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VinVega
05-07-08, 01:37 PM
And begin.

Previous thread HERE (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?p=8670918#post8670918)

slop101
05-07-08, 02:22 PM
Jumping off of the comment that Obama has "little chance this November", I wanted to reiterate that if Obama's side hammers home the point that a McCain administration would essentially be a continuation of the Bush administration, he could stand a pretty good chance.

VinVega
05-07-08, 02:48 PM
Jumping off of the comment that Obama has "little chance this November", I wanted to reiterate that if Obama's side hammers home the point that a McCain administration would essentially be a continuation of the Bush administration, he could stand a pretty good chance.
They will have to tie McCain to Bush somehow to beat him. The Republicans will use their usual character assassination to try to take down Obama. The race is going to be very close I think.

Tracer Bullet
05-07-08, 02:52 PM
They will have to tie McCain to Bush somehow to beat him. The Republicans will use their usual character assassination to try to take down Obama. The race is going to be very close I think.

I think you'll see some of this, but it's not going to work very well. Clinton has already tried a lot of the same tactics and look where that's gotten her.

Th0r S1mpson
05-07-08, 02:56 PM
The only thing McCain has to in order to beat Obama is keep breathing. Of course, it's risky giving odds on that.

slop101
05-07-08, 03:00 PM
The only thing McCain has to in order to beat Obama is keep breathing. Of course, it's risky giving odds on that.So what you're saying is that Obama has this thing tied up.

Have you seen McCain recently? He looks like he aged 5 years in the last 5 months.

Shannon Nutt
05-07-08, 03:11 PM
The only thing McCain has to in order to beat Obama is keep breathing. Of course, it's risky giving odds on that.

Oh please, the Republicans could dig Reagan up and still have trouble winning in the Fall. Americans are pissed off right now, and another Republican term is NOT in the cards. National/general election polls mean NOTHING until after the conventions...we'll see where McCain is then.

The Bus
05-07-08, 03:25 PM
The election is six months away. I wonder how many people thought Obama would get the nomination last November?

wendersfan
05-07-08, 03:27 PM
The election is six months away. I wonder how many people thought Obama would get the nomination last November?Did anyone catch Russert's comment last night where he dug up an issue of National Journal from last year with the cover store "who can beat Hillary?", and it had pictures of eight other Democrats across the bottom, but Obama wasn't one of them?

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 03:29 PM
They will have to tie McCain to Bush somehow to beat him. The Republicans will use their usual character assassination to try to take down Obama. The race is going to be very close I think.

So....the Democrats tying McCain to Bush is just politics, but the Republicans going after Obama on anything is "character assassination"?

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 03:31 PM
The only thing McCain has to in order to beat Obama is keep breathing. Of course, it's risky giving odds on that.

The only thing McCain can do to beat Obama in Nov is to get a real conservative as a running mate.

FunkDaddy J
05-07-08, 03:46 PM
The election is six months away. I wonder how many people thought Obama would get the nomination last November?

:wave:

bhk
05-07-08, 03:48 PM
So....the Democrats tying McCain to Bush is just politics, but the Republicans going after Obama on anything is "character assassination"?
That's Part A. Part B is: When republicans bring up the actual votes of a Demcrat candidate, that's playing politics of personal destruction.

The Antipodean
05-07-08, 03:49 PM
Age is going to be a much bigger factor for McCain than anyone seems to realise. Americans don't want a president old enough to be their grandpa, and if he picks someone like Huckabee or Romeny to be his running mate, it's going to freak a lot of people out.

mosquitobite
05-07-08, 03:50 PM
The only thing McCain can do to beat Obama in Nov is to get a real conservative as a running mate.

I agree with this. If McCain tries to run a moderate as his VP choice, I don't think he has a chance in hell of winning come November.

I agree with Thor's assessment of the reason people are unhappy is because of the centrist crap we're getting out of Washington. Neither side feels its positions are winning, and thus everyone is unhappy.

I really do think we need someone like Obama, who is likely to run far left to get the country back on track. McCain will be more of the same for sure.

The Bus
05-07-08, 04:25 PM
Did anyone catch Russert's comment last night where he dug up an issue of National Journal from last year with the cover store "who can beat Hillary?", and it had pictures of eight other Democrats across the bottom, but Obama wasn't one of them?

I've always had a weird feeling with Obama. I guess he just has the type of natural charisma that I haven't seen from politicians in a long time. In <s>early 2007</s> late 2006, I turned on the TV on a Sunday morning and saw Obama at the beginning of Meet the Press. I called my girlfriend over and said, "Look, this might be the next president of the United States."

Then again McCain also seemed derailed for most of 2006 and 2007. And here we prove classicman2's punditry:

Red Dog & I have stated time and time again that McCain will not be the nominee of the party...

He's finished - actually he was finished before he ever got started.

And VinVega's:

predicting [McCain] wouldnt get the nom is easy. predicting when he'll drop out is the hard part.

To be fair, this was sort of the conventional wisdom in the media at the time. Quotes are from <a href="http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=506000">this thread</a>.

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 04:25 PM
Age is going to be a much bigger factor for McCain than anyone seems to realise. Americans don't want a president old enough to be their grandpa, and if he picks someone like Huckabee or Romeny to be his running mate, it's going to freak a lot of people out.

Why would they freak out?

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 04:28 PM
I really do think we need someone like Obama, who is likely to run far left to get the country back on track. McCain will be more of the same for sure.

Running "far left" to appeal to everyone so he can "fix" what's wrong with the country OR that the country can only be fixed if we adopt more "far left" policies?

mhg83
05-07-08, 04:30 PM
Since McCain is pretty old i was curious: When Clinton or Obama win the nomination and go head to head with McCain what would happen if McCain were to have a heart attack or die? Would Obama or Clinton automatically win or would there have to be a new Republican chosen to run against him or her?

Th0r S1mpson
05-07-08, 04:31 PM
Americans don't want a president old enough to be their grandpa
Anyone who slept with my grandmother is good enough for me! :up:

Since McCain is pretty old i was curious: When Clinton or Obama win the nomination and go head to head with McCain what would happen if McCain were to have a heart attack or die? Would Obama or Clinton automatically win or would there have to be a new Republican chosen to run against him or her?

I believe the default is the governor of California, and all exemptions are nullified in such an instance.

wendersfan
05-07-08, 04:31 PM
So....the Democrats tying McCain to Bush is just politics, but the Republicans going after Obama on anything is "character assassination"?Who is saying this?

wendersfan
05-07-08, 04:32 PM
The only thing McCain can do to beat Obama in Nov is to get a real conservative as a running mate.
I'm pretty sure he's gonna pick a Republican, so I guess he has no shot?

dork
05-07-08, 04:35 PM
Anyone who slept with my grandmother is good enough for me! :up:

Then why aren't you nicer toward me? :(

Th0r S1mpson
05-07-08, 04:49 PM
Then why aren't you nicer toward me? :(

I hadn't read her diary in a while, my apologies. I love you, dork.

JasonF
05-07-08, 04:58 PM
To be fair, this was sort of the conventional wisdom in the media at the time. Quotes are from <a href="http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=506000">this thread</a>.

Looking back on the first 15 parts of this fiasco of a thread is always good for a laugh:

In November, 2008, 2 Southerners - John Edwards & Mike Huckabee will square off against each other to see who will be the next President of the United States.

Barack might have a good chance but I don't think he'll get very far.

And this gem from Valentines Day, 2007:


My predictions are for a Barack Obama- John McCain finale. With Obama pulling the upset. I think as highly of Barack Obama as I do of my own family. When Barack speaks I listen.

Piece of advice - don't bet the farm on it.

As a matter of fact - don't bet anything on it.

JasonF
05-07-08, 05:16 PM
Senator John "I'm not that old" McCain made reference yesterday to his proposed organization of allies to supplement the U.N. This proposed organization is known as the "League of Democracies." Unfortunately, Senator McCain made a little slip of the tongue and referred instead to the "League of Nations."

And then there's this:

ZxpqqxEgskE

Tracer Bullet
05-07-08, 05:47 PM
Since McCain is pretty old i was curious: When Clinton or Obama win the nomination and go head to head with McCain what would happen if McCain were to have a heart attack or die? Would Obama or Clinton automatically win or would there have to be a new Republican chosen to run against him or her?

Well, first off, there will undoubtedly be more than two candidates running for president in November, so no one will "automatically" become president.

That said, I have no idea what would happen. The Republicans would of course find someone else to be their nominee. You might see efforts to get that Republican onto the ballot, but it might be too late for that. You might see a tacit "agreement" whereby the electors consider a vote for McCain to be a vote for the Republican nominee.

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 06:02 PM
Who is saying this?


VinVega (http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showpost.php?p=8671171&postcount=3)

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 06:03 PM
I'm pretty sure he's gonna pick a Republican, so I guess he has no shot?

You do realize that there's a difference between a Republican and a Conservative, right?

VinVega
05-07-08, 06:04 PM
If I were one of those people who whine about generalizations I'd say:

Nice generalization. :rolleyes:

But I'm not one of those people.

Generalization rules are silly.
Many people have argued that the Swift Boat ads against John Kerry were the defining moment in the 2004 race. That really didn't have much of anything to do with his policies.

We've already heard talk of ads running Obama's wife's comments about being proud for the first time in her life and his lack of his hand over his heart or flag lapel pin. If they run these types of ads, they have nothing to do with policy and just look to generate a knee jerk reaction from voters. Frankly those are character assassination tactics that have nothing to do with potential policies. These ideas for attack ads are already leaking out on a lot of the talking head shows in Washington.

I think the Democrats trying to paint McCain as a Bush clone is also untrue since he disagreed with the Bush administration on a number of issues, but the main fodder of the argument will be his policy stances, not whether he had a flag pin on his suit jacket.

MartinBlank
05-07-08, 06:21 PM
Many people have argued that the Swift Boat ads against John Kerry were the defining moment in the 2004 race. That really didn't have much of anything to do with his policies.

We've already heard talk of ads running Obama's wife's comments about being proud for the first time in her life and his lack of his hand over his heart or flag lapel pin. If they run these types of ads, they have nothing to do with policy and just look to generate a knee jerk reaction from voters. Frankly those are character assassination tactics that have nothing to do with potential policies. These ideas for attack ads are already leaking out on a lot of the talking head shows in Washington.

I think the Democrats trying to paint McCain as a Bush clone is also untrue since he disagreed with the Bush administration on a number of issues, but the main fodder of the argument will be his policy stances, not whether he had a flag pin on his suit jacket.

Y/N: Is a candidate's character important?

VinVega
05-07-08, 06:34 PM
Y/N: Is a candidate's character important?
Their positions on policy are far more important than their character. I wouldn't let my teenage daughter take an internship with the Bill Clinton White House, but I'd trust Bill to do the right thing as far as running the country.

Red Dog
05-07-08, 06:52 PM
I'm curious to know what kind of conservative that McCain needs acc'd to the people here saying that McCain needs to pick a conservative to have a chance.

He obviously doesn't need a neo-con. He's got that covered all by himself no problem.

Does he need a bible-thumper or a fiscal conservative (which are hard to find in the GOP nowadays) or simply a tax-cutter who doesn't give a rat's ass about spending (of which there are plenty in the GOP), or a Tancredo-run-all-the-Mexicans-out-type.

Examples would help too.

classicman2
05-07-08, 06:59 PM
VinVega,

In the interest of fairness, and I believe the members of the forum (especially the moderators) should be fair, ;) the Democrats used character assassination aginst George W. Bush also.

The difference is that the Repubs seem to be more effective with the tactic.

slop101
05-07-08, 07:28 PM
And then there's this:

ZxpqqxEgskEPutin's already president of Germany? Shit! We better get our ass in gear and do something about this before we get another Eastern Block on our hands...

Red Dog
05-07-08, 07:34 PM
Iron Curtain all over again. :lol:

VinVega
05-07-08, 07:44 PM
VinVega,

In the interest of fairness, and I believe the members of the forum (especially the moderators) should be fair, ;) the Democrats used character assassination aginst George W. Bush also.

The difference is that the Repubs seem to be more effective with the tactic.
I didn't say that they didn't do it. I said, "To win, this is what they have to do..."

