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General Zod
01-31-08, 03:26 PM
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_8120433?source=rss

Berkeley council tells Marines to leave
Hey-hey, ho-ho, the Marines in Berkeley have got to go.

That's the message from the Berkeley City Council, which voted 6-3 Tuesday night to tell the U.S. Marines that its Shattuck Avenue recruiting station "is not welcome in the city, and if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders."

In addition, the council voted to explore enforcing its law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation against the Marines because of the military's don't ask, don't tell policy. And it officially encouraged the women's peace group Code Pink to impede the work of the Marines in the city by protesting in front of the station.

In a separate item, the council voted 8-1 to give Code Pink a designated parking space in front of the recruiting station once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week from noon to 4 p.m.

Councilman Gordon Wozniak opposed both items.

The Marines have been in Berkeley for a little more than a year, having moved from Alameda in December of 2006. For about the past four months, Code Pink has been protesting in front of the station.

"I believe in the Code Pink cause. The Marines don't belong here, they shouldn't have come here, and they should leave," said Berkeley Mayor Tom Bates after votes were cast.

A Marines representative did not respond to requests for comment.

The resolution telling the Marines they are unwelcome and directing the city attorney to explore issues of sexual orientation discrimination was brought to the council by the city's Peace and Justice commission.

The recommendation to give Code Pink a parking space for protesting and a free sound permit was brought by council members Linda Maio and Max Anderson.

Code Pink on Wednesday started circulating petitions to put a measure on the November ballot in Berkeley that would make it more difficult to open military recruiting offices near homes, parks, schools, churches libraries or health clinics. The group needs 5,000 signatures to make the ballot.

Even though the council items passed, not everyone is happy with the work of Code Pink. Some employees and owners of businesses near the Marines office have had enough of the group and its protests.

"My husband's business is right upstairs, and this (protesting) is bordering on harassment," Dori Schmidt told the council. "I hope this stops."

An employee of a nearby business who asked not to be identified said Wednesday the elderly Code Pink protesters are aggressive, take up parking spaces, block the sidewalk with their yoga moves, smoke in the doorways, and are noisy.

"Most of the people around here think they're a joke," the woman said.

Wozniak said he was opposed to giving Code Pink a parking space because it favors free speech rights of one group over another.

"There's a line between protesting and harassing, and that concerns me," Wozniak said. "It looks like we are showing favoritism. We have to respect the other side, and not abuse their rights. This is not good policy."

Ninety-year-old Fran Rachel, a Code Pink protester who spoke at the council meeting, said the group's request for a parking space and noise permit was especially important because the Marines are recruiting soldiers who may die in an unjust war.

"This is very serious," Rachel said. "This isn't a game; it's mass murder. There's a sickness of silence of people not speaking out against the war. We have to do this."

Anderson, a former Marine who said he was "drummed out" of the corps when he took a stand against the Vietnam War, said he'd love to see the Marines high tale it out of town.

"We are confronted with an organization that can spend billions of dollars on propaganda," Anderson said. "This is not Okinawa here; we're involved in a naked act of aggression. If we can provide a space for ordinary people to express themselves against this kind of barbarity, then we should be doing it."

If we ever unfortunately get attacked by terrorists again I think the idiot city of Berkeley would not be a bad target. Not bad at all. I bet they'd want the Marines there then.

bhk
01-31-08, 03:33 PM
Why would the terrorists attack the one location where they have allies?

LiquidSky
01-31-08, 03:44 PM
Recruiting offices should be allowed. No one is forcing anyone to go in.

Tsar Chasm
01-31-08, 03:57 PM
Well, thankfully, Berkeley still has the national guard to protect them.

oh, wait.

mosquitobite
01-31-08, 04:02 PM
Recruiting offices should be allowed. No one is forcing anyone to go in.
Agreed. I just don't understand the animosity towards recruiting. Be anti-war all you want, but don't be anti-troops (which is all this comes across to me).

The nation needs the army, the marines, and the air force whether you agree with war or not. To think otherwise is the utmost in utopia fantasyland.

Jason
01-31-08, 04:55 PM
I sometimes think Berkeley does things like this just to make wingers' heads asplode.

spainlinx0
01-31-08, 05:00 PM
I can't understand the rationale behind a move like this. Do they think if they can stop recruiting, they can end our military, and therefore end all war resulting in some utopian peace? Just a weird, bad move.

Red Dog
01-31-08, 05:10 PM
This is absurd.

And then is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard:
In a separate item, the council voted 8-1 to give Code Pink a designated parking space in front of the recruiting station once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week from noon to 4 p.m.

WTF!? :hscratch:

kvrdave
01-31-08, 05:20 PM
I believe that if I were an abortion clinic protestor, I would sue for a parking spot in front of clinics or sue for discrimination.

I hope this backfires on them, as it is a new level of stupid I didn't think hippies were capable of.

Oh, and this IS supporting the troops. -wink-

Ky-Fi
01-31-08, 05:32 PM
I think this is a great first step, but really they should keep going, and pursue this line of thinking along its logical path. After all, what are the police? An armed quasi-military state-controlled fascist force, enforcing their rules with violence.

I think once the Marines are gone, they should really work to get the police out of there, as well.

classicman2
01-31-08, 05:51 PM
I can remember when Berkely (Univ. of Calif.) used to be referred to as the 'little red school house.'

I actually attended the little red school house for 1 semester. It was weird experience.

al_bundy
01-31-08, 06:00 PM
did that taxing espresso thing ever pass?

wishbone
01-31-08, 06:50 PM
http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/cartoons/09-18-07-justin-defreitas.jpg

ukywyldcat
01-31-08, 07:20 PM
What a bunch of douchebags.

Tuan Jim
01-31-08, 08:45 PM
Here's a little more background on the Berkeley Marines situation (good reading and great pics):

http://www.zombietime.com/code_pink_vs_marines_10-7-2007/

General Zod
01-31-08, 09:07 PM
DeMint to Berkeley: Support Our Marines or Lose Federal Funds

Washington, D.C. – Today, U.S. Senator Jim DeMint (R-South Carolina) released the following statement in response to the decision by the City Council of Berkeley, California to evict the U.S. Marine Corps Recruiting Station from the city.

“This is a slap in the face to all brave service men and women and their families. The First Amendment gives the City of Berkeley the right to be idiotic, but from now on they should do it with their own money. If the city can’t show respect for the Marines that have fought, bled and died for their freedom, Berkeley should not be receiving special taxpayer funded handouts. I am currently drafting legislation to ensure that American taxpayers aren’t forced to pay for this insult by rescinding all of the earmarks for Berkeley in the Omnibus Appropriations bill, and to transfer the funds to the Marine Corps.”

:up:

Tsar Chasm
01-31-08, 09:44 PM
:up:

Yet I have no doubt you'd be the first person screaming bloody murder if some hippy from Berkeley told South Carolina what to do.

Hey Palmetto State, STFU and mind your own business.

General Zod
01-31-08, 09:55 PM
Yet I have no doubt you'd be the first person screaming bloody murder if some hippy from Berkeley told South Carolina what to do.

Hey Palmetto State, STFU and mind your own business.
The Marines are not a California only organization. They are here to protect ALL Americans. One idiot city doing this is flipping the bird to every citizen of every state.

And, for the record, I hate all hippies...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/general_zod/hippie.jpg

ukywyldcat
01-31-08, 09:56 PM
<img src=http://www.zombietime.com/code_pink_vs_marines_10-7-2007/IMG_9351.JPG>

Interesting. Its difficult to read the black box in this pic, but does it say "Iraq US 1,001,9713,78 Dead"?

First, have over a billion people been killed in Iraq? Really? Wow. I never realized Iraq had more than a billion people, because certainly there must be another billion still alive there, as pics from Baghdad and the area show tons of people in the streets.

Also, I'm amused by the comma placement on this van too. We are dealing with geniuses.

orangerory
01-31-08, 10:12 PM
Interesting. Its difficult to read the black box in this pic, but does it say "Iraq US 1,001,9713,78 Dead"?

First, have over a billion people been killed in Iraq? Really? Wow. I never realized Iraq had more than a billion people, because certainly there must be another billion still alive there, as pics from Baghdad and the area show tons of people in the streets.

