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Does "social justice" have any substantial disagreements with "socialism"? [Archive] - DVD Talk Forum

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grundle
05-24-08, 04:12 PM
People who use the phrase "social justice" tend to be pretty vague about what the phrase means. But the only thing that seems to be pretty clear in all of their writings, at least from what I have been able to see, is that they don't have any substantial disagreements with the ideas of "socialism."

Therefore, it seems to me that the people who use the phrase "social justice" are socialists who are trying to disguise their beliefs under a different name.

Am I mistaken about this?

Is there anything about the "social justice" movement that has any substantial disagreements with the ideas of "socialism"?

JasonF
05-24-08, 04:43 PM
Socialism is a particular political philosophy that holds that the state should control all property and wealth.

Social justice is an abstract political philosophy that holds that society should strive toward justice in all aspects. It has been used by those on the left to stand for ideas like progressive taxation, but it has also been used by those on the right to champion free markets and eqaulity of opportunity. Its most famous expression is probably in the philosophical writings of John Rawls.

This is all laid out in wikipedia, so I'm surprised you have to ask about it.

Ranger
05-24-08, 04:50 PM
I thought social justice was a common phrase used by leftist Latin leaders like Chavez. I don't think they pretend not to be socialists.

I haven't heard an American politcian use the phrase.

grundle
05-24-08, 05:20 PM
Socialism is a particular political philosophy that holds that the state should control all property and wealth.

Social justice is an abstract political philosophy that holds that society should strive toward justice in all aspects. It has been used by those on the left to stand for ideas like progressive taxation, but it has also been used by those on the right to champion free markets and eqaulity of opportunity. Its most famous expression is probably in the philosophical writings of John Rawls.

This is all laid out in wikipedia, so I'm surprised you have to ask about it.

Could you please quote someone who favors social justice but who criticizes socialism?

I didn't know I could read wikipeidia. I thought I could only write for it.

grundle
05-24-08, 05:22 PM
I thought social justice was a common phrase used by leftist Latin leaders like Chavez. I don't think they pretend not to be socialists.

I haven't heard an American politcian use the phrase.



Yep - Chavez has certainly never said anything bad about socialism.

JasonF
05-24-08, 05:26 PM
Could you please quote someone who favors social justice but who criticizes socialism?

Let's Deploy the 'Little Platoons'
A conservative vision of social justice.
by IAIN DUNCAN SMITH AND RICK SANTORUM
Friday, September 23, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT

For all the differences between the United States and Europe, we share a common challenge: how to improve the social well-being of our citizens without a massive growth in the size and intrusiveness of government. We're convinced that conservatism--properly understood--offers the surest road to social justice.

In many conservative circles, "social justice" is synonymous with socialism or radical individualism. No wonder: For decades, the political left has used it as a Trojan horse for its big-state agenda. Yet the wreckage of their policies is obvious. Compared to the U.S., most European economies are struggling with inflation, unemployment, low growth and a declining tax base; nearly all European societies are burdened with increased crime and family breakdown; and there is a draining away of hope and opportunity.

Conservatives on both sides of the Atlantic and beyond are charting a new vision of social justice. It recognizes that the problems caused or aggravated by the growth in government cannot be corrected by a crude reduction in its size. Policy must also deliberately foster the growth of what Edmund Burke called "the little platoons" of civil society: families, neighborhood associations, private enterprises, charities and churches. These are the real source of economic growth and social vitality.





The social justice agenda we endorse is grounded in social conservatism. That means helping the poor discover the dignity of work, rather than making them wards of the state. It means locking up violent criminals, but offering nonviolent offenders lots of help to become responsible citizens. It endorses a policy of "zero tolerance" toward drug use and sexual trafficking, yet insists that those struggling with all manner of addictions can start their lives afresh.
In America, this vision emerged a decade ago with bold conservative initiatives aimed at empowering individuals and grassroots groups helping the nation's neediest, such as the Community Renewal Act and other antipoverty initiatives. Today's CARE Act is part of the same tradition. Likewise, the Bush administration's plan to create a Gulf Opportunity Zone after Hurricane Katrina would offer tax relief and small-business loans to support a culture of entrepreneurship.

Britain and America have long enjoyed a healthy exchange of ideas. British Conservatives are learning from America's experiences with zero-tolerance policing, welfare reform and school choice. George W. Bush's vision of an "ownership society" owes a great deal to the legacy of Margaret Thatcher. These efforts seek to empower individuals and families, not bureaucracies, and unleash the creativity and generosity of neighbor helping neighbor.

The first international conference of social-justice conservatives will convene next week in Washington. We will be sharing experiences of domestic poverty-fighting, but we're also coming together to forge a global movement of like-minded conservatives. We will be launching a network to promote conservative responses to issues such as HIV/AIDS, world hunger and the enslavement and trafficking of human beings.

Addressing these social problems that have worsened over many decades will take years. "The most important of all revolutions," Burke wrote, is "a revolution in sentiments, manners and moral opinions." Yet we believe that social-justice conservatism can produce societies that are more humane than anything liberalism could accomplish. As we build a conservative alternative--a vision informed both by idealism and realism--we have evidence, experience and common sense on our side.

Mr. Duncan Smith, a British MP, is a former leader of the Conservative Party. Mr. Santorum is a Republican senator for Pennsylvania.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007299

See also http://www.cesj.org/about/aboutcesj.htm

Ranger
05-24-08, 05:57 PM
Yep - Chavez has certainly never said anything bad about socialism.
Ah, has Chavez said he is not a socialist?

You're the one who started this thread on this claim. Where's your proof?
Therefore, it seems to me that the people who use the phrase "social justice" are socialists who are trying to disguise their beliefs under a different name.