And I didn't say that the flag pin, or Reverend Wright, or Obama's wife's remarks wouldn't be tremendously effective. I just despise that kind of politics. I was not proud of the whole draft dodging effort the Dems put against Bush either. It's immaterial.

VinVega
05-07-08, 07:46 PM
I make mistakes like that all the time. No big deal.
:lol: You've had some gaffs but even you know which country Putin's running. ;)

Numanoid
05-07-08, 07:47 PM
I've always had a weird feeling with Obama. I guess he just has the type of natural charisma that I haven't seen from politicians in a long time. In <s>early 2007</s> late 2006, I turned on the TV on a Sunday morning and saw Obama at the beginning of Meet the Press. I called my girlfriend over and said, "Look, this might be the next president of the United States."I can't find the thread (probably long gone), but this is what I posted in this forum about ten minutes after Barack Obama's speech at the 2004 Dem convention:"Mark my words, Barack Obama will one day be President of the United States."

VinVega
05-07-08, 07:51 PM
I'm curious to know what kind of conservative that McCain needs acc'd to the people here saying that McCain needs to pick a conservative to have a chance.

He obviously doesn't need a neo-con. He's got that covered all by himself no problem.

Does he need a bible-thumper or a fiscal conservative (which are hard to find in the GOP nowadays) or simply a tax-cutter who doesn't give a rat's ass about spending (of which there are plenty in the GOP), or a Tancredo-run-all-the-Mexicans-out-type.

Examples would help too.
I think he needs a tax-cutting bible thumper. Someone to rile up the base. McCain will work on moderate Repubs and Indies. He needs someone to make sure the Karl Rove strategy of firing up the base works yet again. Not sure who would fit that bill though. Maybe a Rick Santorum kind of guy. I mean, there's probably only going to one VP debate. The rest of the time he can be out on the stump riling up the troops. He needs someone removed from a lot of association with Bush though.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 08:04 PM
A tongue (or keyboard) slip is different than a brain slip.

Truer words were never spoken. Does anybody really think that McCain doesn't know what goddamn country Putin commands? If you do, it's time you examined your own intellect. Send me a PM and I'll do it for you, if you don't have the time.

DVD Polizei
05-07-08, 08:14 PM
But he's made mistakes like this all the time. With Iran and Iraq on several occasions.

Willy
05-07-08, 08:17 PM
But he's made mistakes like this all the time. With Iran and Iraq on several occasions.


Yeap, imagine how many screw ups there will be by the time nov comes around, Obama will have to buy hour long segments on the halmark channel to air them all.

VinVega
05-07-08, 08:18 PM
But he's made mistakes like this all the time. With Iran and Iraq on several occasions.
Crappy public speaking. Another similarity with Bush. ;)

Red Dog
05-07-08, 08:22 PM
I think he needs a tax-cutting bible thumper. Someone to rile up the base. McCain will work on moderate Repubs and Indies. He needs someone to make sure the Karl Rove strategy of firing up the base works yet again. Not sure who would fit that bill though. Maybe a Rick Santorum kind of guy. I mean, there's probably only going to one VP debate. The rest of the time he can be out on the stump riling up the troops. He needs someone removed from a lot of association with Bush though.


I assume when you say Rick Santorum-kind of guy, you don't mean Rick Santorum. ;) Is there is a non-loser Rick Santorum out there?

Red Dog
05-07-08, 08:23 PM
Just think about McCain making calls in the WH Sit Room. Even beyond the verbal brainfarts, I shudder to think of the possibilities.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 08:49 PM
Ugh. I was hoping that with Bush out of the picture these silly arguments would be gone. I guess not.

shadowhawk2020
05-07-08, 09:03 PM
Truer words were never spoken. Does anybody really think that McCain doesn't know what goddamn country Putin commands? If you do, it's time you examined your own intellect. Send me a PM and I'll do it for you, if you don't have the time.


I'll take on of those quizes if you want to email it to me. Of course he knows what country Putin commands. At his age he just can't get those words to his mouth ;)

Dimension X
05-07-08, 09:08 PM
I didn't say that they didn't do it. I said, "To win, this is what they have to do..."

And I didn't say that the flag pin, or Reverend Wright, or Obama's wife's remarks wouldn't be tremendously effective. I just despise that kind of politics. I was not proud of the whole draft dodging effort the Dems put against Bush either. It's immaterial.
Well, yeah. You didn't say a lot of things. Since it's kind of hard to infer what you meant by what you didn't say, let's take a look at what you did say:
They will have to tie McCain to Bush somehow to beat him. The Republicans will use their usual character assassination to try to take down Obama. The race is going to be very close I think.
Now from this, I (and judging from the responses, perhaps others) inferred that you were saying the Dems will make substantive policy arguments against McCain in order to tie him to Bush, while the Reps will "use their usual character assassination," not substantive policy arguments, against Obama. In other words, you appeared to be making a one-sided generalization favorable to the Dems.

When you were called on it, you responded:
Many people have argued that the Swift Boat ads against John Kerry were the defining moment in the 2004 race. That really didn't have much of anything to do with his policies.

We've already heard talk of ads running Obama's wife's comments about being proud for the first time in her life and his lack of his hand over his heart or flag lapel pin. If they run these types of ads, they have nothing to do with policy and just look to generate a knee jerk reaction from voters. Frankly those are character assassination tactics that have nothing to do with potential policies. These ideas for attack ads are already leaking out on a lot of the talking head shows in Washington.

I think the Democrats trying to paint McCain as a Bush clone is also untrue since he disagreed with the Bush administration on a number of issues, but the main fodder of the argument will be his policy stances, not whether he had a flag pin on his suit jacket.
In this post you equivocate by saying "if [the Republicans] run these types of ads" (so it's no longer a fait accompli), such ads will "have nothing to do with policy and just look to generate a knee jerk reaction from voters," but you go on to reiterate your stance that "the main fodder of the [Dem's] argument will be [McCain's] policy stances."

It basically reads the same as your first post to me: Republican ads will be "character assassination attempts," while Democrat ads will be policy driven.

Maybe I'm the only one who interpreted it that way. :shrug:

sracer
05-07-08, 09:15 PM
Y/N: Is a candidate's character important?
Of course not. A candidate's character hasn't REALLY been important for quite a long time.

If it were, these three yutzes wouldn't be the last ones standing. (not that the ones who bowed out were any prizes either)

slop101
05-07-08, 09:15 PM
I make mistakes like that all the time. No big deal.But you're not running for president. If you were, I wouldn't vote for you, what with all these mistakes you make all the time...

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:18 PM
I'll take on of those quizes if you want to email it to me. Of course he knows what country Putin commands. At his age he just can't get those words to his mouth ;)

No quiz involved. I just take every verbal gaffe you've ever made and subtract it from your starting score of 100 and divide it by your age. A foolproof formula, I'm sure.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:22 PM
But you're not running for president. If you were, I wouldn't vote for you, what with all these mistakes you make all the time...

Are you looking for a President who doesn't make mistakes? Good luck, man. Let me know when you find him (or her).

DVD Polizei
05-07-08, 09:29 PM
If he makes this many mistakes now, just wait until he's under pressure.

McCain: "We need to bomb Iraq."
WH Military Advisors: "I think you mean Iran."
McCain: "Yeah, I mean Germany."
WH Military Advisors: "Huh?"
McCain: "I mean Russia. Al-Sadr is hiding in Russia. We'll go in through Israel, kill any terrorists in Jerusalem, and then move into Afghanistan."
WH Military Advisors: "Fuck! I wish Bush was back in office!"

Red Dog
05-07-08, 09:36 PM
Ugh. I was hoping that with Bush out of the picture these silly arguments would be gone. I guess not.


You're right. I apologize. I'll give credit where credit is due: McCain did get the lyrics of the "Bomb Iran" song correct.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:44 PM
If he makes this many mistakes now, just wait until he's under pressure.

McCain: "We need to bomb Iraq."
WH Military Advisors: "I think you mean Iran."
McCain: "Yeah, I mean Germany."
WH Military Advisors: "Huh?"
McCain: "I mean Russia. Al-Sadr is hiding in Russia. We'll go in through Israel, kill any terrorists in Jerusalem, and then move into Afghanistan."
WH Military Advisors: "Fuck! I wish Bush was back in office!"

Yeah, that's probably what will happen, what with that crazy bastard McCain being so old and so confused and all. If you were making a joke, you need to ask the Jon Stewart School of Humor for your money back.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:49 PM
You're right. I apologize. I'll give credit where credit is due: McCain did get the lyrics of the "Bomb Iran" song correct.

Okay. Uh, what were we talking about again?

shadowhawk2020
05-07-08, 09:50 PM
No quiz involved. I just take every verbal gaffe you've ever made and subtract it from your starting score of 100 and divide it by your age. A foolproof formula, I'm sure.


I know my score would be VERY low. Luckily I never have to talk to foreign leaders, or lead the free world. No one is mistake free, however, as we get older we lose some of our mental abilities.

DVD Polizei
05-07-08, 09:51 PM
Yeah, that's probably what will happen, what with that crazy bastard McCain being so old and so confused and all. If you were making a joke, you need to ask the Jon Stewart School of Humor for your money back.

But I wasn't making a joke.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:57 PM
I know my score would be VERY low. Luckily I never have to talk to foreign leaders, or lead the free world. No one is mistake free, however, as we get older we lose some of our mental abilities.

I can live with that. Mentality is a legitimate issue, and age can be a real factor. Age's effect does, however, vary from person to person and I, personally, don't think McCain's mistakes are evidence of senility. But that's something we all have to decide for ourselves.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 09:58 PM
But I wasn't making a joke.

I beg to differ.

classicman2
05-07-08, 10:07 PM
politics. I was not proud of the whole draft dodging effort the Dems put against Bush either. It's immaterial.

Well - I wouldn't go that far. ;)

VinVega
05-07-08, 10:10 PM
It basically reads the same as your first post to me: Republican ads will be "character assassination attempts," while Democrat ads will be policy driven.

Maybe I'm the only one who interpreted it that way. :shrug:
Interesting how you conveniently left out this post, where I clarify that both sides do it:
I didn't say that they didn't do it. I said, "To win, this is what they have to do..."

And I didn't say that the flag pin, or Reverend Wright, or Obama's wife's remarks wouldn't be tremendously effective. I just despise that kind of politics. I was not proud of the whole draft dodging effort the Dems put against Bush either. It's immaterial.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 10:18 PM
It basically reads the same as your first post to me: Republican ads will be "character assassination attempts," while Democrat ads will be policy driven.

I think a part of that is that Democrat ads can be policy driven and still be effective. (i.e., they can be Bush-policy driven and sufficiently vilify McCain; that's the whole association thing.)

Since the Republicans have little policy to aim at (Obama's record? Ha!), they may have to resort to character assassination. Which, I think, is a completely legitimate form of campaigning given an ugly name.

Of course, some would consider being lumped together with Bush a form of character assassination, so maybe both parties are attacking the same front.

DVD Polizei
05-07-08, 10:37 PM
As you know, there are Al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they're moving back into Iraq.

Is this a simple mix-up? Explain how that could occur, since you would have to be mixing up insurgents and Al-Qaeda in Iraq, and Shi'ites in Iran. How could your tongue slip on that one? That's one hell of a tongue. We're talkin' the Gene Simmons tongue of Foreign Policy mistaken identities here.

Ok, let's rewind that beautiful Foreign Policy footage.

A Shi'ite country. Is training Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda are mostly Sunni in the country of Iraq.

The dumbass doesn't know, doesn't realize, doesn't comprehend, the differences between terms such as Al-Qaeda and extremists or insurgents, and doesn't qualify them properly when using them in his description of a country (Iran) he is stating he would like to attack or favors attacking. This demonstrates internal confusion on the matter which in basic terms, just means he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about and is merely a mouthpiece for Bush, pulling us into another war with yet another country.

Yeah, ok. I'm in. Not.

Hank Ringworm, you seem to be conveniently forgetting McCain prouds himself of being informed on foreign policy. That's his justification for his entire campaign: McCain Knows Foreign Policy. McCain Can Save Mr. American From Teh Terrorists.

shadowhawk2020
05-07-08, 10:41 PM
I can live with that. Mentality is a legitimate issue, and age can be a real factor. Age's effect does, however, vary from person to person and I, personally, don't think McCain's mistakes are evidence of senility. But that's something we all have to decide for ourselves.