Also, I'm amused by the comma placement on this van too. We are dealing with geniuses.

Just to clarify - I think the truck says:

Iraq: 1,001,971
USA: 3,781 (the last number is blue?)

(not that I'm defending their message). I'm against the war but agree that these protests are silly. I thought the marine recruiter's letter was a pretty good response.

http://www.zombietime.com/code_pink_vs_marines_10-7-2007/IMG_9393.JPG

ukywyldcat
01-31-08, 10:33 PM
I think you may be right. That "1" is very difficult to see.

General Zod
01-31-08, 10:39 PM
Well after you paint over the same spot 1,005,752 times I guess the paint begins to build up...

mosquitobite
02-01-08, 06:51 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/us/01berkeley.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

In taking on the Marines, the council also directed the city attorney to investigate legal means of ousting the recruiting station, calling the Marines “uninvited and unwelcome intruders” in this bastion of liberal politics, 1960s free speech and high-minded nonbinding resolutions.

Tom Bates, the city’s mayor and a former Army man himself, said the vote represented his constituents’ longstanding — and frequently vocal — distaste for current military activity.

“Berkeley has been opposed to the Iraq war since the beginning; it’s overwhelmingly unpopular in this community,” Mr. Bates said. “And people feel this is an opportunity to express their discontent.”
_____________________________________________________
I just don't understand how they think this is in any way helping to protest the war? :hscratch:

crazyronin
02-01-08, 07:09 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/us/01berkeley.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

In taking on the Marines, the council also directed the city attorney to investigate legal means of ousting the recruiting station, calling the Marines “uninvited and unwelcome intruders” in this bastion of liberal politics, 1960s free speech and high-minded nonbinding resolutions.

Tom Bates, the city’s mayor and a former Army man himself, said the vote represented his constituents’ longstanding — and frequently vocal — distaste for current military activity.

“Berkeley has been opposed to the Iraq war since the beginning; it’s overwhelmingly unpopular in this community,” Mr. Bates said. “And people feel this is an opportunity to express their discontent.”
i_____________________________________________________
I just don't understand how they think this is in any way helping to protest the war? :hscratch:

Allow me to explain it, they are a bunch of fucking idiots.

Since their removal order seems to be another one of Berkley's moronic non-binding resolutions, I would make the sign to the recruiting office as large and garish as local ordinances allow. I would make myself as large a thorn in the side of the City Council as I could. I would attend every single City Council meeting in full uniform, just to remind them of their impotency in removing me.

Berkley's motto should be "I'm all for free speech...unless it contradicts my ideals."

wishbone
02-01-08, 08:14 AM
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/IjLyz8OAj1s&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/IjLyz8OAj1s&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
They should station a marine drill team in front of the office.
This should keep the protesters at a distance. :D

GreenMonkey
02-01-08, 08:40 AM
Agreed. I just don't understand the animosity towards recruiting. Be anti-war all you want, but don't be anti-troops (which is all this comes across to me).

The nation needs the army, the marines, and the air force whether you agree with war or not. To think otherwise is the utmost in utopia fantasyland.

Agreed.

Tuan Jim
02-04-08, 09:44 PM
Update from Zombie!

http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marine_corps_2-1-2008/

Apparently Code Pink is the only private organization with a reserved parking spot in the entire city of Berkeley.

General Zod
02-04-08, 11:30 PM
Update.. I guess they are finally beginning to discover they are idiots..

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/04/BAHVUS06B.DTL

Berkeley to rethink its declaration against the Marines

A week after blasting the Marines as "unwelcome intruders" in Berkeley, two city council members want the city to back off the declaration that ignited the wrath of the nation's right wing and inspired a Republican senator to try to sever Berkeley's federal funding.

Council members Betty Olds and Laurie Capitelli proposed today that Berkeley rescind its letter to the U.S. Marine Corps that stated that the downtown Berkeley recruiting center "is not welcome in our city," and publicly declare that Berkeley is against the war but supports the troops.

The city council will vote on Olds' and Capitelli's two proposals at its Feb. 12 meeting.

"I think we shouldn't be seen across the country as hating the Marines," said Olds, who voted against last week's proposals. "If you make a mistake, like we did, you should admit it and correct it and move on."

The brouhaha started last week when the council passed two items condemning the Marine recruiting center on Shattuck Square, which opened about a year ago. The first called on the city clerk to send a letter to the Marines telling them they're unwelcome, and the second item grants Code Pink a parking space in front of the recruiting office every Wednesday afternoon and allows the group to operate a loudspeaker. After the items passed, the council was besieged with criticism from right-wing groups and military supporters. Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.) proposed that the federal government cut off funds for Berkeley, including lunch programs, ferry service and UC Berkeley.

Olds said she heard from hundreds of people angered by the city's action, including many in her Berkeley hills district.

"People are so mad about this. They have relatives in the service and now they think they're not welcome in Berkeley," she said. "My twin brother was a Marine in World War II. He'd be turning in his grave if he saw this."

The council appears split on the idea of backing down. Some council members said the original proposals inadvertently insulted veterans and those currently serving in the military. Others said Berkeley should stand by its convictions.

"People are used to Berkeley taking a stand for peace, but you have to do it intelligently," said Councilman Kriss Worthington, who voted against sending the letter calling the Marine Corps unwelcome. "You don't want to slap one group in the face and then, the next minute, slap the other group. I think we have an obligation to be thoughtful and sensitive and not be counterproductive to the cause of peace."

Councilwoman Dona Spring said the council should not be cowed by the volume of hate mail and threats.

"I still oppose the Marines recruiting in Berkeley because it's one way of protesting this wasteful war," she said. "Our military policy is a shambles. But we're not in opposition to the Marines, we oppose the policy that directs the Marines."

Meanwhile, the Code Pink protesters said they were disappointed that Berkeley might rescind its letter to the Marines.

"I hope they're not acting out of intimidation," said Code Pink spokeswoman Medea Benjamin. "Berkeley is a city of peace, and a recruiting station does not fit Berkeley's values."

Mayor Tom Bates, a former Army captain, said it probably wouldn't hurt if the council clarified its position.

"It's a symbol, but there are consequences to symbols," he said. "A lot of people think we're anti-Marine, but there's a difference between the warriors and the war. This an attempt to clarify that."

Nazgul
02-04-08, 11:46 PM
Council members Betty Olds and Laurie Capitelli proposed today that Berkeley rescind its letter to the U.S. Marine Corps that stated that the downtown Berkeley recruiting center "is not welcome in our city," and publicly declare that Berkeley is against the war but supports the troops.

Oh, OK.

MartinBlank
02-04-08, 11:57 PM
This would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. I guess when you actually have friends and family in the military perspectives are different....

<embed width="425" height="373" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GU2uCVSNJCU&rel=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed>

<embed width="425" height="373" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1V9pcN2-XSE&rel=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed>

<embed width="425" height="373" src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UPkk1OHaiWg&rel=1&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent"></embed>

Shitting on the military that allows them the right to verbalize every inane thought that enters their feeble, over-doped, under-nourished little brains. -ohbfrank-

What happens if a natural disaster were to ever hit Berkeley? Can't send the National Guard into help, they're part of the big-bad military industrial complex!!

We don't need a military, geez!! We'll be safe just because!!

Venusian
02-05-08, 07:14 AM
so these are just hippies from the '60s who want to relive their glory years?

Dr Mabuse
02-05-08, 08:26 AM
I can't understand the rationale behind a move like this. Do they think if they can stop recruiting, they can end our military, and therefore end all war resulting in some utopian peace? Just a weird, bad move.

it's called fools, no better word for it... a fool who is in any way self aware is on the path to some modicum of wisdom... therefore a fool is always lacking self awareness... and like a dog to it's vomit returns again and again to his/her foolishness...

in the ebb and flow of great civilizations this always happens... even in Medo Persia... or Rome... this always happens...

hard struggle to build a nation, empire, dynasty, etc. breeds strong, pragmatic, patriotic people... they appreciate what they have worked for, built, and fought and died for and are proud of it... the great men are the men who build the nation and military men who fight and die for it...

they provide such an iron clad curtain of military protection that in time generations of fools always come... fools who think about the world as a safe place filled with potential friends... lot's of 'peace' slogans... they resent the very military that has given them such a cotton candy life to become such a foolish idealist... they have not sacrificed for anything themselves, nor has anyone they've known... nor would they... all war, any war, is bad... the great people become those who don't serve in the military... they serve themselves mostly... or entertain...

that nation will fail because of this type... it's a cycle, and why all nations fail... what it takes to make a great nation falls away, and fools who can't sustain it are bred within...

i always think of John Stuart Mill's famous thought when this sort of thing comes up...

