movielib

Showtime, 9:00pm.

Contrary to some, I think this season has been decent, if not one of their best. I've liked Wal-Mart (top episode so far this season and ranks with the better ones from any season), Detoxing and Immigration. This one looks interesting and anyone who bashes the ADA can't be all bad. Plus my wife has a handicapped parking permit (which she doesn't like to use unless she's feeling really terrible) so that should add a little fun for us.

Next week: Mount Rushmore

darkside

Ugh. Seriously? Fucking handicaped parking. The local news busts people scamming this system all the time and everyone understands how fucked the ADA can be for a business. I don't need an episode on it. Mount Rushmore the next week?

This show is a waste. I'm just glad they stopped dicking around with religion, fake medical quacks and fake psychics so they could cover the important topics like Mount Rushmore.

I will agree the Wal-Mart episode was decent, but still doesn't compare to most of the episodes from season 1 and 2.

Red Dog

There is certainly plenty to bash about the ADA. Could be a very good topic.

Wazootyman

Didn't do much for me. I would have liked to see more from the 3 fingered guy, because he presented a unique angle.

The part with the iron lung was incredibly stupid, even Penn himself said only three dozen people still used the lung. I realize he was making an obtuse point and saying that if you accommodate one you should accommodate all, but that became deluded in the idiocy of the act.

movielib

I agree that the iron lung was stupid. They could have made the point that no law can anticipate every situation without that silly time wasting gimmick.

The rest of the program, however, I think was solid. I, too, thought the best part was the three fingered guy. I think he was given sufficient time to make his points.

Whatever one thinks about the season or whether or not they agree with P&T, I think one has to admire the fact they they have taken unpopular positions on three very volatile and emotional issues this season. I also think those are the three best episodes of the season so far.

kvrdave

Yeah, I don't think I needed a show to tell me how stupid it is. I own a building that is leased to the state for the DMV. I had to put braille signs on the bathroom.

DodgingCars

I didn't watch the episode, but I can say that with 2 nephews with MD, I'm sure my sister is glad there is Handicap parking. Not for closer parking, which she doesn't use (they have electric wheelchairs), but for the loading space to get the wheelchairs and her kids in and out of the van.

I know how terrible it must be for you Dave that you had to put up some signs, those damned blind people have it all!

das Monkey

Considering his base position was essentially, "Don't ever help people with anything or they'll never learn to help themselves", I'm glad they didn't spend any more time with him. While I agree that there are many circumstances where helping ourselves is beneficial, and I'm happy for him that he's done well with his life, the way he presented it as a broad and general philosophy for everyone was really self-centered.

Anyway, I thought the episode pretty much sucked, and I don't have much of an opinion on the topic either way. It sucked because it was all over the map. There was no cohesive argument other than Penn & Teller's generic Libertarian belief that government should stay out of our business. But that can apply to a thousand topics. Outside of some ADA bashing (which seemed reasonable), they didn't make much of a point. While it's good to say, "Just be nice to people", someone has to paint the handicapped parking spaces or the rest of us won't know where to park to be considerate. If they don't want it to be the government, fine, but I'm sure business owners wouldn't mind a set of instructions that tells them what specifications will actually be useful to their handicapped customers. And as a considerate driver, I'd like some level of assurance that if I park further away, the next guy isn't going to undo my effort and park in the spot I just left open. Perhaps I do have a bit of an opinion on this.

Oh, and the drive-up ATM thing was really stupid. Them newfangled automobiles have back seats now. What's next for P&T? Why are they called apartments when they're already together? Why is it called a building when it's already been built? If you want to question braille on ATMs, question why they don't have audio instructions, drive-up or not, so the user knows when to press buttons.

das

OldDude

Evidently, if they are at the DMV renewing their drivers licenses.

kvrdave

I think you missed the irony, and the point of the show.

Deftones

Well, to be fair, what if someone that needs to get their DL has their elderly, blind relative with them.

A more ironic situation is when there is braille on the drive up ATMs. That's scary.

Red Dog

I agree. 50 million qualifying under the ADA is such a joke, but that's what you get when you let government drive this kind of policy. I had no idea about the doorknobs and now that I think about it, those are the kinds of handles I see everywhere (offices, bathrooms, hotel rooms, government buildings, my apartment (inside and outside).

I've see that CFR 100-page ADA regs and it is completely insane. I'm sure a charitable organization supporting the handicapped could put out a suggested set of standard dimensions/measurements that could help guide private businesses. That would be preferable to government-forced regs/compliance.

