afloat.

kvrdave
06-10-08, 03:26 PM
No they lost.

As the article points out.

For four decades, from 1968 to 2008, the counterrevolutionaries of the right waged war against the New Deal, liberal internationalism, and moral and cultural liberalism. They sought to abolish middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, to replace treaties and collective security with scorn for international law and U.S. global hegemony, and to reverse the trends toward individualism, secularism and pluralism in American culture.


And they failed. On every front conservatives have failed, completely, undeniably and irreversibly. The failure of the right has left the structure of 20th-century American liberalism standing, battered and cratered but still intact.


rotfl

That's delusional. Even if you are the biggest liberal in the world, that is some crazy talk, if you actually believe it.

<img src=http://w3.gorge.net/kvrdave/kool.jpg>


Maybe you are just into hyperbole, but this is a million times worse.

bhk
06-10-08, 04:09 PM
That's delusional. Even if you are the biggest liberal in the world, that is some crazy talk, if you actually believe it.

Even crazier than believing that a lack of federal funds is what spreads HIV?

cungar
06-10-08, 04:28 PM
rotfl

That's delusional. Even if you are the biggest liberal in the world, that is some crazy talk, if you actually believe it.

<img src=http://w3.gorge.net/kvrdave/kool.jpg>


Maybe you are just into hyperbole, but this is a million times worse.

Please tell us what part of that statement is false instead of just saying it's crazy talk.

kvrdave
06-10-08, 04:39 PM
No they lost.

As the article points out.

For four decades, from 1968 to 2008, the counterrevolutionaries of the right waged war against the New Deal, liberal internationalism, and moral and cultural liberalism. They sought to abolish middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, to replace treaties and collective security with scorn for international law and U.S. global hegemony, and to reverse the trends toward individualism, secularism and pluralism in American culture.

Well, to start out, if they lost, they sure have been elected president a lot more often than the liberals. They didn't seek to abolish the things you you say they did, and you say they want to reverse things that are contradictory in their own right. They wanted to reverse the trends toward individualism and pluralism? You simply do not make sense. You speak like someone filled with bile rather than someone who has thought out a rational argument.


And they failed. On every front conservatives have failed, completely, undeniably and irreversibly. The failure of the right has left the structure of 20th-century American liberalism standing, battered and cratered but still intact.
So welfare reform didn't happen? The 80s didn't happen? The rich are taxed to death and corporate taxes are sky high? Higher than before 1968? Capital gains taxes are higher? Universal healthcare is a reality?

Someone, just as full of bile for liberals, could make the exact counter argument and have backed it up as well. You have an opinion, but it seems like a crazy one.

Lord Rick
06-11-08, 10:31 AM
The Republicans blew it, plain and simple.

They gave up being conservative when it comes to spending...

Please cite examples of a time when Republican politicians actually were conservative on spending. Seriously. I await your response.

Because as I've said before, Republican politicians talk incessantly about smaller government but they are some of the biggest offenders in *growing* government.

VinVega
06-11-08, 10:36 AM
Please cite examples of a time when Republican politicians actually were conservative on spending. Seriously. I await your response.

Because as I've said before, Republican politicians talk incessantly about smaller government but they are some of the biggest offenders in *growing* government.
Generally when they were in the minority in Congress they were all for less government spending. It's funny what happens when politicians get into the power positions. They generally try to stay there, their principles be damned. ;)

movielib
06-11-08, 10:44 AM
Please cite examples of a time when Republican politicians actually were conservative on spending. Seriously. I await your response.
Calvin Coolidge.

Ha! Thought I couldn't, didn't you!

wendersfan
06-11-08, 12:37 PM
Republicans are more fiscally parsimonious than Democrats, even when in the majority.
National Taxpayers Union ratings, average by party
-----------------------------
Democrats Republicans
-----------------------------
2001 15.29 66.97
2002 22.33 58.25
2003 23.53 65.10
2004 13.48 63.52
2005 15.96 61.37
2006 16.15 62.48
-----------------------------

orangecrush
06-11-08, 01:10 PM
Republicans are more fiscally parsimonious than Democrats, even when in the majority.
National Taxpayers Union ratings, average by party
-----------------------------
Democrats Republicans
-----------------------------
2001 15.29 66.97
2002 22.33 58.25
2003 23.53 65.10
2004 13.48 63.52
2005 15.96 61.37
2006 16.15 62.48
-----------------------------

I admit it, I had to look that one up.

mosquitobite
06-11-08, 01:34 PM
Republicans are more fiscally parsimonious than Democrats, even when in the majority.
National Taxpayers Union ratings, average by party
-----------------------------
Democrats Republicans
-----------------------------
2001 15.29 66.97
2002 22.33 58.25
2003 23.53 65.10
2004 13.48 63.52
2005 15.96 61.37
2006 16.15 62.48
-----------------------------


Do you have numbers back to say, 1994?

wendersfan
06-11-08, 01:47 PM
Do you have numbers back to say, 1994?I have access to the NTU ratings going back to 1969.

coli
06-11-08, 01:59 PM
There's an ebb and flow to politics. Things swung to the right after 1994 and I think the country has Conservative or Neocon fatigue now. I wouldn't try to mistake that as some sort of Liberal revolution though. They will get just as sick of Liberals after a certain period of time. We're pretty much a middle of the road country politically.