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill


the mind of the fool is so complete in Berkeley they have come to resent the BETTER men who made them, and keep them, free to be such useless fools...

kenbuzz
02-05-08, 10:24 AM
I recall all the anti-military posturing in the Bay Area back in the 90's, spearheaded by local US Congressman Rod Dellums (D-CA), who drafted base closure legislation that forced the DoD to go through several rounds of closures and realignments.

The DoD decided to close all of the bases in his district.

Linky: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978025-1,00.html
Cutting Close to Home
(Time Magazine - Monday, Mar 22 1993)

Ronald Dellums is not the sort of person the Pentagon would pick to be chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. Known for his radical politics that earned him the nickname "Berkeley Berzerkly," he has maintained a steadfastly anti-military posture during his 22 years as Congressman from Oakland, California. It was Dellums who consistently slashed away at Defense expenditures, voted to cut the number of B-2 bombers down to 20 when the Pentagon wanted 130, helped knock back the budget for the Strategic Defense Initiative and voted to trim U.S. military presence in Europe. His mantra: some of the billions spent on defense could be better spent elsewhere -- such as on the poor and the disadvantaged.

Last week the Defense Department struck back. Alameda County, which he represents, ranked No. 1 on the list of recommended military closings released by Defense Secretary Les Aspin last week. All five of the naval installations in Dellums' district will close, taking with them about 10,000 jobs and a $400 million payroll. The Alameda Naval Air Station, Alameda Naval Aviation Depot, Oakland Naval Hospital, the Oakland Naval Supply Center and the Naval Public Works Center in San Francisco are critical elements to the area's economy. The dense network of equipment and workers includes three nuclear-carrier berths, repair depots, a naval supply center for parts, a public works facility, motor pools and over 7,000 housing units.

The shutdowns in Alameda are part of what Aspin has called "the mother of all base closings," the most sweeping proposals since World War II, and they show how devastating the job loss can be. Nationwide, the closings include 31 major military installations as well as the curtailment of 134 others -- a plan that is eventually expected to save more than $3 billion a year. Most will occur in California, where three bases in addition to those in Alameda will close. The Pentagon says 16,000 military and 15,000 civilian jobs will be directly cut in the state, but California Governor Pete Wilson says the ripple effect will mean that more than 300,000 jobs will be lost -- a cruel blow to a state already suffering the worst unemployment in the nation.

Across the country, the closings will have both an economic and a psychological impact, especially in the short term as communities struggle to find ways to convert the properties to civilian use. Predictably, politicians from affected areas were quick to squawk. "It could bring economic devastation to the area," said Senator Ernest Hollings of South Carolina, which is scheduled to lose its Charleston Naval Station. But Congress has cleverly set up a system that allows the Pentagon to push through its closures while insulating legislators from much of the responsibility or political fallout. In 1990 it established an eight-member bipartisan commission to review Pentagon proposals. If the President approves the commission's recommendations, Congress must consider the package as a whole and can reject it only by a majority vote in both houses.

Dellums insists that in theory he's in favor of the process. "Twice before, in 1988 and 1991, I voted for closing bases," he says. "I helped draft the base-closure legislation we're working under. I've never approached this issue as a parochial or pork matter." But the Pentagon's new list, Dellums insists, smacks of political retribution rather than prudent pruning. "This is George Bush's base-closing list, and it's George Bush's base-closing commission," says an agitated Dellums, clearly distraught at the loss of jobs on his home turf. "If you think it's normal to include all five bases in my district, you're a hell of a lot more naive than I am."

Like other politicians whose districts are now threatened by Aspin's cuts, Dellums is mounting an effort to save his local bases. His argument: the Alameda installations, especially the nuclear-carrier berths, serve a specific purpose, and it would make no sense to close them if the military had to build new ones somewhere else to do similar work. The Pentagon analysis, Dellums says, "fails to take into consideration the synergism of having those bases clustered together."

Up until now, Dellums' military posture certainly hasn't hurt him in his district, which he last won by 72% of the vote. That is partly because he succeeded Aspin as Armed Services Committee chairman and voters believed he would be in a position to prevent any of the Pentagon's ire from hitting close to home. "He's always been antimilitary, but right now we're looking at him as one of our last hopes to save the installation," says Mark Hutchings, a fire inspector at the Mare Island Naval Complex shipyard in Vallejo.

There's no question Dellums and Alameda will be in for a struggle -- as will many other cities and towns across the country that have vowed to try to fight the base closings in their own backyards. Bases are rarely removed from a closing list. But the combative Dellums is not ready to surrender. Instead he is preparing to take his case to the nonpartisan commission. "My constituents have the right to expect every decision to be made in fairness," he says, "on solid economic grounds and with strategic considerations in mind. It seems to me my constituents are being penalized for my political principles, and that's unfair."Want to annoy a Liberal? Give them exactly what they want and let them learn their lesson the hard way.

mosquitobite
02-05-08, 10:54 AM
I recall all the anti-military posturing in the Bay Area back in the 90's, spearheaded by local US Congressman Rod Dellums (D-CA), who drafted base closure legislation that forced the DoD to go through several rounds of closures and realignments.

The DoD decided to close all of the bases in his district.

Linky: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978025-1,00.html
Want to annoy a Liberal? Give them exactly what they want and let them learn their lesson the hard way.

That is pretty damn funny! :lol:

The people choose Dellums as their representative, and he does the bidding of the people by slashing the Pentagon's budget and requests. So why wouldn't the Pentagon assume the people of Alameda simply don't want the military there?

Numanoid
02-05-08, 12:40 PM
Berkley's motto should be "I'm all for free speech...unless it contradicts my ideals."Well, you always have the option of wishing a terrorist attack on those you disagree with. -rolleyes-

bhk
02-05-08, 02:28 PM
I recall all the anti-military posturing in the Bay Area back in the 90's, spearheaded by local US Congressman Rod Dellums (D-CA), who drafted base closure legislation that forced the DoD to go through several rounds of closures and realignments.

The DoD decided to close all of the bases in his district.

Linky: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...78025-1,00.html
Want to annoy a Liberal? Give them exactly what they want and let them learn their lesson the hard way.

That's great. The only thing left to do is to drop flyers all over his district stating that he's the reason that the people there are losing their jobs.

Th0r S1mpson
02-05-08, 02:39 PM
I propose a scrimmage to settle this once and for all... Code Pink against the Marines. But no fair putting the women in.

crazyronin
02-05-08, 06:13 PM
Well, you always have the option of wishing a terrorist attack on those you disagree with. -rolleyes-

Making strawmen and knocking them down is teh fun:up:

MartinBlank
02-06-08, 12:44 AM
Well, you always have the option of wishing a terrorist attack on those you disagree with. -rolleyes-

If Berkeley feels the military is so fuckin' evil, then so be. They're on their own.

Sorraffy
02-07-08, 08:00 AM
<img src=http://www.zombietime.com/code_pink_vs_marines_10-7-2007/IMG_9351.JPG>

Interesting. Its difficult to read the black box in this pic, but does it say "Iraq US 1,001,9713,78 Dead"?

First, have over a billion people been killed in Iraq? Really? Wow. I never realized Iraq had more than a billion people, because certainly there must be another billion still alive there, as pics from Baghdad and the area show tons of people in the streets.

Also, I'm amused by the comma placement on this van too. We are dealing with geniuses.

ahhhhh these people are confusing!!!!!

Apparently you want the "troops home now" but just not in your home ... make up your minds!!!

