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JasonF
04-04-08, 03:58 PM
Today is forty years since Dr. King was assassinated. To put that in perspective, 13 years elapsed between the time he came on the national stage with the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the time he died -- he's been gone for over 3 times that long.

Here is a portion of the speech he gave the night before he died:
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Here is the speech he gave during 1963's march on Washington, as he stood in the shadow of another great American taken from us too early:
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And here we are forty years later in an America where a black man is a viable candidate for the presidency. I wonder what Dr. King would think of the world in which we live less than half a century after he delivered his famous "I Have A Dream" speech.

Artman
04-04-08, 06:11 PM
What a contrast to a certain pastor from Chicago...

JasonF
04-04-08, 07:02 PM
What a contrast to a certain pastor from Chicago...

-ohbfrank- Much less difference than you would think.

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Artman
04-04-08, 07:29 PM
No, actually it's a world of difference... MLK was against the war(s) of the time, but he criticized them in at least a constructive way...leading and inspiring people to look toward the greatness that we as a people could achieve.

Steer me towards some positive, pro-America messages from Rev Wright...I'm all ears.

JasonF
04-04-08, 08:09 PM
No, actually it's a world of difference... MLK was against the war(s) of the time, but he criticized them in at least a constructive way...leading and inspiring people to look toward the greatness that we as a people could achieve.

That's a very sanitized view of Dr. King. He wasn't shot because he was friendly and non-threatening. He always had one hand out in friendship, but he also offered stinging rebukes to those who were in the wrong.

Steer me towards some positive, pro-America messages from Rev Wright...I'm all ears.

I'm spoilerizing this because I don't really want this thread to be about Reverend Wright.

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For that matter, here's the whole sermon you've probably only heard 10 seconds from:

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I'll also refer you to Reverend Wright's biography (copied from wikipedia)

From 1959 to 1961, Wright attended Virginia Union University, in Richmond. Inspired by President John F. Kennedy's 1961 challenge to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," Wright gave up his student deferment, left college and joined the United States Marine Corps and became part of the 2nd Marine Division with the rank of private first class. In 1963, after two years of service, Wright then transferred to the United States Navy and entered the Corpsman School at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where he graduated as valedictorian. Having excelled in corpsman school, Wright was then trained as a cardiopulmonary technician at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland where he graduated as salutatorian. Wright was assigned as part of the medical team charged with care of President Lyndon B. Johnson's (see photo of Wright caring for Johnson after his 1966 surgery). Before leaving the position in 1967, the White House awarded Wright with three letters of commendation.

Those are not the actions of a man who hates America, or hates whites.

I'd also ask you to consider Reverend Wright's biblical namesake.

Anyway, here's three whole pages of Trinity sermons, mostly from Reverend Wright:

http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=TRINITYCHGO

Quite frankly, if you don't understand that Reverend Wright is following in the footsteps of Dr. King in terms of his priorities and his style, you are ignorant of one or both of the men.

Now I'm through talking about Reverend Wright in this thread.

sracer
04-04-08, 08:13 PM
-ohbfrank- Much less difference than you would think.

Hey, it's okay to support Barak Obama and want to see him be president. There's no need to strain to defend Rev Wright in the process unless you believe that Obama's connection to him is a legitimate criticism.

Show me a video clip of Dr. King gyrating in a vulgar manner and I might agree that there is much less difference.


No, actually it's a world of difference... MLK was against the war(s) of the time, but he criticized them in at least a constructive way...leading and inspiring people to look toward the greatness that we as a people could achieve.

Steer me towards some positive, pro-America messages from Rev Wright...I'm all ears.
Same here. We've been told repeatedly that the overwhelming majority of Rev Wright's sermons were nothing like the short clips being played. The more I look, the less I find. Rev Wright is closer to Reverend X than MLK.

Dr Mabuse
04-04-08, 08:18 PM
Martin Luther King Jr was a hell of a man...

he used to scold those guys around him... tell them to back off...

early on they would wonder at this nonsense...

he would say "it's coming some time, don't be stupid and get in the way"...

and he did his work...

not many like that fella... what a man...

Ky-Fi
04-04-08, 09:20 PM
I thought this was a good piece from Juan Williams:


Obama and King

By JUAN WILLIAMS
April 4, 2008

Martin Luther King Jr. died at age 39; today, the 40th anniversary of his death, is the first time he has been gone longer than he lived.

Figures such as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have tried to claim his place on the American stage. But at most they have achieved fame and wealth. What separated King from any would-be successor was his moral authority. He towered above the high walls of racial suspicion by speaking truth to all sides.

Now comes Barack Obama, a black man and a plausible national leader, who appeals across racial lines. But to his black and white supporters, Mr. Obama increasingly represents different things.