I totally agree, and this is what annoys me about the pundits when they assess every political season. Ever so often when a party is in power, they get thrown out, and the people make a change, simply cause they want.....a change! That is why you have had Presidents like Reagan, who was conservative, and Nixon who was anything but conservative. You have Clinton, who ran as a moderate democrat and you had George Bush Sr who was a moderate republican. Years later they elected his son who was Compassionate Conservative. The same thing goes for Congress, the Dem ruled from 1954-1994, and they got thrown out, and the republicans ruled from 1994-2006, and because of an unpopular war, they got thrown out.

The Country threw out Jimmy Carter in 1980 because he was perceived as weak on Foreign Policy with the Iran Hostage Crisis, yet George W Bush probably would have lost he ran for re-election for being too much of a Cowboy towards Foreign Policy. If Obama gets in and starts trying to play nice with all these dictators, then the people will probably go back in 4 years and want a cowboy in office from the Republicans.

The political parties have been arguing the same issues for the past 75 years, as Barry Goldwater ran on less government and only got 39% of the vote, yet Reagan ran on that same platform and won 51% and then 59%, and even Harry Truman ran on universal health coverage for all Americans in 1948, whose platform is like that in 2008?

VinVega
06-11-08, 02:01 PM
I have access to the NTU ratings going back to 1969.
Geez, he says it like it's a come on or something. -ohbfrank-

skeet thinks charts and graphs are sexy though, so maybe there's a possibility there.

orangecrush
06-11-08, 02:01 PM
I have access to the NTU ratings going back to 1969.
I bet you kill at parties.

wendersfan
06-11-08, 02:04 PM
I bet you kill at parties.You just have to know where to look:

library.cqpress.com

orangecrush
06-11-08, 02:27 PM
You just have to know where to look:

library.cqpress.com
The fact that you know where to look just proves my point ;)

CRM114
06-11-08, 02:35 PM
Does anyone actually know what the numbers wendersfan posted mean? I'm surpised there was no scatterplot. ;)

kvrdave
06-11-08, 02:38 PM
I admit it, I had to look that one up.

I assumed it refered to their parsimony.

kvrdave
06-11-08, 02:39 PM
Does anyone actually know what the numbers wendersfan posted mean? I'm surpised there was no scatterplot. ;)

No, but until we do, I assume it proves some point I made. Hopefully in this thread, even.

Red Dog
06-12-08, 09:04 AM
I've previously made the claim that all things considered, liberals have had it pretty good in the last 50 years. The New Deal has stood, plus you got the Great Society, and none of this has been rolled back (except for some tax cuts here and there). True, there hasn't been an equivalent social program to these since the 1960s, but in the areas of civil rights and religion, a liberal course has been taken, with less religion in government/society and vastly increased minority rights. Your typical carbon blob nowadays is conditioned to believe that government is best able to solve problems, clearly a liberal approach.

This is all despite the fact that the GOP has held the WH 9 of the last 14 terms and has made many more appointments to the SCt than Democrats have.

orangecrush
06-12-08, 09:08 AM
I've previously made the claim that all things considered, liberals have had it pretty good in the last 50 years. The New Deal has stood, plus you got the Great Society, and none of this has been rolled back (except for some tax cuts here and there). True, there hasn't been an equivalent social program to these since the 1960s, but in the areas of civil rights and religion, a liberal course has been taken, with less religion in government/society and vastly increased minority rights. Your typical carbon blob nowadays is conditioned to believe that government is best able to solve problems, clearly a liberal approach.

This is all despite the fact that the GOP has held the WH 9 of the last 14 terms and has made many more appointments to the SCt than Democrats have.
I think in general you are right. However, the general opinion of the population still seems to lean center/right (more center than right). It seems to me that the majority of people would probably fall into the socially liberal; fiscally conservative/moderate categories.

CRM114
06-12-08, 09:57 AM
This is all despite the fact that the GOP has held the WH 9 of the last 14 terms and has made many more appointments to the SCt than Democrats have.

Because even the GOP knows we're right. ;)

Red Dog
06-12-08, 10:08 AM
No. It's because the GOP is too scared to actually follow through with the promises they make.

CRM114
06-12-08, 10:22 AM
No. It's because the GOP is too scared to actually follow through with the promises they make.

Because they know we're right and they know the PEOPLE know we're right.

wendersfan
06-12-08, 10:24 AM
I think in general you are right. However, the general opinion of the population still seems to lean center/right (more center than right). It seems to me that the majority of people would probably fall into the socially liberal; fiscally conservative/moderate categories.These things are really hard to pin down (if they were easy half the political scientists in the country would be out of a job.) When asked, most people say the are moderates. Slightly more people claim to be conservatives than claim to be liberals. So, based on self-identification, the country leans center-right. Yet, when asked about specific issues or policies, most people advocate more government - the government should spend more money helping poor people*, providing free lunches to school kids, helping those affected by unemployment, those without health insurance, etc. Basically, most people want a tight-fisted government that spends lots of money helping people. Hence, Republican politicians who don't cut funding.

* This is an excellent case in point. When people are asked if we should cut money for "welfare", they say yes. But when asked if we should cut money given to poor families (essentially, what welfare is) they say no. The term "welfare" has been stigmatized as a political tactic. While the CW is that the typical welfare recipient is a black person living in a big city in a liberal, blue state, it's really a white person living in a small town in a red, conservative state.


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