VinVega
02-07-08, 09:14 AM
The Marines didn't declare war, the American government did. They're just doing the job the government asked them to do. I think someone needs to explain that distinction to the folks at Berkley. :down:

General Zod
02-07-08, 10:50 PM
Threaten to take away their funding and they aren't so tough..

http://www.nbc11.com/news/15245031/detail.html?dl=headlineclick

Berkeley Backs Off On Banning Marines

BERKELEY, Calif. -- As six Republican senators devised a plan to yank $2.3 million in federal funding for Berkeley programs, the mayor of the famously liberal city apologized Wednesday for his hard stance against a Marine recruiting center.

Two City Council members vowed to soften their stance as well.

At their Tuesday council meeting, leaders will discuss scrapping a letter that might be perceived as targeting the center or the Marines.

The letter said that the recruiting center was not welcome on Shattuck Avenue and that the Marines were uninvited and unwelcome intruders.

"That letter will probably be pulled back and maybe more moderate language will be put in place which is appropriate I think," said Berkeley mayor Tom Bates.

"Subtly stated in the resolution is perhaps an impugning of the soldiers fighting for us in Iraq and other places," Berkeley City Councilman Laurie Capitelli. "And that was never the intention but that really needs to be cleared up. As I walked to my car that night I realized I regretted it and I had made a mistake."

Bates said the city didn't mean to offend anyone in the armed forces and the focus should have been on the war not the troops.

"There's really no correlation between federal funds for schools, water ferries and police communications systems and the council's actions, for God's sake," said Bates, a retired U.S. Army captain. "We apologize for any offense to any families of anyone who may serve in Iraq. We want them to come home and be safe at home."

The letter was originally approved in January and has not been sent.

City officials said they got a flood of e-mails, many asking them to reconsider their position.

Councilmembers have said they would replace the "intruder item" with words expressing their support for the troops but not the war in Iraq.

The Republican plan would give the funds, intended for a school lunch program, UC Berkeley and ferry service, to the Marines instead.

"Patriotic American taxpayers won't sit quietly while Berkeley insults our brave Marines," said one of the senators.

The recruiting center opened about a year ago and quickly became a target of anti-war protesters including the group Code Pink.

Last week the council passed resolutions giving Code Pink a place to park out front. Some have said that meant the city giving was giving the group a place to continuously protest the Marines.

"What we're doing is we're announcing a bill that we intend to get on the floor to strip transportation from the city of Berkeley," said East Bay Republican Assemblyman Guy Houston. "What they have done in Berkeley is they have set aside a parking spot and in my opinion a public right of way, a public transportation corridor, specifically for a private organization -- in this case Code Pink -- to harass and annoy the United States Marine Corps and their recruiting efforts. We think that playing around and having an agenda with the public right of way is subject to ramifications. There is $2.3 million in proposition 1B transportation dollars. We think that should be in jeopardy."

Others on the Berkeley City Council seemed quite firm on their stance, NBC11's Christie Smith reported.

Sen. Barbara Boxer and Rep. Barbara Lee said they plan to fight the Republican bill.

Code Pink announced they would have what they called a "24-hour peace-in" leading up to Tuesday's city council meeting. They will be camping out but will have a lot of company. A group of pro-troop protesters will also be there.

"I was under the impression that we have the right of free speech," said Xanne Joi of Code Pink. "To me, I thought free speech meant you get to say what you want without recrimination."

Group members have made their organization infamous by intentionally getting arrested at protests and congressional hearings.

An Olive Branch

Berkeley City Councilman Gordon Wozniak extended an olive branch to the Marines. He went to breakfast with a recruiter Thursday morning.

"Berkeley is supposed to celebrate diversity and free speech and we welcome homeless people here. We welcome illegal immigrants. We give them sanctuary. We should welcome the Marines. I mean they're basically dedicating their lives to protect their country."

Wozniak said he does not support the harsh language of the letter to the Marines originally authorized by the city.

Ann Cooper with the Berkeley Unified School District wants both sides to play nice.

"Senators sitting 3,000 miles away are trying to take food away from the children of Berkeley," said Cooper. "Why? Because the Marines and the city aren't playing nice -- and that's just not OK."

I like that last line. The senators specifically mentioned it was TRANSPORTATION dollars they would withhold. Apparently people like this idiot cooper understand all of that about as much as they understand what the Marines do for this country.

DVD Polizei
02-07-08, 11:33 PM
Just thought I would point out:

Anderson, a former Marine who said he was "drummed out" of the corps when he took a stand against the Vietnam War, said he'd love to see the Marines high tale it out of town.

"We are confronted with an organization that can spend billions of dollars on propaganda," Anderson said. "This is not Okinawa here; we're involved in a naked act of aggression. If we can provide a space for ordinary people to express themselves against this kind of barbarity, then we should be doing it."

I'm not really your Berkely kinda dude, but this former Marine makes a good point. The US Gov't can spend billions of dollars on propaganda, recruiting young men and women for a high-risk of death which has yet to be determined is related to protecting this country, and yet Berkely can't express itself?

The Marines are tough. They should be able to respond without politicians pulling the financial strings.

General Zod
02-08-08, 12:02 AM
I doubt the Marines called in for any help. I think this was a group of Senators that saw a town basically treating the very same people that defend this entire country like dirt and decided to do something about it.

WCChiCubsFan
02-08-08, 12:19 AM
I like that last line. The senators specifically mentioned it was TRANSPORTATION dollars they would withhold. Apparently people like this idiot cooper understand all of that about as much as they understand what the Marines do for this country.Actually it is a very poorly written article in that there are two separate actions being taken.

The first is by the yahoo Republicans from Eastern states and that bill definitely will take away federal money for school lunch programs and amongst other things. That is what the last line is referring to so Cooper actually does know what he is talking about.

The second is a state bill sponsored by a state Politian Guy Houston. That one would withhold states funds that are earmarked for transportation.

On a side note, Houston is one of the biggest tools that I have ever known in politics. He wanted to run for Congress but he is like the Mississippi, a mile wide and an inch deep. He is so bad that the party told him in no uncertain terms that they would not support his run.


The second is a state bill

bhk
02-08-08, 11:00 AM
Anything that punishes the bezerks at Bezerkly is good.

wishbone
02-08-08, 12:49 PM
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/US/02/07/berkeley.protests/t1home.protesters.cnn.jpg
Sound familiar? ;)

http://kubrickfilms.warnerbros.com/images/Video_Detail_fmj_keyart.gif
"I wanted to see exotic Vietnam, the crown jewel of Southeast Asia.
I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture...
and kill them."
-- Joker from Full Metal Jacket

Nice that they subsituted exciting unusual people for stimulating people.

kvrdave
02-08-08, 03:02 PM
Why are people who prtest for peace so nasty. Doesn't seem like it would fit.

dick_grayson
02-08-08, 03:05 PM
Why are people who prtest for peace so nasty. Doesn't seem like it would fit.

some ---> all

MartinBlank
02-08-08, 03:08 PM
Why are people who prtest for peace so nasty. Doesn't seem like it would fit.

That's because the people they're dealing with are so friggin' stupid! Stupid warmongers!! You can't reason with stupid people, they just don't get it...they're just not enlightened enough...pass the bong, man! FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE!!!

bhk
02-09-08, 12:00 PM
dCXqYvJ0DaA&

The morons of the Bezerkly council and their moronic "advisors" advice and views that led to this action.

bhk
02-09-08, 12:03 PM
some ---> all

Some of them are stupid enough to publicly state what most of them seem to believe.

MartinBlank
02-09-08, 04:25 PM
dCXqYvJ0DaA&


Dirty hippies -ohbfrank-

bhk
02-10-08, 10:45 AM
http://www.nbc24.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=94192


Mayor kicks Marines out of Toledo
1-24th Marines were scheduled for weekend urban warfare training in downtown Toledo, when Carty gave them the boot

By Darsha Philips
Posted: Saturday, February 09, 2008 at 2:05 p.m.

TOLEDO, OH -- Mayor Carty Finkbeiner on Friday ordered some 200 members of Company A, 1st Battalion, 24th Marines from Grand Rapids, Michigan, out of Toledo just before the unit was supposed to start a weekend of urban warfare training downtown.