At Mccains age, neither of my grandparents were able to drive, and we were making the move for them to have assisted living. I know every person is different, and have different mental capabilities (sp?) at different ages. But, the gap between what I saw with my Grandparents, and being capable of being President, leading this nation is to large for me to look past.

dork
05-07-08, 10:47 PM
At Mccains age, neither of my grandparents were able to drive, and we were making the move for them to have assisted living. I know every person is different, and have different mental capabilities (sp?) at different ages. But, the gap between what I saw with my Grandparents, and being capable of being President, leading this nation is to large for me to look past.
I think the President gets a chauffeur.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 10:49 PM
Hank Ringworm, you seem to be conveniently forgetting McCain prouds himself of being informed on foreign policy. That's his justification for his entire campaign: McCain Knows Foreign Policy. McCain Can Save Mr. American From Teh Terrorists.

You seem to be forgetting (it's not so convenient to me) that what one says in public speeches--errant flicks of the tongue and all--is not what one says in private foreign policy meetings. I think McCain is not a natural public speaker, at least not in the vein of (feign, swoon, oh my!) Obama, and he makes mistakes in that arena. Probably he's had his "anger", his personality, and therefore his confidence tempered by his speechwriters and consultants. Maybe he gets a little nervous in front of a crowd. I don't think this disqualifies him as President. He's shown confidence and skill (even of tongue) on various congressional committees, and I think he'll do the same in White House foreign policy meetings. Unless he decides to invite the media every time, like Bush.

The (public, personal, and political) pressure of a Presidential campaign distorts both strengths and weaknesses; Obama looks better than he really is and McCain looks worse than he really is, just because of public speaking skills. And, before you misinterpret me, the pressures of a Presidential campaign are not the pressures of a Presidency.

DVD Polizei
05-07-08, 10:56 PM
Hey, I'm sure it's easier to go to war with other countries and spend taxpayer money behind closed doors. Fuck yeah, it's easier. I'm not disagreeing with you on that. :lol:

What I'm saying, is McCain just can't sell the shit he's digging out of his ass.

However, I do respect your opinion and sticking up for him. I just can't. If you were to bump into me in 2002, I'd probably would've agreed with you, but not now. Not today. Not after what I've experienced and observed from afar and close-up.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 11:00 PM
At Mccains age, neither of my grandparents were able to drive, and we were making the move for them to have assisted living. I know every person is different, and have different mental capabilities (sp?) at different ages. But, the gap between what I saw with my Grandparents, and being capable of being President, leading this nation is to large for me to look past.

Fair enough. I think my grandfather is incredibly bright and clear-thinking. I wouldn't vote for him for President, because his views are far, far right of mine, but I wouldn't discount him just for his age. But I could see how someone in different circumstances would.

By the way, in some Greek city-states, you could not be part of the senior legislature until you were sixty (and, back then, not many lived beyond 70). Granted, a single member of the legislature of a single polis was nowhere near as important as the President of the United States, but I think the Greeks' trust in age and life experience is important.

Again, I'm fine with your views, as you seem to have come by them honest. Just don't be surprised when others don't share them.

Hank Ringworm
05-07-08, 11:18 PM
Hey, I'm sure it's easier to go to war with other countries and spend taxpayer money behind closed doors. Fuck yeah, it's easier. I'm not disagreeing with you on that. :lol:

What I'm saying, is McCain just can't sell the shit he's digging out of his ass.

However, I do respect your opinion and sticking up for him. I just can't. If you were to bump into me in 2002, I'd probably would've agreed with you, but not now. Not today. Not after what I've experienced and observed from afar and close-up.

You must surely realize that decisions today, as always, are made behind closed doors. That's a representative plutocracy for you. Government isn't about selling shit out of your ass; it's ultimately about the good of the state, and therefore of the people. (That might invite a shitstorm of argument, but I stand by it.)

I understand hestitancy about a McCain Presidency, just as I understand hestitancy about any Presidency, Washington, Lincoln, Polk, or Taft. I was hesitant about McCain myself, until I understood that elections, anywhere and anytime, are about the lesser of two or more evils. People will always be unhappy with candidates (and always with good reason).

Many simple people threaten to move to another country when faced with a candidate they don't like. I would move away if I found a candidate who I completely and wholly liked and agreed with, because that's just creepy as shit.

I appreciate your respecting my opinion, and I respect yours in turn. Probably the best way to illustrate my opinion is that lesser-of-evils thing. I will defend McCain heartily not because I think he is perfect or because I agree with everything he says, but rather because I think he'd be better for our country than the alternative. Sometimes, I'll admit, I feel like I'm defending a friend who got drunk and did something really stupid on a townie's porch. (True story. I'll tell it one day.)

Also, I've always distrusted good public speakers because I myself am not one. Sure, that's like the loser hating the prom king, but I know that I'm not an idiot, no matter how I sound in public. So I can believe that other, more error-prone, speakers aren't idiots, as well.

Cheers.

Dimension X
05-08-08, 12:49 AM
Interesting how you conveniently left out this post, where I clarify that both sides do it:
You may want to look again. I didn't "conveniently leave out" anything. Your post that you quoted here was the post I was answering (the first one quoted in my post).

hahn
05-08-08, 02:26 AM
So....the Democrats tying McCain to Bush is just politics, but the Republicans going after Obama on anything is "character assassination"?

#1 No one said going after Obama on anything. They will try to bring doubt to his moral integrity. The way Hillary tried. Unfortunately for them, short of a sex scandal, Obama's pretty much made of Teflon. I will be highly entertained watching them and FoxNews try though.

#2 Since you like Bush so much, how is tying McCain to Bush character assassination?

al_bundy
05-08-08, 08:05 AM
it's a logical fallacy

politicians do this every election where they dig up pictures from decades ago to make it look like you are best friends

classicman2
05-08-08, 08:11 AM
You must surely realize that decisions today, as always, are made behind closed doors. That's a representative plutocracy for you. Government isn't about selling shit out of your ass; it's ultimately about the good of the state, and therefore of the people. (That might invite a shitstorm of argument, but I stand by it.)

I understand hestitancy about a McCain Presidency, just as I understand hestitancy about any Presidency, Washington, Lincoln, Polk, or Taft. I was hesitant about McCain myself, until I understood that elections, anywhere and anytime, are about the lesser of two or more evils. People will always be unhappy with candidates (and always with good reason).

Many simple people threaten to move to another country when faced with a candidate they don't like. I would move away if I found a candidate who I completely and wholly liked and agreed with, because that's just creepy as shit.

I appreciate your respecting my opinion, and I respect yours in turn. Probably the best way to illustrate my opinion is that lesser-of-evils thing. I will defend McCain heartily not because I think he is perfect or because I agree with everything he says, but rather because I think he'd be better for our country than the alternative. Sometimes, I'll admit, I feel like I'm defending a friend who got drunk and did something really stupid on a townie's porch. (True story. I'll tell it one day.)

Also, I've always distrusted good public speakers because I myself am not one. Sure, that's like the loser hating the prom king, but I know that I'm not an idiot, no matter how I sound in public. So I can believe that other, more error-prone, speakers aren't idiots, as well.

Cheers.

:up:

That's a very good post.

I don't agree with your conclusion that McCain would be the best choice for the country, but..........................

We're (at least me) are going to have to add you to the list of 'voice(s) of reason.' ;)

Th0r S1mpson
05-08-08, 08:20 AM
We're (at least me) are going to have to add you to the list of 'voice(s) of reason.' ;)
-eek- Is that what that list was?

[dives into dumpster to retrieve vomit-coated Post-it note]


P.S. Good post, Hank.

MartinBlank
05-08-08, 09:06 AM
#1 No one said going after Obama on anything. They will try to bring doubt to his moral integrity. The way Hillary tried. Unfortunately for them, short of a sex scandal, Obama's pretty much made of Teflon. I will be highly entertained watching them and FoxNews try though.

#2 Since you like Bush so much, how is tying McCain to Bush character assassination?

I never said I was a huge fan of Bush, I just find the whining humorous.

Obama Supporter: Stick to the issues!! The issues DAMMIT!! There's a lot to learn about this fine candidate!!! ISSUES!!! Wut...his opponent?! Just more of the same, DUH!

It's okay to tie McCain to someone that some may find reprehensible (Bush), yet the same can't be done with Obama and his anti-American pastor? :lol: We've all heard stated MANY times "Wright isn't running for President!!!11!'" Well, last I heard, neither is Bush. :shrug:

VinVega
05-08-08, 09:11 AM
You may want to look again. I didn't "conveniently leave out" anything. Your post that you quoted here was the post I was answering (the first one quoted in my post).
Fair enough. I don't know what you want from me though. I was stating what I believe to be the winning strategies for each side. I'm not removing my comments.

Since you reported my post. I will differ to one of the other mods. If they want to remove my comments, I'll abide by that, but I don't believe them to be a generalization.

classicman2
05-08-08, 09:19 AM
What about the rumor that Hillary is negotiating with Barack for Barack to pay off her campaign debts. If he agrees, she will agree to 'suspend' her campaign?

Anything to it?

Another thing: Hillary has said if the Democrats had the same primary rules as the Republicans that she would be the nominee. Do you agree with that?

wendersfan
05-08-08, 09:20 AM
It's okay to tie McCain to someone that some may find reprehensible (Bush), yet the same can't be done with Obama and his anti-American pastor? :lol: We've all heard stated MANY times "Wright isn't running for President!!!11!'" Well, last I heard, neither is Bush. :shrug:
The analogy doesn't really work because, on the one hand, Reverend Wright has AFAIK never held elective office, while on the other, Senator McCain is campaigning for the office currently held by President Bush, and, it could be argued, seeks a continuance of many of his policies. President Bush is not popular. His performance is not popular and neither are his policies. Since Senator McCain belongs to the same party, the president's unpopularity is, to some degree, going to be transferred to him, and it's natural for the Democrats to both encourage and exploit that. It is quite literally their biggest asset this fall, and best for them, it is candidate (and office) independent. Any Democrat running against any Republican this fall will have that edge.

Obama is much more of an unknown quantity than either Bush or McCain. He's younger, he's not as much experience, he hasn't been in the news as much or as long, and no one really knows what policies he will try to enact. We have general ideas, but nothing really specific. What is being supported in Obama's case is an image, an attitude, and a general vision. I'm not implying that's good or bad, just that it's very different than what we have with McCain. Because of that difference, attacks on Obama will naturally be more character- and persona-based than attacks on McCain. This is also a problem for the Republicans, since Obama has a bit of a shield in being African-American, so the GOP will have to tread lightly around that. The Democrats have much of the same problem with McCain being a war hero and former POW, but, as I said above, it will easier to attack him at the policy level anyway.

Ranger
05-08-08, 09:24 AM
Carter has hinted that he, as a superdelegate, would vote for Obama.

I'm trying to review what happened with Florida and Michigan. They broke the rules by having an early primary, and neither candidate campaigned there and voter turnout was low. I don't know why people say the two matter now, it seems that even if they counted, Obama would still be in the lead.

classicman2
05-08-08, 09:25 AM
Since you reported my post. I will differ to one of the other mods. If they want to remove my comments, I'll abide by that, but I don't believe them to be a generalization.

Now you'll know I'm not one to correct another member. However, I'm assuming you meant defer not differ. :)

classicman2
05-08-08, 09:31 AM
Speaking of Carter, will you'll agree with me that in some areas (not in his obvious support of Obama) that Carter has become somewhat of an ass?

I can't attribute it to senility.

I don't know the reason for it.

Maybe he was always an ass, and managed to hide it. We'll probably never know. ;)

wendersfan
05-08-08, 09:32 AM
Fair enough. I don't know what you want from me though. I was stating what I believe to be the winning strategies for each side. I'm not removing my comments.

Since you reported my post. I will differ to one of the other mods. If they want to remove my comments, I'll abide by that, but I don't believe them to be a generalization.<i>Mod note: I missed that post originally (I believe I was out "having a life"), but IMO it crossed a line. Vin, consider yourself yellow carded. Please refrain from making that sort of generalization.</i>

Th0r S1mpson
05-08-08, 09:34 AM
Maybe he was always an ass, and managed to hide it. We'll probably never know. ;)
I never saw him trying to cover up the "D" after his name.