The initial base of support for Mr. Obama's presidential campaign came from young whites who saw in him the ability to take the nation to a place where, to quote from King's "I Have A Dream" speech, "we shall be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood."

Black voters rallied to Mr. Obama after whites in Iowa and New Hampshire showed they were willing to vote for him. Mr. Obama spoke directly to charges that he was not "black enough," that he was not a child of the civil rights movement because he grew up in Hawaii and has an Ivy League education, that he is too young, it is not his time, and even that his campaign is too risky because white racists might kill him.

Mr. Obama, his wife Michelle and supporters such as Oprah Winfrey make the case to black voters that he is the fruit of the struggles of King and others. They argue that this generation of black Americans does not have to wait for their turn to reach for the ultimate political power of the presidency.

Mr. Obama has carried a message of pride and self-sufficiency to black voters nationwide, who have rewarded him with support reaching 80% and higher. His candidacy has become, as the headline on Ebony magazine put it, a matter of having a black man as president "In Our Lifetime."

Among his white supporters, race is coincidental, not central, to his political identity. Mr. Obama is to them the candidate who personifies the promise of equal opportunity for all. But as black support has become central to his victories, this idealistic view has been increasingly at war with the portrayal, crafted by the senator to win black support, of him as the black candidate. The terrible tension between these racially distinct views now surrounds and threatens his campaign.

So far, Mr. Obama has been content to let black people have their vision of him while white people hold to a separate, segregated reality. He is a politician and, unlike King, his goal is winning votes, not changing hearts. Still, it is a key break from the King tradition to sell different messages to different audiences based on race, and to fail to challenge racial divisions in the nation.

Mr. Obama's major speech on race last month was forced from him only after a political crisis erupted: It became widely known that he'd sat for 20 years in the pews of a church where Rev. Jeremiah Wright lashed out at white people. The minister cursed America as worthy of damnation, made lewd suggestions about the nature of President Clinton's relationship with black voters, and embraced the paranoid idea that the white government was spreading AIDS among black people.


Here is where the racial tension at the heart of Mr. Obama's campaign flared into view. He either shared these beliefs or, lacking good judgment, decided it politically expedient for an ambitious young black politician trying to prove his solidarity with all things black, to be associated with these rants. His judgment and leadership on the critical issue of race is in question.

While speaking to black people, King never condescended to offer Rev. Wright-style diatribes or conspiracy theories. He did not paint black people as victims. To the contrary, he spoke about black people as American patriots who believed in the democratic ideals of the country, in nonviolence and the Judeo-Christian ethic, even as they overcame slavery, discrimination and disadvantage. King challenged white America to do the same, to live up to their ideals and create racial unity. He challenged white Christians, asking them how they could treat their fellow black Christians as anything but brothers in Christ.

When King spoke about the racist past, he gloried in black people beating the odds to win equal rights by arming "ourselves with dignity and self-respect." He expressed regret that some black leaders reveled in grievance, malice and self-indulgent anger in place of a focus on strong families, education and love of God. Even in the days before Congress passed civil rights laws, King spoke to black Americans about the pride that comes from "assuming primary responsibility" for achieving "first class citizenship."

Last March in Selma, Ala., Mr. Obama appeared on the verge of breaking away from the merchants of black grievance and victimization. At a commemoration of the 1965 Selma-to-Montgomery march for voting rights, he spoke in a King-like voice. He focused on traditions of black sacrifice, idealism and the need for taking personal responsibility for building strong black families and communities. He said black people should never "deny that its gotten better," even as the movement goes on to improve schools and provide good health care for all Americans. He then challenged black America, by saying that "government alone can't solve all those problems . . . it is not enough just to ask what the government can do for us -- it's important for us to ask what we can do for ourselves."

Mr. Obama added that better education for black students begins with black parents visiting their children's teachers, as well as turning off the television so children can focus on homework. He expressed alarm over the lack of appreciation for education in the black community: "I don't know who taught them that reading and writing and conjugating your verbs were something white. We've got to get over that mentality." King, he added later, believed that black America has to first "transform ourselves in order to transform the world."

But as his campaign made headway with black voters, Mr. Obama no longer spoke about the responsibility and the power of black America to appeal to the conscience and highest ideals of the nation. He no longer asks black people to let go of the grievance culture to transcend racial arguments and transform the world.

He has stopped all mention of government's inability to create strong black families, while the black community accepts a 70% out-of-wedlock birth rate. Half of black and Hispanic children drop out of high school, but he no longer touches on the need for parents to convey a love of learning to their children. There is no mention in his speeches of the history of expensive but ineffective government programs that encourage dependency. He fails to point out the failures of too many poverty programs, given the 25% poverty rate in black America.

And he chooses not to confront the poisonous "thug life" culture in rap music that glorifies drug use and crime.