The mayor’s spokesperson, Brian Schwartz said, “The mayor asked them to leave because they frighten people. He did not want them practicing and drilling in a highly visible area."

Toledo police said they knew about the training and had approved the unit’s use of the Madison Building and the Promenade Park area. The training was scheduled to start Friday afternoon and last until Sunday. Police said the unit’s presence would have a minimal impact on the city. Police issued a press release earlier in the week saying the Marines would be wearing green camouflage uniforms, operate military vehicles, carry rifles, perform foot patrols, and fire blank ammunition during the exercise.

Schwartz said there was a breakdown in communication between police and the Finkbeiner administration that led to the mayor’s action.

“The Marines drilled here three times during the Ford administration and once under the Finkbeiner administration. After the last visit, the mayor told then police Chief Jack Smith, that he did not want the marines back. Smith failed to inform the current police administration of the mayor’s feelings,” Schwartz said.

NBC24 spoke to Jack Smith who recalled that after the Marines last visit, he and the mayor had a heated exchange about the training.

“He told me he did not want them, as he put it, 'playing war in Toledo,'" Smith recalled. "I told him, as a former Marine, that if one young Marine’s life is saved because of training he or she received in Toledo, Ohio, then it was worth the inconvenience.”

Smith said if the mayor objected, then he should have been the one to convey those feelings to police. Smith took his run-in with the mayor as an objection to that last visit and not future training in Toledo. As a result, the Toledo police went ahead, granting approval to the 1-24th Marines to conduct the routine exercise. The police notified members of the Finkbeiner administration who were not aware that the mayor objected to units training in Toledo.

When the mayor found out, he sent a member of his staff to tell Marines they could not conduct urban operations in Toledo. The unit was notified about 3:30 p.m. after an advance team arrived in Toledo. Five buses carrying some 200 Marines traveled four hours from Grand Rapids, only to find out the training had been shot down.

The unit briefly stopped at a 1-24th Marine base in Perrysburg Township, then returned to Grand Rapids where training was expected to be held this weekend. A spokesperson for the Marines said they were disappointed by the mayor’s decision especially after the city had been so helpful in the past.

Finkbeiner held a news conference Saturday night to address the growing controversy. Finkbeiner says bad planning and communication breakdowns led to his decision to bar a Marine Corps unit from training in downtown Toledo. Finkbeiner spent much of the twenty minute news conference explaining what he didn't know, and when he didn't know it.

“I don't know when we were first asked,” he says, “were we asked Tuesday or Wednesday of this week?”

Toledo Ohio catching Bezerkly's disease. This is actually worse than what Bezerkly did.

crazyronin
02-11-08, 08:20 PM
Let's trade Germany, straight up...Berkley for Landstuhl.


Monday, February 11, 2008
Landstuhl mayor shows city’s sights to wounded


By Steve Mraz, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Monday, February 11, 2008



Ben Bloker / S&S
Sgt. David Charley, left, and Pfc. Clarence Gregory, soldiers with the Army National Guard, take in the view from Landstuhl’s Burg Nanstein during a tour Friday.

LANDSTUHL, Germany — Landstuhl Mayor Klaus Grumer played host to wounded troops Friday at the city’s Rathaus and offered them a welcome, a history lesson, some humor and a beer stein.

Also during their tour of the city, the five wounded soldiers from Landstuhl Regional Medical Center’s medical transient detachment got a free guided tour of Burg Nanstein, an ancient castle overlooking the city.

The trip was the first to Landstuhl as part of the hospital’s spiritual fitness retreats for troops from downrange suffering from less-severe injuries.

Two or sometimes three times a week, the “walking wounded” can go on tours of nearby cities and sites.

On Friday, the mayor told the small group about Franz von Sickingen, a knight from Landstuhl who lived from 1481 to 1523.

Grumer said Sickingen died in a battle with the bishop of Trier, which is now a popular tourist attraction about 60 miles from Landstuhl. Apparently, some ribbing still goes on between the cities.

“Today, when we see a license plate with TR, which means they are from Trier, we are not very happy,” Grumer said. “Oh, this was a joke.”

Grumer took another stab at humor when he said maybe the wounded would get to visit Trier.

“Trier is the oldest city in Germany,” he said. “Just don't say you came from Landstuhl.”

Chief Warrant Officer 4 Bob Carella joined in on the joke after he thanked the mayor for his hospitality.

“When we go to Trier, we’ll be sure to let the air out of their tires and leave your name on their windshields,” Carella joked.

The mayor wished the troops full and speedy recoveries and ended the conversation by handing the wounded special Landstuhl beer steins.

“That was a treat,” said Pfc. Clarence Gregory, who is getting treatment for a possible detached retina. “I’m going to send it back home for my mom to drink coffee out of.”

After lunch at a restaurant near the castle, the troops were treated to a guided tour of Burg Nanstein, which dates back to around 1160.

A German-speaking guide told about the castle’s history and what life was like in those times while USO tour guide Christel Deitrick translated what he said into English.

Atop the castle, the troops soaked up expansive views of quaint villages and forested hillsides — a different landscape than they’re used to seeing in Iraq.
© 2007 Stars and Stripes. All Rights Reserved.

mikehunt
02-12-08, 09:23 PM
the military has their own bases, some with mock up cities, that they can do urban training in

Tuan Jim
02-13-08, 05:06 AM
the military has their own bases, some with mock up cities, that they can do urban training in

Not that many bases have decent MOUT facilities. It's probably even more difficult for reserve units to schedule training time on them due to deployments/manning issues - and the location of the units themselves. It's probably just me, but I can't think of any major army or marine facilities in the great lakes region. The closest ones likely to have any training facilities would probably be Drum, Leonard Wood or Riley (and marine bases are even further away) - not exactly convenient for a weekend of training drills.

johnglass
02-13-08, 10:25 AM
Berkeley Backs Down (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/13/BAM9V1H00.DTL)

(02-13) 01:33 PST Berkeley -- After a day of enraged confrontation outside Berkeley City Hall between anti-war and pro-military demonstrators, the City Council backed down early Wednesday from its controversial decision to tell the U.S. Marines they are "unwelcome intruders" for operating a downtown recruiting center.

Council members conceded that they had erred in passing a resolution Jan. 29 that condemned the Marines - rather than the war in Iraq - and some council members added that they felt they owed U.S. troops an apology as well the many Berkeley residents who were ashamed and offended by their position.

"To err is human but to really screw up it takes the Berkeley City Council," said council member Gordon Wozniak. "We failed our city. We embarrassed our city."

In the end, however, the council voted against issuing a public apology for its January action.

The officials said, however, that they strongly believe the Bush administration has used lies and deceit to lead the country into a war in which nearly 4,000 American troops have been killed. They also criticized the government for what they said was hiding the horrors of the war behind a "support our troops" mantra.

"We do not want to ostracize our troops," said council member Linda Maio. "They are our sons and our daughters. We care about them. We love them and we want to bring them home."

But Maio added, the war in Iraq is "badly thought out" and she does not support the government's recruiting efforts for this war.

The backdown became apparent late Tuesday night when Mayor Tom Bates and three council members aligned themselves with the two who called on the council last week to rethink its position. The January decision created a firestorm of criticism across the nation from people who called the council's position on the Marines harsh and inappropriate. Others cheered the council as courageous.

Berkeley's critics included six Republican U.S. senators who have vowed to cut federal funding for several Berkeley programs, such as the Chez Panisse Foundation, which provides school lunches at Berkeley's public schools, and the Robert Matsui Center for Politics and Public Service at UC Berkeley.

Council members maintained that they were not caving in to pressure from right-wing bloggers or radio-show hosts in backing away from their January vote.

Protesters began gathering as early as Monday night outside City Hall in anticipation of the Tuesday night meeting. By Tuesday morning, some confrontations had become physical, and police in riot gear moved in to separate the groups. At its peak, 2,000 protesters had gathered outside City Hall, police said.

Three protesters were arrested for minor scuffles with other demonstrators - and a fourth for allegedly slapping a police officer - in what was one of the largest demonstrations in the city in years.