Ranger
05-08-08, 09:38 AM
Speaking of Carter, will you'll agree with me that in some areas (not in his obvious support of Obama) that Carter has become somewhat of an ass?

I can't attribute it to senility.

I don't know the reason for it.

Maybe he was always an ass, and managed to hide it. We'll probably never know. ;)
What do you think Carter would say to that?

"You better watch it, sonny. Don't be calling me an ass just because I support Obama."

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 09:46 AM
<i>Mod note: I missed that post originally (I believe I was out "having a life"), but IMO it crossed a line. Vin, consider yourself yellow carded. Please refrain from making that sort of generalization.</i>

Mod fight!

classicman2
05-08-08, 10:16 AM
I think part of Carter's problem is that he suffers from the 'one-term president syndrome.'

They seem to be pissed off more than the ex-2-term presidents.

X
05-08-08, 10:20 AM
What about the rumor that Hillary is negotiating with Barack for Barack to pay off her campaign debts. If he agrees, she will agree to 'suspend' her campaign?

Anything to it?I hope not. The only thing better than having Hillary, the "inevitable" nominee rejected by the public (of her own party!) and humiliated by a newcomer is to have her family of grifters lose over $11 million in the process.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 10:31 AM
Running "far left" to appeal to everyone so he can "fix" what's wrong with the country OR that the country can only be fixed if we adopt more "far left" policies?

Sorry, I figured most would know where I stand to know what I meant but I could have clarified. I didn't mean either of those.

I think it will take a year or two of left leaning ideology to get conservatives back on track. I think in this centrist crap that's been going on is why most Americans are unhappy. So let's go left (as opposed to centrist McCain) and get the right fired back up to take back Washington.

Of course, at least in my case, the Republicans will have one chance to actually perform as they campaign. If Obama wins and the Republicans finally start sounding like Republicans again, they better damn well mean what they say - otherwise I'll just stick with the libertarians or constitution party from there on out. No more "we're better than them" but then getting in office and acting exactly like Democrats.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 10:33 AM
Mod fight!
:lol:

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 10:41 AM
I think it will take a year or two of left leaning ideology to get conservatives back on track. I think in this centrist crap that's been going on is why most Americans are unhappy.

Your assertion that "most" Americans are unhappy with "centrist crap" seems specious to me. Most Americans are not ideologues.

So let's go left (as opposed to centrist McCain) and get the right fired back up to take back Washington.

What makes you think such a result would be any different from the 1994 Republican takeover? Being in opposition and being in power are two very different things, as the Republicans learned in 1994 and the Democrats learned in 2006.

classicman2
05-08-08, 10:47 AM
Your assertion that "most" Americans are unhappy with "centrist crap" seems specious to me. Most Americans are not ideologues.

That's the first thing I've agreed with you on in some time. ;)

The country, IMO, is a tiny bit to the right. It has been further to the right; and, it has been further to the left - but, basically in the middle.

Perhaps she's referring to just the Republican Americans. ;)

classicman2
05-08-08, 11:16 AM
Clinton's campaign manager says the race will be over in early June.

Pharoh
05-08-08, 11:22 AM
VinVega,


My disagreement with your statements comes from your belief that pointing out Senator Obama's associations, past statements, and some of his actions in an attempt to divine his true beliefs and character, especially given his relative lack of a record and his attempts to gloss over how far left he is, would be character assissination. It would be no such thing.

Red Dog
05-08-08, 11:35 AM
Sorry, I figured most would know where I stand to know what I meant but I could have clarified. I didn't mean either of those.

I think it will take a year or two of left leaning ideology to get conservatives back on track. I think in this centrist crap that's been going on is why most Americans are unhappy. So let's go left (as opposed to centrist McCain) and get the right fired back up to take back Washington.

Of course, at least in my case, the Republicans will have one chance to actually perform as they campaign. If Obama wins and the Republicans finally start sounding like Republicans again, they better damn well mean what they say - otherwise I'll just stick with the libertarians or constitution party from there on out. No more "we're better than them" but then getting in office and acting exactly like Democrats.


Again I have to ask when people throw the general term 'conservatives' around (since there seems to be a wide variety of conservatives in this day and age), what do you mean by 'back on track,' and when was the last time do you believe they were on that track?

I also noticed that hardly anybody answered my McCain-supposedly-needs-a-conservative-running-mate question.

classicman2
05-08-08, 11:41 AM
McCain has released his military record - pretty impressive.

He was awarded 17 medals & decorations while serving as a naval aviator & POW in Vietnam.

dork
05-08-08, 11:43 AM
Negative campaigning: Any ad that mentions your opponent.

Character assassination: Any ad that mentions your opponent and is effective.

Pharoh
05-08-08, 11:44 AM
Again I have to ask when people throw the general term 'conservatives' around (since there seems to be a wide variety of conservatives in this day and age), what do you mean by 'back on track,' and when was the last time do you believe they were on that track?

I also noticed that hardly anybody answered my McCain-supposedly-needs-a-conservative-running-mate question.



I missed the question, but I don't think he needs any particular type of person as a VP.



Adding: I am not really not qualified to address the first portion of your post.

classicman2
05-08-08, 11:44 AM
I believe McCain needs a conservative running mate.

I just don't know who it would be. Huckabee helps him with the fundamentalist conservatives, but hurts him with another wing of the party - the economic one.

VinVega
05-08-08, 11:44 AM
Mod fight!
The worst part is he used a soccer reference. One more yellow card and I miss the next week's game. :(

I bow to wenders' superior knowledge though and will drop the subject. Let's see what ads run this fall and take it from there.

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 11:46 AM
I missed the question, but I don't think he needs any particular type of person as a VP.

I do. I think he needs to pick someone much younger than him.

Pharoh
05-08-08, 11:50 AM
I do. I think he needs to pick someone much younger than him.



Yeah, you are correct there. Younger and well respected.

classicman2
05-08-08, 11:53 AM
Hell - anyone he chose (assume they're alive) would be younger than him. :)

classicman2
05-08-08, 11:55 AM
IMO, well-liked is more important than well-respected.

kvrdave
05-08-08, 12:07 PM
IMO, well-liked is more important than well-respected.

Especially for a VP. I have no clue who he will take.

wishbone
05-08-08, 12:08 PM
IMO, well-liked is more important than well-respected.In politics or in life? I would agree with the former and our current "image is everything" political process.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 12:12 PM
Again I have to ask when people throw the general term 'conservatives' around (since there seems to be a wide variety of conservatives in this day and age), what do you mean by 'back on track,' and when was the last time do you believe they were on that track?

I also noticed that hardly anybody answered my McCain-supposedly-needs-a-conservative-running-mate question.

Considering I'm only 32, I don't remember a time they were ever really 'on track'. What I mean is simply governing as they campaign they will govern. You know, the Contract with America type stuff. Governing with a back bone.

I don't/didn't see your question.

And to TB and the others who say America is happy with centrist, why then does everyone complain about partisanship? Why is it that Obama claims he will work past that? What does he mean when he'll work across the aisle? More centrist compromise? Would that make the left happy any more than working to the left has made Republicans happy?

GreenMonkey
05-08-08, 12:20 PM
Your assertion that "most" Americans are unhappy with "centrist crap" seems specious to me. Most Americans are not ideologues.



Agreed.

I think the problem is that the Republicans had basically full control over the executive & legislative...and after tossing in a few judges they weakened the judicial vs them.

This is what happens IMO when you let one party run things. They do whatever the hell they want, and the president rumber-stamps their stuff.

I'd like to see the Democrats all in control for a while, mainly because IMO the Republicans have run the country into a ditch WRT almost everything they've had a hand in. Foreign policy, economic policy, individual liberties. I went from not voting to voting against Republicans thanks to this.

I'm curious to see if the Democrats, if given free reign like this, run wild like the Republicans had been doing for some years.

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 12:22 PM
And to TB and the others who say America is happy with centrist, why then does everyone complain about partisanship?

Um, because "everyone" is not an ideologue? I really, really, really don't understand your point here, because it seems to be arguing against your position.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 12:34 PM
Um, because "everyone" is not an ideologue? I really, really, really don't understand your point here, because it seems to be arguing against your position.

And I think it's funny that people think the Republicans have run the country into a ditch because I agree but for completely different reasons.

Other than judicial appointments (which they have every right to "ram" :rolleyes: through) where exactly have the Republians followed their platform and ruined the country?

In my opinion they've run the country into a ditch because they've moved left with spending and centrist with other issues (ie: No Child Left Behind (Kennedy/Bush), McCain/Feingold). ;)

They got more done with a Republican Congress and Democrat President than they did with Bush. So for those that hate Republican ideals, what you hate is actually just the current governing Republicans. And so do I. :)

wendersfan
05-08-08, 12:34 PM
I believe McCain needs a conservative running mate.

I just don't know who it would be. Huckabee helps him with the fundamentalist conservatives, but hurts him with another wing of the party - the economic one.He should/will probably pick a governor, but if he goes with another senator I would think Sam Brownback would be an excellent choice. I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 12:35 PM
He should/will probably pick a governor, but if he goes with another senator I would think Sam Brownback would be an excellent choice. I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.

Coburn would be a solid pick for both fiscal and religious conservatives.

wendersfan
05-08-08, 12:45 PM
Coburn would be a solid pick for both fiscal and religious conservatives.Coburn has less mainstream appeal. The base would come out for Brownback just as easily.

Red Dog
05-08-08, 12:51 PM
He should/will probably pick a governor, but if he goes with another senator I would think Sam Brownback would be an excellent choice. I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.


I was going to say if he needs someone - a younger governor, particularly in a purple state, would be nice.

I guess I'm just not on board with the needing-a-conservative belief. I don't know what Hucks gives him - I don't have any belief that Obama could win a southern state so why is Hucks necessary? Coburn is the only true fiscal conservative (and social) that I can think of in the Senate but he certainly won't pick him. Are there any viable fiscal conservative governors out there? What does that leave?

wendersfan
05-08-08, 12:55 PM
Are there any viable fiscal conservative governors out there? What does that leave?"Fiscally conservative governor" is practically an oxymoron. It's hard to slash services and remain popular. Now, if you are using the Republican definition of "fiscal conservative", I bet there a number of Republican governors who have cut taxes and run up huge deficits.

dork
05-08-08, 01:00 PM
I thought Coburn was already Obama's VP. :confused:

Red Dog
05-08-08, 01:04 PM
"Fiscally conservative governor" is practically an oxymoron. It's hard to slash services and remain popular. Now, if you are using the Republican definition of "fiscal conservative", I bet there a number of Republican governors who have cut taxes and run up huge deficits.


Well that's kind of the point. There are different types of conservatives saying he needs to pick a conservative. He's clearly a hawk so no need for appeasement on that conservative front (although I personally don't think being a hawk is a conservative position). I just don't know what conservative means anymore besides being either a bible-thumper or a tax-cutter.

Pharoh
05-08-08, 01:07 PM
Well that's kind of the point. There are different types of conservatives saying he needs to pick a conservative. He's clearly a hawk so no need for appeasement on that conservative front (although I personally don't think being a hawk is a conservative position). I just don't know what conservative means anymore besides being either a bible-thumper or a tax-cutter.



Me.



:)

wendersfan
05-08-08, 01:09 PM
Nice. :lol:

:up:

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 01:09 PM
And I think it's funny that people think the Republicans have run the country into a ditch because I agree but for completely different reasons.

Other than judicial appointments (which they have every right to "ram" :rolleyes: through) where exactly have the Republians followed their platform and ruined the country?

In my opinion they've run the country into a ditch because they've moved left with spending and centrist with other issues (ie: No Child Left Behind (Kennedy/Bush), McCain/Feingold). ;)

They got more done with a Republican Congress and Democrat President than they did with Bush. So for those that hate Republican ideals, what you hate is actually just the current governing Republicans. And so do I. :)

None of this has anything to do with partisanship, however. You may think that those aren't conservative positions, but the Democrats and some Americans obviously disagree.

I think America, as a nation, has a a deep-seated unease with whatever government is currently in place. In short, we like to bitch.

Also, can you please stop posting things in response to me that contain statements I never made? It's easy to make up your opponent's arguments and then refute them, but it's not exactly kosher.