Instead the senator, in a full political pander, is busy excusing Rev. Wright's racial attacks as the right of the Rev.-Wright generation of black Americans to define the nation's future by their past. He stretches compassion to the breaking point by equating his white grandmother's private concerns about black men on the street with Rev. Wright's public stirring of racial division.

And he wasted time in his Philadelphia speech on race by saying he can't "disown" Rev. Wright any more than he could "disown the black community." No one has asked him to disown Rev. Wright. Only in a later appearance on "The View" television show did he say that he would have left the church if Rev. Wright had not retired and not acknowledged his offensive language.

As the nation tries to recall the meaning of Martin Luther King today, Mr. Obama's campaign has become a mirror reflecting where we are on race 40 years after the assassination. Mr. Obama's success has moved forward the story of American race relations; King would have been thrilled with his political triumphs.

But when Barack Obama, arguably the best of this generation of black or white leaders, finds it easy to sit in Rev. Wright's pews and nod along with wacky and bitterly divisive racial rhetoric, it does call his judgment into question. And it reveals a continuing crisis in racial leadership.

What would Jesus do? There is no question he would have left that church.



Mr. Williams is a political analyst for National Public Radio and Fox News.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120726732176388295.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

Ranger
04-04-08, 10:29 PM
Obama and Wright do not belong in the same sentence with MLK, certainly not in the same thread or article.

Now the larger point is that we should put history into perspective by looking at how blacks have progressed.

America is still so young, I imagine that it'll be a couple hundred years before blacks are able to overcome their own social problems.

Rockmjd23
04-04-08, 10:35 PM
There really hasn't been any successor-type to King. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are just punchlines now, Farrakhan is a racist. The most visible blacks in the country are rappers and athletes. If you are a young black man, it's tough to find a role model in the media because they aren't given any publicity.

Maybe Obama can change that, but how much can the average black really relate to him?

JasonF
04-04-08, 10:41 PM
There really hasn't been any successor-type to King.

There have been successors to Dr. King, but none of them are in his league. Which is understandable -- Dr. King is probably the greatest American of the 20th century, and one of the five greatest Americans of all time. We can no more fill his shoes than we could fill Washington's or Lincoln's. There can be (and have been) people who succeed him, but none who can ever replace him.

Rockmjd23
04-04-08, 11:03 PM
There have been successors to Dr. King
Perhaps, but how often do we hear about them compared to those who have fallen such as James Bevel, Julian Bond, Jesse Jackson, James Lawson, Al Sharpton etc etc. Is the media at fault?
but none of them are in his league. Which is understandable -- Dr. King is probably the greatest American of the 20th century, and one of the five greatest Americans of all time. We can no more fill his shoes than we could fill Washington's or Lincoln's. There can be (and have been) people who succeed him, but none who can ever replace him.
I agree with all of the above. Noone could ever replace him, but it would be nice if we ever heard about positive things from people trying to follow in his footsteps. Is the mainstream media unfair to black leaders these days?

Artman
04-05-08, 12:38 AM
Hey thanks for posting that Ky, i think that was the one I was searching for online... it was the one Medved was talking about on his show today. Excellent piece.

Artman
04-05-08, 12:53 AM
For that matter, here's the whole sermon you've probably only heard 10 seconds from:

I'll also refer you to Reverend Wright's biography (copied from wikipedia)

Those are not the actions of a man who hates America, or hates whites.

I'd also ask you to consider Reverend Wright's biblical namesake.

Anyway, here's three whole pages of Trinity sermons, mostly from Reverend Wright:

Quite frankly, if you don't understand that Reverend Wright is following in the footsteps of Dr. King in terms of his priorities and his style, you are ignorant of one or both of the men.

Now I'm through talking about Reverend Wright in this thread.

The sermon wasn't showing up... anyways I did look at some of the material... while some of it sounds good, and the church indeed has some good works to show... I can't help but think of the passage "you've lost your first love.."

I don't judge the man's soul...but I do judge his actions (as I am indeed called to as a fellow brother in Christ) and while some appear to be good, I cannot help but be grieved by others. As far as I'm concerned all would be forgiven if he himself humbly spoke about his statements in question... but so far he hasn't. Whenever he's ready though, I'll be listening.

Jason
04-05-08, 09:16 AM
What would Jesus do? There is no question he would have left that church.

Wouldn't he have spoken with him and at least attempted to touch his heart? Or offer some wisdom? Or at the very least tell him the score?

Oh, what am I thinking, he's not talking about Jesus, he's talking about Republican Jesus (copyright News Corp, All Rights Reserved)

Ky-Fi
04-05-08, 09:28 AM
Wouldn't he have spoken with him and at least attempted to touch his heart? Or offer some wisdom? Or at the very least tell him the score?