Tuesday evening, many demonstrators squeezed into the council chambers - some telling the council to stand firm, others urging the council to apologize for insulting the military and the men and women who are serving their country. The council allowed public testimony to continue into the early morning Wednesday before making a decision.

"Berkeley doesn't speak for America," said Eve Tidwell of Columbus, Ga., who flew into the Bay Area on Tuesday after watching news accounts of the uproar over the Marines in Berkeley. "If terror came to Berkeley, the Marines would come to protect the people here."

Tidwell, whose son-in-law is in the Navy, wanted the council to rescind its objection to the Marines and the recruiting office they opened on Shattuck Square a year ago. She encouraged others to boycott Berkeley businesses until the council backed down.

But Susan Killebrew, a Berkeley mother who brought her twin 7-year-old daughters, Aria and Sophia, to the demonstration, said she wanted the city to stand firm against the war and the recruiting center.

"We might have to suffer (negative publicity) as a result of it," she said before the meeting Tuesday, "but not as much as the children in Iraq who are traumatized by the constant military presence there. My heart is broken by this war. I marched against it before the invasion. It makes me sad that so many have died."

Council members Betty Olds and Laurie Capitelli called last week for the council to retreat from its position on the Marines and instead make clear that while the city opposes the war, it supports the troops.

Olds and Capitelli opposed the council's resolution, passed by a 6-3 vote, to send the objection letter to the Marines. The city manager had not yet prepared the letter and was awaiting the results of Tuesday's council meeting.

As the meeting got under way, three other council members, Max Anderson, Linda Maio and Darrell Moore, and the mayor offered yet another resolution that was similar to the Olds-Capitelli one, rescinding the letter and supporting the troops.

During the meeting, protesters could still be heard shouting outside Maudelle Shirek City Hall. They had spent the day yelling, singing, chanting and flag-waving along Martin Luther King Jr. Way. At times, the arguments grew intense, as protesters stood face-to-face screaming obscenities at one another.

A 49-year-old man from Rocklin (Placer County) and two Berkeley teenagers were arrested in separate scuffles, police said. About 1 p.m., a man supporting the Marines ventured into an encampment by the anti-war group Code Pink and drew a knife. Police arrested Keith Donald Salvatore for brandishing the weapon. He told police he had taken out the knife in self-defense after war protesters wrapped him in a pink banner, said Sgt. Mary Kusmiss, a police spokeswoman.

Police arrested the teenagers, boys ages 13 and 15, for scuffling with Marines supporters.

At around 4 p.m., police arrested Luisa Romero De Los Angeles, an 18-year-old Berkeley resident who they say slapped a police officer who told her to back away as she demanded they release the two boys who had been arrested earlier.

Code Pink activists said that even with the council backing off, they intend to place a resolution on the local ballot to oust the recruiters.

"We want voters to be able to decide ... just like they have a say whether a liquor store or porn shop opens near a school," said Jodie Evans, a Berkeley yoga studio owner who co-founded Code Pink.

Evans, wearing a pink crown that said "I Miss America," sat on a lawn chair outside of City Hall in the chilly night air listening to testimony from the meeting inside, which was being broadcast to the hundreds who couldn't fit inside the building.

Iraq war veteran Javier Tenorio of Berkeley was also listening outside of City Hall. The former Army infantryman who served two tours of duty called the ballot proposal "ridiculous."

"Even if they achieve it, it's going to be voted down," Tenorio said. "There are enough people in Berkeley who support the military, including university Republicans. We're going to beat this."

bhk
02-13-08, 02:26 PM
Nothing like the threat of withholding American money to make America-hating morons see the light. :rolleyes:

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 02:45 PM
Shit, MT was threated with losing federal funds when we didn't have a speed limit a decade ago :lol:

kvrdave
02-13-08, 02:52 PM
I don't understand how any city, county, or state government thinks their time is well spent passing resolutions about national affairs.

My school board has received pressure on occasion to do this sort of thing (but not onthe war) and I have refused every time. If you want change, talk to those policy makers, not to your city counsel, etc.

It is people who want a lot of power but are generally looney enough that they couldn't ever get elected to anything outside their sphere of loons.

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 02:56 PM
I don't understand how any city, county, or state government thinks their time is well spent passing resolutions about national affairs.

It's not about the actual results, it's about the intentions...intentions and feeling good.

My City Commission passed a "get us outta Iraq" resolution a month back, as you can see it worked out pretty well :rolleyes:

adamblast
02-13-08, 02:57 PM
Any time the military is thrown out of somewhere I cheer. I don't hate military people, of course. I may hate the sin, but I love the sinner.

However, I *AM* all about disrespecting institutions that fight tooth and nail for their "right" to treat me as inferior.

All that said, dave's point is well taken. City councils who try to meddle in nationial politics need a swift kick in the ass. Being in opposition to a local recruiting center is not strictly national politics, of course.

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 02:57 PM
That, and people honestly think that they are a lot smarter than Bush and his administration..."If only he'd read our resolution!! Then he'd see the light!!! Don't boggard that can, man!!!"

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 02:59 PM
Any time the military is thrown out of somewhere I cheer. I don't hate military people, of course. I may hate the sin, but I love the sinner.

You cheer? Why?

bhk
02-13-08, 03:00 PM
You cheer? Why?

Probably because the military doesn't endorse homosexual marriage.

adamblast
02-13-08, 03:09 PM
Probably because the military doesn't endorse homosexual marriage.Cute, but of course wrong and hardly the point. It's the things they *DO* endorse.

Like prohibiting gays from openly serving, and tossing them out with dishonorable discharges whenever they're discovered regardless of their service.

In other words, they're still fighting tooth and nail to prohibit our full citizenship.

adamblast
02-13-08, 03:11 PM
You cheer? Why?I thought the sentence that directly followed made it perfectly clear. You can't expect me to cheer an institution devoted to enshrining my second-class legal status. In fact, you can expect me to cheer when they are defeated.

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 03:12 PM
In other words, they're still fighting tooth and nail to prohibit our full citizenship.

You'd like John McCain, he supports amnesty :p

bhk
02-13-08, 03:13 PM
:lol:
I knew it had to do with them not declaring that homosexuality is normal, nay preferable.

MartinBlank
02-13-08, 03:14 PM
In fact, you can expect me to cheer when they are defeated.

Wow. Um...you do realize that if they're ever actually "defeated" you're gonna have a lot more to worry about that feeling like a "second class citizen", right?

I'm referring the military as a whole, not just an isolated incident with a bunch of stupid hippies in Ca.

adamblast
02-13-08, 03:17 PM
Wow. Um...you do realize that if they're ever actually "defeated" you're gonna have a lot more to worry about that feeling like a "second class citizen", right?I meant defeated in terms of domestic politics. I would have been proud to fight to defend our country, personally. Never got the chance, of course.

adamblast
02-13-08, 03:19 PM
:lol:
I knew it had to do with them not declaring that homosexuality is normal, nay preferable.I've never considered being gay preferable, nor have I ever implied they should be treated so. And I don't care if people consider us normal. I care whether or not they legally penalize us for being gay.

But please, continue your attempts to marginalize us with any cheap shots you can think of. They kinda prove my point.

adamblast
02-13-08, 03:21 PM
You'd like John McCain, he supports amnesty :p
As a rural Southern Californian, I sure don't! ;)

bhk
02-13-08, 03:36 PM
I care whether or not they legally penalize us for being gay.
If you don't advertise it, they don't care. What you want is not acceptance but endorsement.

But please, continue your attempts to marginalize us with any cheap shots you can think of. They kinda prove my point.
I don't need to marginalize you, you are marginalizing yourself quite well without my help when you make statements like this: "Any time the military is thrown out of somewhere I cheer."

Artman
02-13-08, 03:37 PM
For the record, I am against don't ask don't tell.

It's so painfully obvious the difference in caliber (and education) of people for and against the marines. The loons sound just like that... loons. I'm sure if there's video they would look just as silly as they sounded. Oh wait, there is...

adamblast
02-13-08, 04:02 PM
If you don't advertise it, they don't care. What you want is not acceptance but endorsement.Completely wrong. You don't need to advertise it, only be "found out". Anyone can rat on you and they'll toss you.