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 01:12 PM
I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.

That sentence really got away from you, didn't it? ;)

Red Dog
05-08-08, 01:15 PM
Me.



:)


That doesn't help since you were the one who said he didn't need one.

wendersfan
05-08-08, 01:24 PM
That sentence really got away from you, didn't it? ;)Somebody walked into my office, I got distracted, and then I didn't really want to think about it anymore. Thanks for noticing. :grunt:

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 01:49 PM
"Fiscally conservative governor" is practically an oxymoron. It's hard to slash services and remain popular. Now, if you are using the Republican definition of "fiscal conservative", I bet there a number of Republican governors who have cut taxes and run up huge deficits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sanford

He may not be popular with Democrats but he won re-election handily.

mosquitobite
05-08-08, 01:50 PM
Also, can you please stop posting things in response to me that contain statements I never made? It's easy to make up your opponent's arguments and then refute them, but it's not exactly kosher.

Sorry. I try to answer all posts in one post to make it easier on me. I didn't know some would consider it offensive.

orangecrush
05-08-08, 01:53 PM
I do. I think he needs to pick someone much younger than him.
Is that McCain's great grandson on stage with him?

Tracer Bullet
05-08-08, 01:58 PM
Sorry. I try to answer all posts in one post to make it easier on me. I didn't know some would consider it offensive.

Quoting one person and then responding to several is a little disingenuous.

At any rate, I'm leaving to go to Chicago for the weekend, so I'm done caring about this until I return. I look forward to reading Part XVII on Monday. :lol:

Red Dog
05-08-08, 02:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Sanford

He may not be popular with Democrats but he won re-election handily.


He may not be popular with conservatives either. :lol:

wendersfan
05-08-08, 02:02 PM
He may not be popular with conservatives either. :lol:A Republican incumbent winning re-election in SC with 55% of the vote is not exactly confidence inspiring.

classicman2
05-08-08, 02:43 PM
He should/will probably pick a governor, but if he goes with another senator I would think Sam Brownback would be an excellent choice. I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.

Brownback would be a good choice. He appeals to both the religious and the other kind conservatives.

If he was from a swing state - he would be even a better choice. ;)

classicman2
05-08-08, 02:45 PM
The word is that Obama is seriously considering Robert C. Byrd as his running mate.

O.K. so he's a little long in the tooth - he has good qualities.

orangecrush
05-08-08, 03:01 PM
The word is that Obama is seriously considering Robert C. Byrd as his running mate.

O.K. so he's a little long in the tooth - he has good qualities.
So, it would be the exact opposite of the Elephants. I like it!

classicman2
05-08-08, 03:06 PM
It makes sense, doesn't it?

He had a black racist minister as his mentor.

Why not a former member of the Ku Klux Klan as a mentor also?

General Zod
05-08-08, 03:14 PM
Can you imagine.. a black president and an ex Klan member as VP. Only in America..What a country!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/general_zod/yakov.jpg

classicman2
05-08-08, 03:35 PM
'God help me, I do love it so.'

Where is that line from?

dork
05-08-08, 03:37 PM
Harold & Kumar 2?

Th0r S1mpson
05-08-08, 03:41 PM
Patton, on war.

GreenMonkey
05-08-08, 03:45 PM
Other than judicial appointments (which they have every right to "ram" :rolleyes: through) where exactly have the Republians followed their platform and ruined the country?

In my opinion they've run the country into a ditch because they've moved left with spending and centrist with other issues (ie: No Child Left Behind (Kennedy/Bush), McCain/Feingold). ;)



The problem is, they don't actually believe in their so-called fiscal conservatism. It's seemingly just politician talk.

The minute they got a rubber-stamping president they run the economy into the ditch. It doesn't matter which party. On a regional level, they spend money where it gets them votes (the classic bridge-to-nowhere).

I don't believe the Republicans in general actually believe in fiscal conservatism, at least not in the past couple of decades. The only people that actually believe in it are the Libertarians.

Their platform includes spending just as much money as the Democrats IMO. They just are dealing with a different base.

Broad examples: Democrats will spend money on Sex Ed in schools. Republicans will spend it on abstinence programs. Democrats will cut taxes on the poor. Republicans cut taxes on the top of the middle class to wealthy.

Same sorts of actions towards different bases. That's how I see it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Dimension X
05-08-08, 03:54 PM
Fair enough. I don't know what you want from me though. I was stating what I believe to be the winning strategies for each side. I'm not removing my comments.

Since you reported my post. I will differ to one of the other mods. If they want to remove my comments, I'll abide by that, but I don't believe them to be a generalization.
I wouldn't want your comments (or those of any poster) removed. All I was looking for was a simple Mod note to show some consistency on the "generalizations" rule, or an email explaining why I was wrong to see your post as a rule-breaker.

I decided reporting the post and asking the question outside the thread was the best route (to keep us from straying off-topic). After seeing no result after a few hours (and after others had already commented on your post), I went ahead and addressed it in the thread.

<i>Mod note: I missed that post originally (I believe I was out "having a life"), but IMO it crossed a line. Vin, consider yourself yellow carded. Please refrain from making that sort of generalization.</i>
One Mod for. One Mod against. I guess one man's generalization is another man's truism. :shrug:

Groucho
05-08-08, 04:00 PM
The word is that Obama is seriously considering Robert C. Byrd as his running mate.Word from where? Imagination land?

MartinBlank
05-08-08, 07:54 PM
He should/will probably pick a governor, but if he goes with another senator I would think Sam Brownback would be an excellent choice. I know I trumpet him a lot, but I think he there's a lot of "there" there.

Don't forget that who ever he picks as his VP WILL be the GOP Presidential candidate in 2012, assuming he wins of course. McCain will only be good for one term in office. THAT'S why he needs a "real" conservative. If McCain drafts a mini-McCain as VP and the GOP retains control of the White House that WILL BE the end of the conservative movement for atleast 8 years. This is all just my opinion, so I could be wrong...but I doubt it ;)

Red Dog
05-08-08, 08:04 PM
Don't forget that who ever he picks as his VP WILL be the GOP Presidential candidate in 2012, assuming he wins of course. McCain will only be good for one term in office. THAT'S why he needs a "real" conservative. If McCain drafts a mini-McCain as VP and the GOP retains control of the White House that WILL BE the end of the conservative movement for atleast 8 years. This is all just my opinion, so I could be wrong...but I doubt it ;)


I'll ask you....what is a "real" conservative? Do you have examples?

Also, do you consider Bush a "real" conservative and if not, did you in 2004 or 2000?

Finally - "The end of the conservative movement?" :hscratch: "What movement?" :lol:

Jason
05-08-08, 08:09 PM
It makes sense, doesn't it?

He had a black racist minister as his mentor.

Why not a former member of the Ku Klux Klan as a mentor also?

What, is Osama bin Laden too busy?

Don't believe every email with ten [FWD]'s in the title.

JasonF
05-08-08, 10:09 PM
There's a great movie called Der Untergang ("Downfall") that depicts Hitler and is inner circle during the last days of the Third Reich. One scene shows Hitler finally confronting the fact that he has lost the war. It's a powerful scene, but it's also been fodder for a bunch of comedy mash-ups. The subtitles have been changed to make the scene depcit everything from Hitler finding out that his XBox Live account has been suspended (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvZnTFpip0) to Hitler finding out his car has been stolen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8dl4faCpJE).

Here's the latest version of the scene:
B6Lstkiexhc

JasonF
05-08-08, 10:18 PM
And in more serious news, today Senator Clinton gave us the following gem:

"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-07-clintoninterview_N.htm

Nice race-baiting there, Senator.

DVD Polizei
05-08-08, 10:28 PM
Hillary reminds me of Bush. Just doesn't know when to call it good and step the fuck out of the situation.

dork
05-08-08, 10:39 PM
Here's the latest version of the scene:
B6Lstkiexhc
Great fun. I'll have to remember this the next time you feign outrage at some historical allusion Hillary makes in one of her speeches.

JasonF
05-08-08, 10:52 PM
Great fun. I'll have to remember this the next time you feign outrage at some historical allusion Hillary makes in one of her speeches.
Yeah, because some random schmuck on the internet doing the umpteenth mash-up of this video for pure comedy effect is just like a serious statement made by a presidential candidate.

belboz
05-09-08, 12:09 AM
It is due time for the United States to experience what the consequences are of yielding to the siren calls of demagoguery.

Funny, I thought that's what we've been going through for the past few years?

slop101
05-09-08, 12:20 AM
Yeah, if he gets elected, I think more is going to be expected from Obama than almost any other president in recent history. While I think he's the better candidate of the 3, there is no way he's going to be able to meet these expectations.

bhk
05-09-08, 01:07 AM
And in more serious news, today Senator Clinton gave us the following gem:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-07-clintoninterview_N.htm

Nice race-baiting there, Senator.

She's telling the truth. Begala said:" We cannot win with eggheads and African-Americans, okay? That's the Dukakis coalition, which carried ten states and -- and gave us four years of the first George Bush."

And Donna Brazile was hopping mad at him. It was so great to see the dems engage in this kind of internal fighting.
Somehow, it's "race baiting" when she points out that she is more popular among white voters(a true statement).

She is going to win big in WVa and KY.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 07:15 AM
Funny, I thought that's what we've been going through for the past few years?


Yep. He threw a meatball pitch right there.

classicman2
05-09-08, 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by JasonF
And in more serious news, today Senator Clinton gave us the following gem:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/politi...interview_N.htm

Nice race-baiting there, Senator.
________________

Race baiting or not - it's true, isn't it?

Red Dog
05-09-08, 08:12 AM
I found the AP stringing together the words "working, hard-working Americans, white Americans" a bit shocking.

JasonF
05-09-08, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by JasonF
And in more serious news, today Senator Clinton gave us the following gem:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/politi...interview_N.htm

Nice race-baiting there, Senator.
________________

Race baiting or not - it's true, isn't it?

It's true that "working, hard working Americans" means "white Americans" (more specifically "whites who had not completed college")?

wendersfan
05-09-08, 08:16 AM
Race baiting or not - it's true, isn't it?I'm not convinced it's race-baiting or that it's true. Obama did better among Whites in Indiana than he did in Pennsylvania. He did better among people with no college degree in Indiana than he did in Pennsylvania. I'm not sure Clinton is race-baiting, but I suspect she does have her facts wrong.

classicman2
05-09-08, 08:22 AM
(CNN) — John McCain’s campaign accused Barack Obama of making the presumptive Republican nominee’s age an issue after his Thursday remark that the Arizona senator was “losing his bearings as he pursues this nomination.”
_________________

The general take on this is that Obama is referring to McCain's age.

I'm not so sure that's true.

I think he may be referring to the 'rumor' that has been floating around in the U.S. Senate for a number of years that McCain's (to put it rather crudely) elevator doesn't go clear to the top.

The Bus
05-09-08, 08:48 AM
Actually, he meant that McCain is a robot. Obama accused him of literally losing his bearings.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 08:54 AM
WP's The Fix election blog has updated their Veep rankings:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/05/the_friday_line_veepstakes_1.html#more

Most of those Republicans don't strike me as 'true' conservatives, whatever that means. ;)

wendersfan
05-09-08, 09:01 AM
WP's The Fix election blog has updated their Veep rankings:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/05/the_friday_line_veepstakes_1.html#more

Most of those Republicans don't strike me as 'true' conservatives, whatever that means. ;)Rob Portman, huh? Yes, a <i>good</i> idea to pick someone so closely associated with President Bush. Maybe McCain should just pick "Scooter" Libby. :lol:

GreenMonkey
05-09-08, 09:06 AM
Funny, I thought that's what we've been going through for the past few years?

:lol:

Exactly what I was thinking. I think we've learned our lesson plenty enough, thank you.

classicman2
05-09-08, 09:09 AM
I don't see any Republican on the list that I believe will be the VP nominee.

I think Gov. Ted Strickland has a real shot - assuming he wants it - and nobody wants the VP position until they're asked.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 09:13 AM
I don't see any Republican on the list that I believe will be the VP nominee.


I think their odds just got better. ;)

wendersfan
05-09-08, 09:19 AM
Charlie Crist would be a good choice.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 09:20 AM
Charlie Crist would be a good choice.