Oh, what am I thinking, he's not talking about Jesus, he's talking about Republican Jesus (copyright News Corp, All Rights Reserved)

Okay, so now Juan Williams is a Christian Right Winger Republican shill. -ohbfrank-

GeoffK
04-05-08, 10:39 AM
McCain certainly has a pair.

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/04/04/mccain-martin-luther-who/

X
04-05-08, 10:56 AM
McCain certainly has a pair.

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/04/04/mccain-martin-luther-who/And he doesn't even have Secret Service protection yet!

Dr Mabuse
04-05-08, 11:22 AM
i would have preferred he stayed with "i was wrong"...

"i thought i knew, but i didn't, i was wrong"...

Th0r S1mpson
04-05-08, 11:54 AM
Obama and Wright do not belong in the same sentence with MLK, certainly not in the same thread or article.
Agreed on Wright, but Obama? This man has a strong chance at being the next president of the United States. He has not crossed that plane yet, but he's worth looking at here. If he secures the nomination, it's big. Attains the Presidency... hard to fathom the impact on our nation.

As just a democratic candidate, I agree that any fanfare is perhaps premature, but not to be ignored.

He is still a young Obama. He has the potential for greatness, but I don't think anyone would argue that his accomplishments cannot be measured against King at this point. But come on... he's the man of the day right now so it doesn't hurt anyone to look at him and realize the change that represents since the time of King's battlefield.

sracer
04-05-08, 11:56 AM
i would have preferred he stayed with "i was wrong"...

"i thought i knew, but i didn't, i was wrong"...
McCain is making a habit of stating "I was wrong". And while I can appreciate his accepting the responsibility and acknowledging his mistakes rather than try to spin them into truth, I don't think I'd feel comfortable voting for a man that is consistently wrong on issues.

Dr Mabuse
04-05-08, 12:13 PM
McCain is making a habit of stating "I was wrong". And while I can appreciate his accepting the responsibility and acknowledging his mistakes rather than try to spin them into truth, I don't think I'd feel comfortable voting for a man that is consistently wrong on issues.

and him stating 'i was wrong' makes him stand out amongst politicians to me, i heard that part... makes him stand out from both parties, none ever say "i was wrong", and the few that do use disclaimers and rationalizations... too many bullshit artists, i mean 'campaign managers' tell them NEVER do that... even if you shoot a guy in the face with a shotgun... :lol:

on your second point...

yeah... i see that...

i meant instead of some of the 'it just wasn't an issue stuff' he kept repeating...

but since you put it the way you do... i see your point...

some guy goes around "i was wrong" all the time... yeah let's elect HIM to be wrong some more and in charge of our country...

somehow, in politics, people need to pretend a candidate is more than human... with a Tyrell company logo in their teeth or hair or something... even though they all screw up in so many ways, some quite profound...

them admitting it makes it 'real' to voters is guess... Marion Barry saying 'i was entrapped!!! it's racism!!!' did serve him well i suppose...

wm lopez
04-05-08, 05:34 PM
Obama and Wright do not belong in the same sentence with MLK, certainly not in the same thread or article.

Now the larger point is that we should put history into perspective by looking at how blacks have progressed.

America is still so young, I imagine that it'll be a couple hundred years before blacks are able to overcome their own social problems. It is up to blacks. Ebonics or hip-hop is not taught in the public school system and there is a proper way to speak and write which the inner city youth has refused to learn.
Put that with the poor parenting and the bad black leaders like Rev. Wright and Farakhan,Jesse, Sharpton and you have today what you have.

Artman
04-06-08, 07:40 PM
America is still so young, I imagine that it'll be a couple hundred years before blacks are able to overcome their own social problems.

:hscratch:

You mean things like the out of wedlock birthrate, etc? Why would it take hundreds of yrs to do that? A family can change in a generation, a person can change their life for the better in a matter of days (or months, yrs, depending on the issue) I guess I don't quite get the statement.

Ranger
04-06-08, 09:26 PM
Out of wedlock births, missing fathers, poverty, high unemployment, dependence on welfare, crime, etc.

It certainly will take a long time to overcome these, because it's a cycle.

Artman
04-08-08, 07:16 PM
Out of wedlock births, missing fathers, poverty, high unemployment, dependence on welfare, crime, etc.

It certainly will take a long time to overcome these, because it's a cycle.

So as a collective group is what you're referring to? Not that a black individual isn't as capable as the next person to make personal changes...am I on target?

Ranger
04-08-08, 10:08 PM
Yeah, nothing to do with individual cpaacity. American blacks have come a long way from slavery, civil war, and segregation but I think they have some serious social issues that affect them, yes, as a collective group. These issues will gradually decrease with each passing generation, I just happen to believe that'll take 200 years, certainly not overnight or the next decade.


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