DADT has always been little more than a euphemism for the status quo. To serve safely and legally, you must be 100% completely in the closet. They actually *require* dishonesty and breaking the honor code.

Then they say you're a security risk because you can be blackmailed--thanks to their own policies.

bhk
02-13-08, 04:39 PM
You don't need to advertise it, only be "found out". Anyone can rat on you and they'll toss you.
How does one get "found out"?

adamblast
02-13-08, 05:20 PM
How does one get "found out"?By not lying suffiently, or sufficiently well? A momentary lapse of pronouns? Do you realize how difficult it would be to hide that you're heterosexual for years at a stretch, and possibly a lifetime? To have no one discover that you prefer women?

bhk
02-13-08, 05:32 PM
By not lying suffiently, or sufficiently well? A momentary lapse of pronouns?
I was getting at what behavior is it that causes people to find out? And is that behavior amenable to control or not?

Do you realize how difficult it would be to hide that you're heterosexual for years at a stretch, and possibly a lifetime? To have no one discover that you prefer women?
There are some things essential things about me that my friends and co-workers have no idea about. It isn't that hard(unless that is all that is thought about 24/7)

mosquitobite
02-13-08, 06:25 PM
Can we get back on track for this thread? :)

I heard one of the council women on Medved tonight. I felt she voiced their thoughts pretty well on WHY they did it, and heck I believe they have a right to voice their opinions.

Of course, when the city decides to act on those opinions in a matter which will make it hard to defend them in the future, I can't support them. They want the protection the Marines offer, but don't want them recruiting for the illegal war. :lol:

Medved cornered her when he asked, "so last night's council meeting, what was decided?"

She replied "we decided to rewrite the letter to make it clearer we support the troops, but not the recruiting office."

Medved "so you still want them out of Berkeley?"

Councilwoman "yes, the recruiters, not the troops"

Medved "so what changed?"

Councilwoman "ummm...." :lol:

Artman
02-13-08, 06:36 PM
Oh she was hilarious, I was listening too! Some pretty funny calls.

mosquitobite
02-13-08, 07:16 PM
Oh she was hilarious, I was listening too! Some pretty funny calls.
When she cussed on air (bleeped out) I laughed my ass off.

She said "I'm sorry. I got a little excited."
Medved "yes, please try not to get so excited."

:lol:

bhk
02-13-08, 07:37 PM
When she cussed on air (bleeped out) I laughed my ass off.

She said "I'm sorry. I got a little excited."
Medved "yes, please try not to get so excited."

:lol:

:lol:
That's great.

kvrdave
02-13-08, 08:37 PM
For the record, I am against don't ask don't tell.

It's so painfully obvious the difference in caliber (and education) of people for and against the marines. The loons sound just like that... loons. I'm sure if there's video they would look just as silly as they sounded. Oh wait, there is...

I am not posting to disagree with you, just to point out the irony that the policy puts a blanket over all gay people as unfit to serve, just like how you put a blanket on all people who believe one way or the other. :lol:

My guess, and that is all it is because I don't care enough to follow it, is that there are some very bright people who like the policy because they want their army to have the fewest distractions possible so that the guys can kill people. I'm not saying that is correct, because I don't know, but I doubt the lumping together of "pro" and "con" comes from an unbiased observation on your part.

But that's okay too, because kvrdave has enough unbaisedness...ocity for all of us. :) Including you.

Tuan Jim
02-16-08, 01:14 AM
To be honest, although I agree with DADT in principle as a soldier (the same way I think it's right that someone should be punished for adultery under UCMJ or other sexual offenses - and believe me, where I am right now, they're cracking down on everything -- and when I say "punished" for DADT - I mean for actual acts, not for being yourself), I can confidently say that it's not applied uniformly across the board, if at all in some cases. A lot of it is left up to the discretion of the individual commanders/units - regardless of whether it's right or wrong - the same way other disciplinary acts are handled (often based on previous patterns of activity/prior history, etc). It's definitely not just a he said/he said thing - at least with the units I've served in.

For example, look at the one guy (only seen him in articles) who was on 60 minutes talking about being out of the closet or whatnot - they haven't taken any action against him.


BTW, zombie updated with some shots from the Feb 12 protest/counter-protest in Berkeley. http://www.zombietime.com/berkeley_marines_2-12-2008/


And before someone rips everything else I've already said for inconsistency, I also think premarital sex is wrong. It's just a personal conviction.

MovieExchange
02-20-08, 02:21 PM
DADT is there because so many straight solders are ignorant rednecks that believe every one of those dirty homosexuals are out to assrape them at the first dropped bar of soap, and thus have a tendency to act aggressively and maybe even violently against a homosexual.

It reminds me of when I got into a discussion with someone that was against couples of differing races. Their argument was "well think of all the harassment a mixed child will go through!" My response was "you mean dealing with ignorant bigots like you?"

Let's try and educate the ignorant instead of punishing the innocent... oh wait, that's the solution that will work but would require more effort - definitely not the American way of doing things.

kvrdave
02-20-08, 02:35 PM
While probably not dirty, Tracer Bullet does want to assrape me at the first dropped bar of soap, so it isn't unheard of. Hell, I can't blame him, so it has never really affected our friendship. :shrug:

bhk
02-27-08, 02:36 PM
http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/ci_8377099


Merchants feeling pinch from Berkeley protests
Business owners bemoan effects of Berkeley anti-war demonstrations
By Kristin Bender and Doug Oakley, STAFF WRITERS
Article Created: 02/27/2008 02:43:07 AM PST

BERKELEY — People who are angry at city leaders for their anti-military stance are taking it out on businesses — canceling hotel rooms, restaurant reservations and theater tickets.
They are writing letters to the Berkeley Chamber of Commerce outlining their plans to boycott the city.

And they are steering clear of downtown shops because of the weekly anti-war protests that in recent weeks have become increasingly volatile.

Two weeks after the Berkeley City Council refused to apologize to the Marine Corps for calling them "uninvited and unwelcome intruders," Berkeley businesses said they are feeling the backlash from people who don't want to spend their money in the city.

"We're hearing of folks canceling reservations and canceling hotel rooms, and we know there is a direct correlation. How big, I don't know. We're in a tough economic period anyway," said Ted Garrett, chief executive officer of the chamber.

Garrett said the chamber has received an estimated 300 e-mails, letters and faxes from people upset about the council's action and its refusal to apologize.

"Folks are upset," he said. "Unfortunately, they are blaming the businesses."

Mo Hallaji, owner of Pollo's at Shattuck Avenue and Addison Street, said his business has declined 10 percent to 15 percent this month because of the traffic jams and fighting associated with the protests.

"They are killing our business," Hallaji said. "Everybody is against the war,
but that is not the right way to go about it if you want to accomplishsomething."
Quentin Moore, owner of Berkeley Hardware on University Avenue, is not far from the Marines' recruitment center at 64 Shattuck Square, and the protests might be causing a downturn in his business, he said.

"I see maybe two or three customers in here and maybe (the protests) are the reason," he said.

Anti-war group CodePink, which held another rally Tuesday, has been holding protests since last fall, while the group The World Can't Wait got involved recently. The demonstrations are becoming increasingly volatile: Police have arrested five people recently, including two last week.

Also last week, protesters violated their city permit by moving away from the recruitment center and yelling through a megaphone.

"The downtown is like a full-time circus right now. There isn't a day when we're not hearing the drums and the noise (from the various groups). I think it's off-putting," said Susie Medak, managing director of the Berkeley Repertory Theatre.

CodePink leaders, who went door-to-door Tuesday, passing out sandwiches and pink window signs reading, "Another Berkeley Business for Peace," disputed the notion that the protests are negatively affecting downtown businesses.

"If they want to blame the downturn in the economy on a protest against the Marines, it's a pretty bad excuse," said CodePink co-founder Medea Benjamin.

City Councilmember Dona Spring also said she doesn't view the protests as a problem. She said only the businesses on the same block as the demonstrations are being affected.

"Every anti-war group in the East Bay wants to come and protest. This is where the action is," she said.