Many businesses would care w/o government force. Hell, the local grocery store has spots reserved for expecting mothers and county police officers.

Match

I was hoping Penn and Teller would discuss this on their show about Handicap Parking:
Why does obese americans get handicap plates?

das Monkey

Yeah, that was pretty staggering. I frequently see people legally abusing the benefits when it's clear that they don't require them, but I always thought it was just a few isolated douchebags. I didn't realize it was likely 10% of the country.

Would disability be a protected class without the ADA?

das

darkside

Mediocre program once again, but it did have some important things. When they mentioned the ADA has done nothing to increase job opportunities they hit on the most important detail of the episode and spent about 30 seconds on the topic. I'll dish a little truth here and probably be hated for it.

I work for a pretty large company and I can tell you straight out that we do everything possible not to hire anyone with any kind of major disability. This is against everything we train on in ethics and the official company policies. However, when its down to just the main few in charge of the department it has become silently understood the past few years that we want to avoid them if possible.

For the main manager responsible for the budget it can be very expensive. Requests made by an employee to accommodate a disability can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars for special equipment, chairs or modifications to the facility. This is with no guarantee that the employee will be fully satisfied and continue employment.

For the lower supervisors it is also stressful. From experience people with disabilities miss a lot more work and because of the ADA can't be penalized for it in most cases. You also run into many that milk these situations as much as possible which adds a ton of stress to your job when you are trying to meet deadlines. You may have 25 people in your department, but you end up spending most of your time and energy on that one person with the disability, especially if that person wants to pull the "I'm disabled card" every time there is an issue with work or coworkers. It is typically issues with coworkers for some reason.

Again, I know not everyone with a disability is like this (most probably aren't, we had some bad experiences though), but my point is you don't want to take the chance because terminating them later can be very difficult. FYI, we are also unofficially very, very reluctant to hire people under 22 or over 60. Believe it or not though I will take the 61 year old over the 21 year old every time.

Red Dog

Yep - one of the unintended consequences of the ADA. It creates a strong incentive to discriminate against the disabled.

kvrdave

If the state believes it is that important, they can do it. Here is how they really think....they wanted me to install an automatic door. The cost was around $15k and I refused. I offered to put in a door bell that could be rang if someone needed help. They told me that the doorbell would probably be a bad idea. I told them that a doorbell is exactly what city hall has on it....the mayor is in a wheelchair. They opted to have nothing done.

DodgingCars

I'm pretty sure blind people go to the DMV...

DodgingCars

For everyone that criticizes the ADA, I think it'd be far worst without it. My nephews have definately benefited from it... such as having people help them take notes in school because they couldn't write (or write fast enough to take notes), having higher desks so their wheelchairs could fit underneath them, having a "shadow" to help the at school, etc.

I'd hate to see what it'd be like without federal protection for their rights.

Red Dog

A school is a government building (I assume you are talking about a public school), so I would agree that these are things that government should be doing. I have no problem with government mandating handicapped accessible gov't buidlings.

The problem with the ADA comes when you have government regulation of private entities.

Brooklyn

Here in MA the blind still need to go to the DMV to get their state IDs.

Deftones

I guess, I'm jaded in that fact that I've got a parapalegic aunt that I've seen struggle with finding parking. I will agree that the ADA gives far too many placards for people. I've seen perfectly normal people walking away from a car that has handicap plates. To me, it should be only physical handicaps that the ADA recognizes for them.

The one book writer guy confuses me. While I can understand his frustration about people getting government handouts when they probably shouldn't under ADA, why is he so pissed? He maintains that people with disabilities were hired in greater numbers before the ADA, but he provides no documentation of that.

movielib

I need to take a little issue with this. People who appear "perfectly normal" may very well not be. My wife has fibromyalgia and suffers a lot of pain but the levels are inconsistent. She has a handicapped permit. She does not use it unless she has to and usually not unless there are other handicapped spaces open as she knows others are in worse shape than she is. But I wonder how often when she does use it that people are cursing to themselves that "she looks perfectly normal."

Brooklyn

Very true. Not all handicaps are immediately noticeable. My wife is legally
blind but you'd never know it by watching her get out of a car. That said,
I do also think they give out permits to those that don't need/deserve them.

Jason

Um, you do know that drive-up ATMs just use the same machines they use everywhere else, but if you think blind people shouldn't be allowed to get their money just so you won't be freaked out at the drive through, I guess that's okay too.