NCMojo
05-24-08, 06:12 PM
You know, even for a grundle thread, this is pretty insanely stupid.

Hey, is there a substantial difference between "communion" and "communism"? Aren't a failed political system and a holy sacrament pretty much the same thing? And what about "flower" and "flour" -- they sound the same, so can't I eat my gardenias?

crazyronin
05-24-08, 07:05 PM
And what about "flower" and "flour" -- they sound the same, so can't I eat my gardenias?

Yes. Yes you can. (http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/7067)

Oh, I'm sorry. Was that rhetorical? :o

VinVega
05-24-08, 11:45 PM
This is all laid out in wikipedia, so I'm surprised you have to ask about it.
It allowed him to make another "grundle-poll." ;)

grundle
05-25-08, 08:34 AM
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007299

See also http://www.cesj.org/about/aboutcesj.htm



That's great! Thanks!

grundle
05-25-08, 08:36 AM
Ah, has Chavez said he is not a socialist?

You're the one who started this thread on this claim. Where's your proof?


I said "it seems to me," so it was my opinion, not a fact.

grundle
05-25-08, 08:38 AM
You know, even for a grundle thread, this is pretty insanely stupid.

Hey, is there a substantial difference between "communion" and "communism"? Aren't a failed political system and a holy sacrament pretty much the same thing? And what about "flower" and "flour" -- they sound the same, so can't I eat my gardenias?


Thanks!

It's not because they sound the same. It's because many of the people who favor "social justice" favor higher taxes and more government control of the economy.

But now I see there are some conservatives who also favor "social justice" too.

classicman2
05-25-08, 08:41 AM
Try as he may, grundle will never be able to top this thread.

There are a plethora of American politicians who promote social justice through social programs and the graduated income tax & a number of other means.

They hardly promote socialism. John Edwards come quickly to mind.

MLK, it can be argued, promoted social justice. Now some folks (I'm not one of them) felt that he promoted socialist ideas. I don't see any evidence of it; and, I've read the conspiratorial theories of the 'red college' in Mena, AR. ;)

classicman2
05-25-08, 08:42 AM
grundle,

Newsflash: The promoting of higher taxes doesn't mean the promotion of socialism. :rolleyes:

classicman2
05-25-08, 08:52 AM
Lyndon B. Johnson, when he was President, promoted social justice. I see no evidence that he promoted socialism.

And Harry S. Truman, when he was President, promoted social justice. I fail to see where Harry promoted socialism.

Perhaps grundle & those of his ilk can enlighten me.

Of course folks with the mindset of grundle believe that universal health care in the United States is promoting socialism.

bhk
05-25-08, 09:49 AM
Nowadays, when someone uses the phrase "social justice" it usually means "we're going to forcibly confiscate money from you to fund our pet project."
Doesn't have too much to do with socialism though.

Venusian
05-26-08, 12:04 PM
I've heard the term "social justice" used primarily in Christian circles, mostly emergent.

grundle
05-26-08, 03:51 PM
Lyndon B. Johnson, when he was President, promoted social justice. I see no evidence that he promoted socialism.




True.

And I see no evidence that he was critical of socialism.

grundle
05-26-08, 03:52 PM
Nowadays, when someone uses the phrase "social justice" it usually means "we're going to forcibly confiscate money from you to fund our pet project."
Doesn't have too much to do with socialism though.



Of course most of the people who want to "forcibly confiscate money from you to fund our pet project" don't usually disagree with socialism either.

grundle
05-26-08, 03:54 PM
There are many things wrong with the above.

First of all, Socialism is far more abstract and diverse than the notion of "social justice", which is better circumscribed. Basically, "social justice" holds that society should guarantee an outcome that is held as just. All people have a basic, fundamental right to a humane standard of living, and the State must have the power to intervene, shape and mold society to achieve it. "Social justice" is concerned above all with attaining a desired and well-defined state of affairs, whereas Socialism at large is more theoretically complex, heterogeneous and academic. "Social justice" is an utilitarian concept, whereas the State in Socialism is held as a good in iteself.

"Social justice" as enunciated today, attempts to salvage the hopes that crumbled with the collapse of Communism by not making them subservient to a defunct programme, though in practice of course they entail much of the same.



I think many of the people who use the phrase "social justice" are on the radical left, and favor socialism. But not all.

grundle
05-26-08, 03:55 PM
I've heard the term "social justice" used primarily in Christian circles, mostly emergent.


I've heard it used there to some degree, but not primarily.

classicman2
05-26-08, 04:07 PM
True.

And I see no evidence that he was critical of socialism.

I assume he figured it wasn't necessary to be critical of socialism. He felt that most Americans were observant enough to realize that.

Good thing you weren't around then. :lol:

eXcentris
05-26-08, 05:36 PM
I think many of the people who use the phrase "social justice" are on the radical left, and favor socialism. But not all.

:hscratch:

It's a term commonly used in social democracies (like Canada for example), regardless of political leaning. It is based on the belief that individual rights need to be balanced against was is deemed "socially equitable" for the population as a whole. Oh, and it has nothing to do with "socialism".

JasonF
05-26-08, 05:58 PM
This is just plain stupid.

Just so I understand, is it your position that Rick Santorum -- who co-authored an op-ed advocating "social justice" -- is a socialist?

movielib
05-26-08, 06:09 PM
I agree with Vandelay - at least insofar as I understand his five syllable words.

eXcentris
05-26-08, 06:11 PM
This is just plain stupid.

It has nothing to do with the meaning silly Americans normally attribute to the word ("socialism").

Is that better? :)

eXcentris
05-26-08, 06:29 PM
Yeah, and in my view, they use "socialism" as a booga! booga! term and they still don't have a fucking clue what it means. :lol:


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