On Jan. 29, the Berkeley City Council agreed to send a letter to the U.S. Marines, calling them "uninvited and unwelcome intruders." At the same time, the council also approved a fee-waiver for a parking space and event permit for CodePink's weekly protests.

Many were angered by the move that they viewed as anti-military and anti-American. An estimated 30,000 e-mails were sent to City Hall, condemning the council's move.

On Feb. 12, anti-war groups were confronted by hundreds of military supporters, veterans and parents of soldiers, who rallied in front of Old City Hall in the hours leading up to a City Council meeting. The meeting was scheduled to reexamine the city's original anti-Marines stance.

In the early hours of the next morning — and after more than 125 people spoke on both sides of the issue — the council voted 7-2 not to send the letter to the Marines. The council also refused to apologize, and outlined its support for those protesting the presence of the Marines' recruitment center.

Garrett said merchants are being punished for the council's actions.

"(We) strongly encourage the City Council to offer a public apology to our community and the countless others who were offended by their actions — folks who roll up their sleeves every day and work hard to serve their country and their community," he wrote in a recent letter.

Deborah Badhia, executive director of the Downtown Business Association, said the fall-out and the protests have been a "hardship" on businesses.

"In spite of any political issues that are going on, we still want the public to know that they are welcome and invited in Berkeley," she said.


Contact Kristin Bender at [email protected] or 510-208-6453. Contact Doug Oakley at [email protected]

Lesson #1: Actions have consequences. More lessons to follow.

Venusian
03-06-08, 08:49 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_re_us/times_square_shutdown

someone bombs the recruiting center in times square?

JasonF
03-06-08, 09:37 AM
Good news that nobody was hurt. I hope they catch whoever is responsible and lock him (them) in a tiny little cell for the rest of their lives.

Tracer Bullet
03-06-08, 09:44 AM
They're reporting that this bombing is very similiar to bombings of consulates in 2005 and 2007. In the 2007 bombing, a man in a gray hooded sweatshirt was also seen fleeing on a bicycle.

dork
03-06-08, 10:11 AM
on a bicycle
I knew it! This is why you have to run them over while there's still time, people!

The Bus
03-06-08, 10:25 AM
They're reporting that this bombing is very similiar to bombings of consulates in 2005 and 2007. In the 2007 bombing, a man in a gray hooded sweatshirt was also seen fleeing on a bicycle.

Great. More ammo for DVD Polizei.

Tracer Bullet
03-06-08, 10:29 AM
While probably not dirty, Tracer Bullet does want to assrape me at the first dropped bar of soap, so it isn't unheard of. Hell, I can't blame him, so it has never really affected our friendship. :shrug:

You know, it's not nice to post our personal conversations, especially when I haven't been following this thread.

bhk
03-06-08, 02:18 PM
I would rather that whoever did this shot himself multiple times in the head trying to escape the police than us catch him and him spend the rest of his life with 3 hot meals and free cable TV and a type of health club membership.

MartinBlank
03-06-08, 06:14 PM
"In the criminal justice system the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important groups: the police, who investigate crime and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories."

*DONG* *DONG*

It's nothng new for the right to CAUSE or (6+ / 0-)

INCITE the violence, or to trigger arranged mob responses, and make sure it all gets pinned on the Left. And the right seems to be able to get the FBI and law enforcement to do this for them as well. Anarchy, chaos, property damage, physical harm, mayhem, murder, militarized police with massive crowd control equipment, are all 'options' the right are eager to use to shut down any potentially energizing movement.

Remember elections night Florida and Gore, Florida and Bush? The GOP protesters and rioters? The right has a number capable of thuggish actions for the cause, and not just in the South. The macho types love 'missions' to 'penetrate' liberal organizations and movements, and press the case for 'real action' and press for the moves toward violence which typically invalidates legitimacy in the minds of the moderate public and media framing anticipates this.

We can expect determined and destabilizing actions, on many fronts, to try and break down all the good energy and work that came together around candidates like John Edwards and now Obama. Even Hillary may be the target of vast right wing conspiracies, 1. to get her set up as the right's candidate of choice, and 2. blame all evil since 2006, or 1992, on her. We have just managed to form a significant enough threat to the right. They have been waiting for this and are eager to discredit it, block it, shut it down, break it, and create mass distrust of it, to frame it for the murder, corruption, violence and mayhem they cause on your behalf. You thought you were just joining a political trend or movement. You may not have imagined you are targeted, exposed and will need to be willing to fight smart, to resist impulsive urges to lash out, and to maintain focus and hope:D, and grow the power to make change:D happen.

When life gives you wingnuts, make wingnut butter!

by antirove on Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 05:26:27 AM PST
Link (http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2008/3/6/73057/39935/18#c18)

*phew* I'm glad somebody's on the case. If you care, there's 108 responses to this Woodward and Bernstein-esque journalism :rolleyes:

MartinBlank
03-06-08, 09:48 PM
Surveillance video...

<object width="380" height="313"><param name="FlashVars" value="apiHost=api.sevenload.com"/><param name="AllowScriptAccess" value="always"/><param name="movie" value="http://en.sevenload.com/pl/Z6qjVXw/380x313/swf" /><embed src="http://en.sevenload.com/pl/Z6qjVXw/380x313/swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="380" height="313" allowfullscreen="true" AllowScriptAccess="always" FlashVars="apiHost=api.sevenload.com"></embed></object><br />Link: <a href="http://en.sevenload.com/videos/Z6qjVXw/tsquare">sevenload.com</a>

MartinBlank
03-06-08, 09:53 PM
'We Did It' letters eyed in NY bombing

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer 1 minute ago

Capitol Hill offices received letters Thursday containing a photo of the Times Square military recruiting office before it was bombed and including the claim "We Did It."

The manila envelopes contained a photo of a man standing in front of the recruiting station before it was bombed. The photo was the kind commonly sent as a holiday greeting card, according to a Democratic aide who spoke on condition of anonymity because the matter is under investigation.

The message on the card: "Happy New Year, We Did It."

The envelope also contained a packet of approximately 10 sheets of paper that seemed to be a political manifesto railing against the Iraq war and a booklet. The aide didn't know what the booklet was. A second aide, who also spoke on condition of anonymity, said similar letters arrived in as many as 10 offices.

Capitol Police, FBI and U.S. Postal Inspection Service were investigating. In an e-mail to lawmakers, Capitol Police said the envelopes went through the standard security process. That process, which involves radiating incoming mail, can easily take a week or more, making it likely the letters were mailed well ahead of the bombing.

The small bomb caused minor damage to the New York military recruiting station before dawn Thursday and police were searching for a hooded bicyclist seen on a surveillance video pedaling away.

Each envelope was stamped with two $1 stamps and contained a white label with a return address, which the police did not identify in the e-mail. Police said the letters were safe and did not contain threats to lawmakers.

The man in the photo was thin, white with graying hair, wearing a striped flannel shirt and jeans, the Democratic aide said. A law enforcement official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the case is ongoing, confirmed some of the contents of the letters as described by the aide.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of an e-mail sent from the office of Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., to other lawmakers Thursday that reads:

"A few offices on the House side have received a letter today addressed to 'Members of Congress' with a picture of a man standing in front of the Times Square recruiting station that was bombed in New York today with the statement 'We did it.' He is standing in front of it with his arms spread out and he's attached his political manifesto."

The blast left a gaping hole in the front window and shattered a glass door, twisting and blackening its metal frame. No one was hurt, but Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said the device, though unsophisticated, could have caused "injury and even death."
Source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080307/ap_on_go_co/times_square_blast_letters)

Anti-war rhetoric!?! No way!!! Who'd have thunk it?!?! :rolleyes:

DeputyDave
03-07-08, 12:58 AM
I'm guessing PETA was behind this.

MartinBlank
03-24-08, 11:42 PM
<embed FlashVars="videoId=163653" src='http://www.thedailyshow.com/sitewide/video_player/view/default/swf.jhtml' quality='high' bgcolor='#cccccc' width='332' height='316' name='comedy_central_player' align='middle' allowScriptAccess='always' allownetworking='external' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' pluginspage='http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer'></embed>

rotfl


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