I said the same thing, until Obama locked up the Dem nomination. McCain doesn't need him now.

classicman2
05-09-08, 09:21 AM
I haven't heard much about Ralph Nader lately.

Is he still planning to run a campaign?

dork
05-09-08, 09:21 AM
Charlie Crist would be a good choice.
Proposed campaign slogan: "John McCain: Older than Crist!"

Groucho
05-09-08, 09:23 AM
WP's The Fix election blog has updated their Veep rankings:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/05/the_friday_line_veepstakes_1.html#moreBill Richardson isn't even on the Obama list? I thought he'd be #1.

wmansir
05-09-08, 09:24 AM
a look at recent veep picks (John Edwards, Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman) shows that the traditional "geographic" consideration may be fading in importance when it comes to picking a number two.
And if the current crop of nominees are very observant they will look at recent history and perhaps reverse that trend.

classicman2
05-09-08, 09:26 AM
On deep reflection (not really) I believe Sen. Sam Brownback is the logical choice.

However, I'm not sure what the 'law' is in Kansas about replacement. Kansas does have a Democratic governor who just might be interested in the vacant post herself.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 09:27 AM
Bill Richardson isn't even on the Obama list? I thought he'd be #1.


Yeah - I was very surprised he wasn't on the Obama list. I think that's an excellent direction for Obama to go - it will really help him in the the Mountain-West states he needs to pick off, help dilute the minority-jealously factor and McCain's popularity with latinos, and provide a balance to the ticket regionally and on experience.

classicman2
05-09-08, 09:29 AM
Gov. Bill Richardson has said and over again that he's not interested in the VP position.

As I previously noted, however, no one wants the VP position until they're asked. If Obama asks Richardson - Richardson will most likely comply - unless he believes that Obama will lose - and, therefore, he will keep his options open for 2012.

What do think about that reasoning? ;)

VinVega
05-09-08, 09:58 AM
Gov. Bill Richardson has said and over again that he's not interested in the VP position.

As I previously noted, however, no one wants the VP position until they're asked. If Obama asks Richardson - Richardson will most likely comply - unless he believes that Obama will lose - and, therefore, he will keep his options open for 2012.

What do think about that reasoning? ;)
Yes?

VinVega
05-09-08, 10:00 AM
Bill Richardson should be high on either candidate's list. Perhaps Obama is just playing coy.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 11:08 AM
There's a great movie called Der Untergang ("Downfall") that depicts Hitler and is inner circle during the last days of the Third Reich. One scene shows Hitler finally confronting the fact that he has lost the war. It's a powerful scene, but it's also been fodder for a bunch of comedy mash-ups. The subtitles have been changed to make the scene depcit everything from Hitler finding out that his XBox Live account has been suspended (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvZnTFpip0) to Hitler finding out his car has been stolen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8dl4faCpJE).

Here's the latest version of the scene:
B6Lstkiexhc


Not as good as the Cowboys-playoff loss to the Giants reaction video, but entertaining nonetheless.

FunkDaddy J
05-09-08, 11:14 AM
Bill Richardson should be high on either candidate's list. Perhaps Obama is just playing coy.

How about Biden? I've thought through this whole process that he would be an excellent VP.

All this talk while it's looking more and more likely that Clinton could be the VP almost by sheer force of will.

Groucho
05-09-08, 11:15 AM
Bill Richardson should be high on either candidate's list.No, I think he'd be a bad match for McCain.

wendersfan
05-09-08, 11:17 AM
How about Biden? I've thought through this whole process that he would be an excellent VP.He talks to much.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 11:18 AM
Back to Obama and the judiciary, here is more on what he would look for in a SCt justice, as told to Wolf Blitzer yesterday:

"What you're looking for is somebody who is going to apply the law where it's clear. Now there's gonna be those five percent of cases or one percent of cases where the law isn't clear. And the judge has to then bring in his or her own perspectives, his ethics, his or her moral bearings — and, in those circumstances, what I do want is a judge who is sympathetic enough to those who are on the outside, those who are vulnerable, those who are powerless, those who can't have access to political power and as a consequence can't protect themselves from being being dealt with sometimes unfairly. The courts become a refuge for justice. That's been its historic role. That was its role in Brown v. Board of Education."


This goes back to my previous comment about the only part of the Constitution being 14th amendment Equal Protection clause. That's the sense I get from Obama - that it's all about that.

I would submit that EP cases are frequently the types of cases that are unclear, but based on his previous comments, I have a hard time reconciling his statements on the kind of Justice he would want (empathy, sympathy, morality, etc) with his 95-99% cases-are-clear statement. Surely he recognizes that 95-99% of SCt cases are not unanimous.

Also, while Blitzer did not ask him who his model Justice is (I would guess Brennan or Marshall, although for Marshall, it could only be for historic reasons), he did say that of the current Justices, Ginsburg and Breyer are "very sensible" and Souter is "sensible."

slop101
05-09-08, 12:15 PM
He talks to much.Yeah, I'd much rather have someone that can dumb down complex issues into digestible soundbites... -ohbfrank-

bhk
05-09-08, 12:24 PM
Yeah, I'd much rather have someone that can dumb down complex issues into digestible soundbites... -ohbfrank-

It isn't that. When Biden talks, people realize that his mouth is in drive but his brain is in neutral.

wendersfan
05-09-08, 12:35 PM
from Hitler, Mussolini and Franco all the way to Chávez, Le Pen and, well, Kerry, Obama and Hillary.:whofart:

Seriously, a little perspective might be in order.

VinVega
05-09-08, 12:40 PM
He talks to much.
That's true. He is verbose [Biden], but I also think he's more interested in the Sec. of State position. Foreign Policy is where his real interest lies since he ain't getting the Oval Office.

classicman2
05-09-08, 12:48 PM
How about Biden? I've thought through this whole process that he would be an excellent VP.

All this talk while it's looking more and more likely that Clinton could be the VP almost by sheer force of will.

1. He doesn't want the job - he really doesn't want it.

2. He doesn't help Obama where Obama needs help.

classicman2
05-09-08, 12:51 PM
I can't believe that the Democratic ticket is going to be Obama-Clinton.

But hell - I didn't believe either one of them had a chance for the nomination when this all started.

A bunch of folks are assuming that Clinton wants the VP job. I don't think so. She might have aspirations for 2012 - assuming Obama loses. She remembers what happens to VP candidate losers - witness John Edwards.

JasonF
05-09-08, 01:02 PM
:whofart:

Seriously, a little perspective might be in order.

Here's something somebody pointed out to me the other day that gave me a little perspective. Of the G8 leaders, how many would you say are more conservative than Senator Obama? Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi, probably, and maybe Russian President Medvedev (although the Russian plutocracy doesn't really fit on a neat left-right scale). Anyone else? Most of the other G8 countries are led by relatively conservative leaders for their respective countries, but they are probably not any more conservative than a President Obama would be.

JasonF
05-09-08, 01:05 PM
I can't believe that the Democratic ticket is going to be Obama-Clinton.

I think we're more likely to see one of Senator Clinton's close allies -- Governor Strickland or General Clark are the two most obvious choices -- than to see Senator Clinton herself. Governor Richardson was another possibility until he had his very public falling out with the Clinton camp. I'd also put Governor Rendell on the last, though I think he's a little too much the strereotypical mid-Atlantic urbanite (i.e. he's too "Jewy") for the ticket.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 01:07 PM
Here's something somebody pointed out to me the other day that gave me a little perspective. Of the G8 leaders, how many would you say are more conservative than Senator Obama? Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi, probably, and maybe Russian President Medvedev (although the Russian plutocracy doesn't really fit on a neat left-right scale). Anyone else? Most of the other G8 countries are led by relatively conservative leaders for their respective countries, but they are probably not any more conservative than a President Obama would be.


Well then the only conclusion is that Hitler must be tickled pink that there are all these Hitler-clones running the developed world.

The Bus
05-09-08, 01:10 PM
I think Gov. Ted Strickland has a real shot - assuming he wants it - and nobody wants the VP position until they're asked.

Failing that, why not Rod Strickland? The Republicans have never been very good at ball-handling (until recently) and it would help them toughen up their stance on perimeter defense.

Red Dog
05-09-08, 01:12 PM
Failing that, why not Rod Strickland?


Rod Serling would be more appropriate with an Obama/McCain matchup.

wendersfan
05-09-08, 01:22 PM
Here's something somebody pointed out to me the other day that gave me a little perspective. Of the G8 leaders, how many would you say are more conservative than Senator Obama? Italian Prime Minister Berlusconi, probably, and maybe Russian President Medvedev (although the Russian plutocracy doesn't really fit on a neat left-right scale). Anyone else? Most of the other G8 countries are led by relatively conservative leaders for their respective countries, but they are probably not any more conservative than a President Obama would be.Merkel might be considered to the right of Obama. Berlusconi, of course, is a combination of the worst aspects of Benito Mussolini and Al Capone.

Th0r S1mpson
05-09-08, 01:58 PM
According to CNN, only 4 to go.... until Obama surpasses Hillary in the SUPERdelegate count. Surely once that occurs, she is going to bow?

Venusian
05-09-08, 01:59 PM
According to ABC, he's already passed her

Th0r S1mpson
05-09-08, 02:10 PM
According to ABC, he's already passed her
Yeah, but they also keep renewing "Lost."

wendersfan
05-09-08, 02:14 PM
I'm taking this from an user review at Amazon of Fareed Zakaria's book The Post-American World:Too bad the book review (or Zakaria's book) is just, well, wrong:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/images/258-1.gif

Yes, Americans have a lower opinion of trade than the citizens of any of the other countries in the survey, but a majority support it. And, Americans are certainly not the lowest in supporting free markets.

wendersfan
05-09-08, 02:44 PM
It would be a lot of work, but given how you're a graph hero with prodigious data-manipulating tools, could you please estimate a simple average between the three measures and then rank the countries according to it? :DIs this what you want?

http://files.myopera.com/wendersfan/albums/149280/pewglobal.png

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be down there with Japan than up there with Bangladesh. ;)

Pharoh
05-09-08, 02:48 PM
Is this what you want?

http://files.myopera.com/wendersfan/albums/149280/pewglobal.png

I don't know about you, but I'd rather be down there with Japan than up there with Bangladesh. ;)



Personally, I would rather be in the middle.

JasonF
05-09-08, 02:53 PM
Personally, I would rather be in the middle.

Why do you hate America?

wendersfan
05-09-08, 02:59 PM
You mean you'd rather be among declining than emerging countries? ;)

Also, how they hell did you produce that graph so fast?1. Copied and pasted the table from the Pew report (.pdf format) into Textpad

2. Copied and pasted that into Excel, then used the convert text to columns tool

3. Copied resulting data into STATA, where I typed in the following code:

graph dot (asis) var5, over(var1, sort(var5) descending label(labsize(vsmall))) linetype(dot) ysize(6) xsize(6)

4. Saved graph as a .png, uploaded to a webhost.

5. Posted reply.

You may have been being facetious when you said I had prodigious data-manipulating tools, but it really is the truth.

Sad thing is, I did all this while at the same time I was proofreading a report I'm getting ready for Monday. :)

orangecrush
05-09-08, 03:10 PM
1. Copied and pasted the table from the Pew report (.pdf format) into Textpad

2. Copied and pasted that into Excel, then used the convert text to columns tool

3. Copied resulting data into STATA, where I typed in the following code:

graph dot (asis) var5, over(var1, sort(var5) descending label(labsize(vsmall))) linetype(dot) ysize(6) xsize(6)

4. Saved graph as a .png, uploaded to a webhost.

5. Posted reply.

You may have been being facetious when you said I had prodigious data-manipulating tools, but it really is the truth.

Sad thing is, I did all this while at the same time I was proofreading a report I'm getting ready for Monday. :)
:bow: :bow: :bow:

VinVega
05-09-08, 03:34 PM
Nice job graph boy! :up:

wendersfan
05-09-08, 03:37 PM
Personally, I would rather be in the middle.
FWIW, probably so would I. ;)

http://files.myopera.com/wendersfan/albums/149280/attitudes.png

MartinBlank
05-09-08, 03:56 PM
Sad thing is, I did all this while at the same time I was proofreading a report I'm getting ready for Monday. :)

Don't let the boss see ;)

wendersfan
05-09-08, 04:08 PM
You'd be wiser to trace change in GDP rather than per capita GDP.That's just what I had handy in the 2008 Economist pocket guide that was sitting by my monitor.

Th0r S1mpson
05-09-08, 04:21 PM
Can you do a chart showing each of the candidates' age multiplied by the furthest distance that their ear protrudes from their head? It should be a relatively valid measure of experience, and I'm guessing McCain and Obama will be well ahead of Clinton. I'm not sure who will be at the top though.

Pharoh
05-09-08, 04:35 PM
Why do you hate America?



I get and appreciate the levity, but I should point out that I am more often in agreement with Vandelay than I am not.





(Except of course for his 'wrong' views of China, and his somewhat misguided environmental beliefs.)
:)

classicman2
05-09-08, 05:08 PM
The forum is damn proud of wendersfan, aren't we? :)

The Bus
05-09-08, 06:00 PM
I love how you've got The Economist pocket guide right next to your monitor. :lol:

JasonF
05-09-08, 06:05 PM
Here's a great point on the so-called Obama-Clinton Unity Ticket, courtesy of Michael Tomasky (http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/05/09/michael-tomasky-on-the-unity-ticket.aspx): Senator Clinton, when this entire process is done, will have received somehwere in the nieghborhood of 17 million votes. Now, if we take the current polls at face value and accept that a quarter of her supporters will not vote for Senator Obama, and we assume that as the Vice Presidential candidate, she could deliver all of those votes, we're talking about somewhere around 4-4.5 million votes.

Which seems like a lot until you remember that John Kerry got around 60 million votes. And given the excitement and the icnreased enrollment, it's likely that whoever wins the election this year is going to have 70 million or more votes.

So in essence, we're talking about placating, according to the most favorable assumptions for Senator Clinton, one eighth of the Demcoratic primary voting base. And one eighth of the Democratic primary voting base won't win you an election. The whole Democratic primary voting base won't win you an election.

One problem is that I think a Clinton choice would be aimed solely at Democrats. It would be popular among them, but what about non-Democrats? Let's note something that's been little remarked upon so far this season. People keep talking about the stunning turnout in these primaries, and, for primaries, this has surely been the case. About 33 million people have voted.

But how many people voted in the last general election? Around 122 million. With interest seeming higher this year, and if Obama can indeed register many new voters, there is every reason to think that 100 million more people will vote on November 4 than have voted cumulatively over the last 18 weeks. Hillary on the ticket would clearly go down well among a large majority of the 33 million who've voted. But what about the other 100 million? How would putting Hillary Clinton on the ticket strike them?

slop101
05-09-08, 07:47 PM
Obama needs Gravel as his running mate - motherfucker's CRAZY!

TI6PA4v6dZg&NR=1

mosquitobite
05-09-08, 07:59 PM
That video is hilarious!

Dukemstr
05-09-08, 09:02 PM
yoooo!!! that's mike gravelll yooooo!!!!


he got my vote!

Dimension X
05-09-08, 09:35 PM
For those who want to jump on every verbal gaffe McCain makes. What do you make of this?

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EpGH02DtIws&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EpGH02DtIws&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Th0r S1mpson
05-09-08, 09:53 PM
He's obviously been brainwashed by Wright.

"Some say there are 50 states in this evil nation, but don't forget the 10 states of oppression, bondage, fear, indignity, belittlement, abandonment, disenfranchisement, amusement, derangement, and back-of-the-bussiment."

wink wink

slop101
05-09-08, 09:59 PM
It could've been a gaffe, but it sounded like a joke to me - of course I had a watch it a few times to even notice it because I was lost in his eyes...

Anyhoo, if you think that's bad, Obama really cuts loose here:

Lq3NLjdJ4Vc

DVD Polizei
05-09-08, 10:10 PM
For those who want to jump on every verbal gaffe McCain makes. What do you make of this?

Getting the number of states wrong versus pretending to a foriegn policy guru and getting Al-Qaeda, Iran, Iraq, and non-Al Qaeda fighters mixed up, and getting Putin confused with the leader of Germany, is stretching it.

Hell, even I don't know the total number of states. But I sure as hell know Putin is not the leader of Germany, and that Iran is not training Al-Qaeda.

Dimension X
05-09-08, 10:14 PM
It could've been a gaffe, but it sounded like a joke to me - of course I had a watch it a few times to even notice it because I was lost in his eyes...

Anyhoo, if you think that's bad, Obama really cuts loose here:

Lq3NLjdJ4Vc
rotfl Now that was funny.

As for the one I posted; When I first watched it, I thought he was making a joke too. But he follows with "one left to go" and he wasn't allowed to go to Alaska and Hawaii which makes me think he meant to say 47. So I think it was a slip of the tongue.

But Thor makes a convincing argument... :lol:

Dimension X
05-09-08, 10:17 PM
Hell, even I don't know the total number of states.
:lol: Seriously? That's how you choose to defend your position that McCain's verbal gaffes are a big deal?

X
05-09-08, 10:26 PM
Too bad Obama never salutes the flag or wears a lapel pin. He could have counted the stars when he got in trouble like this.

GreenMonkey
05-10-08, 07:59 AM
That Gravel-Obama girl video was hilarious.

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 09:26 AM
:lol: Seriously? That's how you choose to defend your position that McCain's verbal gaffes are a big deal?

Sure, why not. You're defending McCain in the same way. Aren't you?

Apparently mixing up groups of people and attacking the wrong group of people are in the same priority as knowing the correct number of states in the US.

I sure look forward to another Republican in office. :up:

Dimension X
05-10-08, 10:24 AM
Sure, why not. You're defending McCain in the same way. Aren't you?
I don't believe I've defended McCain. But if I did it sure wouldn't be by feigning (admitting?) gross ignorance, as you did. I was just interested in whether people such as yourself (who were making fun of a McCain verbal gaffe earlier in this thread) would apply the same criteria to a politician you liked that you did to one you don't like. It appears not, in your case.

Apparently mixing up terrorists and attacking the wrong group of people are in the same priority as knowing the correct number of states in the US.
I'd say a President having at least enough basic knowledge of the US to pass a citizenship test is a pretty high priority, but I guess I'm just nutty that way. :shrug:
I sure look forward to another Republican in office. :up:
I don't know about looking forward to it, but it certainly beats the alternative.

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 11:16 AM
Well, why don't you grab some examples of Obama mistaking countries and terrorist groups, so we can call this an equal argument. You're reaching for a justification to vote for your Alzheimer's candidate. Which is fine. AARP needs some kind of representation I guess.

Is making ONE mistake on the number of US states the same as making NUMEROUS mistakes on foreign countries, their leaders, and different terrorist groups? Please. If this is all yah got, then Republicans must be some desperate motherfuckers this year.

P.S. If McCain made only mistakes on the number of states, I wouldn't be hounding him like I am. But it goes to evidence he is just a clone, taking Bush's lead, and sorry, but I don't feel like having another old tunnel-visioned man in office, who is in denial...and feigning gross ignorance, as you put it.

Th0r S1mpson
05-10-08, 12:21 PM
"Ten thousand people died - an entire town destroyed".

Obama referred to the leader of Canada as "president."

"We don't have the technical capacity to create something like that." :lol:

Come on... we all make mistakes.

crazyronin
05-10-08, 12:46 PM
Well, why don't you grab some examples of Obama mistaking countries and terrorist groups, so we can call this an equal argument. You're reaching for a justification to vote for your Alzheimer's candidate. Which is fine. AARP needs some kind of representation I guess.

Is making ONE mistake on the number of US states the same as making NUMEROUS mistakes on foreign countries, their leaders, and different terrorist groups? Please. If this is all yah got, then Republicans must be some desperate motherfuckers this year.

P.S. If McCain made only mistakes on the number of states, I wouldn't be hounding him like I am. But it goes to evidence he is just a clone, taking Bush's lead, and sorry, but I don't feel like having another old tunnel-visioned man in office, who is in denial...and feigning gross ignorance, as you put it.

We’re here because of the more than one hundred workers in Logansport, Indiana who just found out that their company has decided to move its entire factory to Taiwan.

link (http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/04/22/obamas-post-pennsylvania-primary-speech/)

He was referring to Modine Manufacturing. It has no plants in Taiwan (Its plant there closed in 2006.) It does have two plants in Thailand. Unfortunately, BHO will not be able to say that he misspoke, as Modine is actually moving the operations from Logansport to other plants in North America.

link (http://www.insideindianabusiness.com/newsitem.asp?ID=28688)

Logansport Plant to Close

InsideINdianaBusiness.com Report

Wisconsin-based Modine Manufacturing Co. (NYSE: MOD) is closing its plant in Logansport. It's part of a restructuring plant that will also mean the closings of facilities in Missouri and Ohio. The closures will take place over an 18-to-24 month period. Production will be consolidated at other North American facilities. Modine makes automobile air-conditioning, ventilating and heating systems.

Source: Inside INdiana Business



As far as mistaking that there are fifty states...There have been fifty states as long as Obama's been alive.

Th0r S1mpson
05-10-08, 01:55 PM
Crap. And here he was counting on taxing 60 states to make his health care plan work! :(

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 02:04 PM
Come on... we all make mistakes.

Ok, ok, you guys got me. All I have to say is:

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4239/americanflagicon1jo5.gifMcCain 2008http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4239/americanflagicon1jo5.gif

"Because...we all make mistakes. For the third time."

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 02:06 PM
Crap. And here he was counting on taxing 60 states to make his health care plan work! :(

The $100 million dollars a year KBR isn't paying, is a good start.

Dimension X
05-10-08, 02:14 PM
Well, why don't you grab some examples of Obama mistaking countries and terrorist groups, so we can call this an equal argument. You're reaching for a justification to vote for your Alzheimer's candidate. Which is fine. AARP needs some kind of representation I guess.

Is making ONE mistake on the number of US states the same as making NUMEROUS mistakes on foreign countries, their leaders, and different terrorist groups? Please. If this is all yah got, then Republicans must be some desperate motherfuckers this year.

P.S. If McCain made only mistakes on the number of states, I wouldn't be hounding him like I am. But it goes to evidence he is just a clone, taking Bush's lead, and sorry, but I don't feel like having another old tunnel-visioned man in office, who is in denial...and feigning gross ignorance, as you put it.
Seems to me you're the one doing the reaching.

Are you asking for something like this?

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lEBZeJUamIc&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lEBZeJUamIc&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

CROCKER: We have no problem with a good, constructive relationship between Iran and Iraq. The problem is with the Iranian strategy of backing extremist militia groups and sending in weapons and munitions that are used against Iraqis and against our own forces.

Obama: "Do we, do we feel, do we feel confident that the Iraqi government is directing these, this aid to these special groups? Do we feel confident about that, or do we think that they're just tacitly tolerating it? Do you have some sense of that?"

CROCKER: "There’s no question in our minds that the Iranian government, in particular the Quds Force, is, this is a conscious, carefully worked-out policy."


So I guess you think poor old senile Obama don't know Iran from Iraq, right?

Talk about "desperate motherfuckers."

Dimension X
05-10-08, 02:15 PM
As far as mistaking that there are fifty states...There have been fifty states as long as Obama's been alive.
And he lived in the fiftieth state, Hawaii, for a while. You'd think he might've picked up that little tidbit along the way. :)

Dimension X
05-10-08, 02:23 PM
If he makes this many mistakes now, just wait until he's under pressure.

WH Military Advisers: "Mr President! The Iranians just nuked Hawaii! What do you want to do?"

Obama: "Why is it that, like, I can't just eat my waffle?"

WH Military Advisers: "Uhm Mr President, you're not eating a waffle, sir. Now about Hawaii..."

Obama: "Oh, who's gonna notice it's gone? It's just one state. We've got like, what, eleventy-seven more, right?"

WH Military Advisers: "Uh yeah... Still, we think people will eventually notice Mr. President, and then they will want you to retaliate."

Obama: "Can I make a, you know, speech about racism or something?"

WH Military Advisers: "Well, we were thinking more along the lines of a military response, sir."

Obama: "I can say my white grandmother nuked Hawaii."

WH Military Advisers: "Ahmadinejad has already appeared on CNN and taken credit for the attack. So it looks like you're gonna have to retaliate against Iran, and not your grandmother, sir."

Obama: "Oh, alright. Bomb Iraq then."

WH Military Advisers: "Don't you mean Iran, Mr. President?"

Obama: "Right, thanks for reminding me. You guys go ahead and bomb Iraq. I'm gonna call Mahmoud and see what he's been up to."

WH Military Advisers: "Fuck! I wish Bush was back in office!"

Obama: "And to think people said I wasn't qualified for this job. This Prime Ministering's easy!"

NCMojo
05-10-08, 02:24 PM
So what is Hillary Clinton hoping to gain from staying in the race until the end of the primaries? A larger voice in the party platform? Some serious face-time at the convention? Is she just stubborn, or does she truly believe that she can somehow turn the tide? Salon had a great article (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/08/deal/) that compared Hillary Clinton's current position to the 1994 Chuck Robb/Doug Wilder US Senate race... a great insiders view of the backroom dealing that occurs around this time of year. The suggest that she push for three things:
Debt Relief
A Major Playform Win
VP Right of First Refusal
Which I think is an interesting list -- although I agree that activist groups and smaller contributors would howl in protest if they learned that their campaign contributions are going to pay back the debt of someone with $100 million in the bank. The right of first refusal is a good idea for her -- and the idea of a platform win on health-care (written by Elizabeth Edwards, a masterstroke) would bolster her credentials in 2012 or 2016.

Dimension X
05-10-08, 02:29 PM
My guess: If she can't pull off the impossible; she'll settle for serious face-time at the convention plus spoiling O's chances to win so she can try again in '12.

NCMojo
05-10-08, 02:34 PM
Seems to me you're the one doing the reaching.

Are you asking for something like this?

So I guess you think poor old senile Obama don't know Iran from Iraq, right?

Talk about "desperate motherfuckers."
Again, there is a mile of difference between an honest slip of the tongue, and making the same "honest" mistake three times in two days. Nobody expects Presidential candidates to be infallible -- but when you can't seem to wrap your head around the significant difference between Shia and Sunni insurgent groups in Iraq, and which one is receiving Iranian aid, and which one is affiliating with al Qaeda -- well, that's a bit more significant.

I'll chose a Democratic analogy, just to be fair. When Hillary Clinton said that she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary, well... I mean, sure, it's not true, but it was a simple misstatement. When she spoke about landing in Bosnia under sniper fire -- and when she repeated the claim, even after video of the event was on the evening news -- well, that's also a bit more significant, and relevent.

NCMojo
05-10-08, 02:37 PM
My guess: If she can't pull off the impossible; she'll settle for serious face-time at the convention plus spoiling O's chances to win so she can try again in '12.
I'm really not sure that she will be considered a viable candidate in 2012 unless she helps to pull together the Democratic Party. It's kind of like John McCain in 2000 -- no way that guy, that "maverick", gets the GOP nod just eight years later. He had to go out of his way to make ammends, to kiss butt and suck up to the Bush administration and religious fundamentalists, to campaign for fellow Republicans, to reinvent himself as a "true conservative", before the party would ever accept him.

If Hillary starts burning bridges, I don't see any way that she would ever be a legitimate candidate again.

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 02:55 PM
So what is Hillary Clinton hoping to gain from staying in the race until the end of the primaries? A larger voice in the party platform? Some serious face-time at the convention? Is she just stubborn, or does she truly believe that she can somehow turn the tide?

It's Hillary. This totally reminds me of Primary Colors.

However, I think if she doesn't win West Virginia or the nomination altogether, the entire state will vote McCain. Including Democrats. :lol:

Hopefully, WV won't make much difference for any election in 2008.

I'm still amazed and shocked and awed the Republicans could not find someone else other than McCain to lead a country. I mean, what a selection for the Republicans. McCain being the choice automatically was just an indication the party is in chaos, and probably a large section is going Democrat. At the same time, I also think we may have Hillary Clinton supporters going McCain because they can't stand a Black Man in office--example: West Virginia.

This is going to be one hell of an election, folks. Definitely buy a DVR if you don't have one. The US Open and the election is the only reason I'm having my cable started again. :lol:

Dimension X
05-10-08, 03:00 PM
I'm really not sure that she will be considered a viable candidate in 2012 unless she helps to pull together the Democratic Party. It's kind of like John McCain in 2000 -- no way that guy, that "maverick", gets the GOP nod just eight years later. He had to go out of his way to make ammends, to kiss butt and suck up to the Bush administration and religious fundamentalists, to campaign for fellow Republicans, to reinvent himself as a "true conservative", before the party would ever accept him.

If Hillary starts burning bridges, I don't see any way that she would ever be a legitimate candidate again.
Wow. You think McCain's done all those things?

You're talking about John McCain, right? Not some other McCain?

And here I thought all he did was get lucky enough to run against a bunch of even bigger losers in the primaries.


Sort of like Obama.

bhk
05-10-08, 05:39 PM
Great examples by Dimension X but just as in the media bias threads we have here, no amount of examples is ever enough for the true believers.

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 07:27 PM
That goes for the Bush Administration as well. Can't have bias flowing one direction while proclaiming you're 100% right.

sracer
05-10-08, 08:27 PM
So what is Hillary Clinton hoping to gain from staying in the race until the end of the primaries? A larger voice in the party platform? Some serious face-time at the convention? Is she just stubborn, or does she truly believe that she can somehow turn the tide? Salon had a great article (http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/08/deal/) that compared Hillary Clinton's current position to the 1994 Chuck Robb/Doug Wilder US Senate race... a great insiders view of the backroom dealing that occurs around this time of year. The suggest that she push for three things:
Debt Relief
A Major Playform Win
VP Right of First Refusal
Which I think is an interesting list -- although I agree that activist groups and smaller contributors would howl in protest if they learned that their campaign contributions are going to pay back the debt of someone with $100 million in the bank. The right of first refusal is a good idea for her -- and the idea of a platform win on health-care (written by Elizabeth Edwards, a masterstroke) would bolster her credentials in 2012 or 2016.
Why should she drop out? Neither Obama nor Clinton have the required number of delegates to clinch the nomination. If there was so much concern about the duration of the primary season, then the Democratic party should've moved back their convention.

NCMojo
05-10-08, 08:51 PM
Wow. You think McCain's done all those things?

You're talking about John McCain, right? Not some other McCain?[/url]
Umm, you have been paying attention to the news the last few years, right? Nothing I said in my post should come as any kind of surprise... the myth that McCain is still some kind of "moderate maverick" is the primary reason why he continues to place respectibly in popular opinion polls. But it is the polar opposite of the John McCain that has emerged since losing his 2000 Presidential campaign.
[QUOTE=Dimension X]And here I thought all he did was get lucky enough to run against a bunch of even bigger losers in the primaries.
Sort of like Obama.
To a certain degree, you're right -- McCain's biggest strength is simply that he was the best of a weak field. And it's probably true that some of the Democratic Party's best candidates -- Mark Warner, Al Gore, Wesley Clark -- declined to run in 2008, and Barack Obama has benefited from the weakened field.

But that's hardly a new phenomenom. The question isn't how good the rest of the field is -- the question is how good you are at end.

NCMojo
05-10-08, 08:54 PM
Why should she drop out? Neither Obama nor Clinton have the required number of delegates to clinch the nomination. If there was so much concern about the duration of the primary season, then the Democratic party should've moved back their convention.
Because there is no way she can win. She won't get enough pledged delegates, she won't win the popular vote, and she can't make a convincing case to a group of superdelegates that desperately fear coming out on the wrong side of popular opinion.

And further, the protracted race has hurt not only Barack Obama, and not only the Democratic Party, but her own political career as well. The longer she stays in, the deeper a hole that she digs for herself. In any race, you have to candidly consider your prospects and know the right time to fold your hand.

NCMojo
05-10-08, 08:55 PM
Great examples by Dimension X but just as in the media bias threads we have here, no amount of examples is ever enough for the true believers.
Ah, the irony... the delicious, succulent irony... :rolleyes:

GreenMonkey
05-10-08, 09:30 PM
Because there is no way she can win. She won't get enough pledged delegates, she won't win the popular vote, and she can't make a convincing case to a group of superdelegates that desperately fear coming out on the wrong side of popular opinion.

And further, the protracted race has hurt not only Barack Obama, and not only the Democratic Party, but her own political career as well. The longer she stays in, the deeper a hole that she digs for herself. In any race, you have to candidly consider your prospects and know the right time to fold your hand.

I disagree and agree with sracer.

It is possible - however unlikely - that Obama does something really stupid enough to sway her a majority of votes. Like someone catches him on tape admitting he's a secret Muslim whitey hater.

Or something.

I'm suprised she is still spending her own money like she can win, though. It does seem like a longshot at this point.

DVD Polizei
05-10-08, 10:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Hillary uses her magic and starts an Obama controversy on her own. Like she isn't screaming, "How the fuck can we take Obama down???!!!"

Obama has a two-front war, unfortunately. He's accused of being a terrorist from McCain and a racist black man by Republicans in general, and Hillary is starting to imply she's the White Man's vote in West Virginia. I mean, it's pretty pathetic. I think Obama has been pretty honest with his arguments ever since his entrance into this.

The tactics I once disapproved of by Blacks using the race card, we see Hillary doing just as much. It's a rather sad observation, and I hope this only fuels more people like me to give a big middle finger to Hillary, and vote for Obama. It only goes to show how Hillary will do anything to get her power seat she's been dreaming about ever since Bill sat his ass in it.

Paul Begala sure didn't help matters by his own statements on CNN.

Th0r S1mpson
05-10-08, 10:14 PM
He's accused of being a terrorist from McCain and a racist black man by Republicans in general... I mean, it's pretty pathetic.

Yes, it would be pretty pathetic. If it was even 2% true. :confused:

NCMojo
05-10-08, 10:21 PM
Yes, it would be pretty pathetic. If it was even 2% true. :confused:
I'm also confused. Are you implying that Obama is a terrorist or a racist? :confused::confused::confused:

BKenn01
05-10-08, 10:31 PM
I think Obama has been pretty honest with his arguments ever since his entrance into this.


It is his friends who are tearing him down. Did the guy really think his bigot of a pastor wouldnt become an issue. Or his _____________ (fill in the blank) relationship with the terrorist who bombed the Pentagon.

To a certain degree, you're right -- McCain's biggest strength is simply that he was the best of a weak field. And it's probably true that some of the Democratic Party's best candidates -- Mark Warner, Al Gore, Wesley Clark -- declined to run in 2008, and Barack Obama has benefited from the weakened field.

Well I would throw Evan Bayh into the mix, but that has been to McCains benefit. You cant forget the diarreah of the mouth by George Allen last year that unfortunatley (just my opinion) cost him his senate seat and probably the front runner status and candicy for the GOP. He was far more electible than Huckabee and would have made a strong alternative.

I'm still amazed and shocked and awed the Republicans could not find someone else other than McCain to lead a country. I mean, what a selection for the Republicans. McCain being the choice automatically was just an indication the party is in chaos, and probably a large section is going Democrat. At the same time, I also think we may have Hillary Clinton supporters going McCain because they can't stand a Black Man in office--example: West Virginia.

So a large section of the GOP is going to vote Democrat, but a bunch of Hillary supporters are going to vote for McCain? :wtf:

JasonF
05-10-08, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=Dimension X]Wow. You think McCain's done all those things?

You're talking about John McCain, right? Not some other McCain?[/url]
Umm, you have been paying attention to the news the last few years, right? Nothing I said in my post should come as any kind of surprise... the myth that McCain is still some kind of "moderate maverick" is the primary reason why he continues to place respectibly in popular opinion polls. But it is the polar opposite of the John McCain that has emerged since losing his 2000 Presidential campaign.

To a certain degree, you're right -- McCain's biggest strength is simply that he was the best of a weak field. And it's probably true that some of the Democratic Party's best candidates -- Mark Warner, Al Gore, Wesley Clark -- declined to run in 2008, and Barack Obama has benefited from the weakened field.

But that's hardly a new phenomenom. The question isn't how good the rest of the field is -- the question is how good you are at end.

When has either party ever put forth a "strong field" of candidates. Bitching about the pathetic candidates every four years is our national sport, and neither Governor Warner nor Vice President Gore nor General Clark is any stronger than the candidates we got.


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