Th0r S1mpson

Help...

I bought a new TV a couple years ago but wasn't ready to go HDTV yet so I put down 700 or so on a CRT just to hold me over until I was ready to get something decent for both television and movies.

Lately I've finally been getting the itch to go out and get a TV. I'm still not ready for "high end" budget wise, but probably in the 1200-1800 range. So I went to Magnolia today to check out the latest and was extremely underwhelmed. I mean, what happened to quality picture? I understand the desire to hang a TV on the wall, but how can people stand watching these over-sized cell phones called televisions today?

Do people even understand what a good picture looks like? I can't believe these things sell. The picture on a good CRT still seems to blow away anything LCD. Plasma is sweet, but still too pricey. Now, DLP is what I want to know more about, if there is such a thing as quality there.

I'm now thinking it has to be the signal that was going into them... but they had the full HDTV package and I was able to flip though all sorts of HD channels. But the digital artifacts were simply atrocious. Maybe it's because I grew up in a video studio, or perhaps it's because I had a very nice (non-HD) Pioneer Elite several years back. But do people really accept this kind of picture these days? I swear that old TV looked better than some of the best I saw today (save the drool-inducing plasmas that are far beyond my budget). And the picture was most certainly not calibrated on all screens because of the differences I saw.

I'm guessing that to really judge these accurately, I need to see DVD or HD-DVD running on them. I'm not all that familiar with the HDTV world since I've intentionally tuned out, but is it simply far worse than a DVD and full of artifacts? For some reason I was thinking it would be comparable or better, but that's far from the case based on what I saw today.

I walked away with nothing, very little desire to upgrade my cable package to HD, and unsure if I will be upgrading my set at all now. Is a quality picture really out the door in this digital age? Will I see an extremely noticeable improvement when I put in a movie vs what I saw today?

What I care about the most here is a decent picture. I don't care if it's tiny, but DLP size would be nice. But if CRT is still the way to go, I could deal with that.

If I want to watch a movie with a solid picture, what do I need to get today? I'm looking for something around 36-42" with a great picture, under $1800. The 42" Samsung DLP seemed perfect to me until I went in today. Would that provide a genuinely quality movie viewing experience or is it more of the same "oooh look at my sweet new affordably made in China quality" blindness that seems to plague consumers today? Is DLP a genuinely quality product based on the standards I've laid out here?

Thanks. I need to believe.

X

I saw some pretty nice looking LCDs today, I guess they had a good source. They were obviously over driven brightness and color-wise but the showroom (Best Buy) was very bright. I wouldn't mind them for TV but I don't think I'd be happy with them for movies.

Same with the plasmas I looked at. But plasma has such large pixels you have to be so far away from it that the effective screen size is very small.

You might want to consider a projector if you can control the light in your viewing environment. I've been very happy with a $500 projector and a $250 106" screen.

Th0r S1mpson

Projector won't work well in this room unfortunately.

I guess what I'm looking for is something that smokes for movies and does okay with TV too. I would probably go with an LCD for TV-only like you say. The signal just isn't that hot to begin with so the LCD benefits can be realized without as much sacrifice.

How does DLP do in a reasonably controlled environment with DVD's? I've read that the blacks are good as well as the color... but the artifacts I saw today had me extremely worried. Is it likely those were coming from the source?

Is a DLP's picture going to beat out a traditional CRT of the same screen size and price range or the opposite?

X

A DLP will not beat a CRT. Colors can be good but it's still digital, has black level issues, and DLP in particular suffers from rainbow effects. I'm very sensitive to that. I see no artifacts on my projector; that seems like a source issue.

I don't know if DLP rainbows are much of a consideration in RPTVs though. I looked for it today and didn't notice it but the viewing environment wasn't the best. I don't know why they wouldn't be there in RPTVs but would be there in projectors.

My projector is a DLP and I like it for the size of the picture and a pretty decent picture as well. But it's not as good as the picture from my CRT RPTV and I'm sure I'd prefer a CRT projector if I wanted to devote the time and space to it.

I think a direct-view CRT would have a better picture than a DLP set of the same size but the direct-view CRT sets don't get all that big.

chipmac

Thor I totally agree with you that CRT based displays provide a much more filmlike and smooth image than any of the digital technologies being sold. The areas that CRT, especially CRT RPTVs, lack when compared with the new displays is with convergence and edge focus. LCD, plasma and DLP all are much better in these areas and don't need as much light control as an RPTV would.

I've never seen a properly set up DLP but from forum discussions with professional calibrators I understand that they can be made to be very close to a CRT. Signal source and poor user settings, especially brightness and sharpness, will enhance the artifacts you're seeing. Unfortunately CRT RPTVs are being discontinued from most manufacturers since flat panels make them more money and the average consumer doesn't care that it looks worse than CRT. If you can find a CRT RPTV and have the room for it than I think you should go that route. If you think that you want to go with DLP I would wait for the models with the ability to accept as well as display a 1080p signal so that you'll be set for the new HD disc formats should you want them. Either way plan on hiring a pro calibrator if you really want the best image possible from either technology.

Th0r S1mpson

True. If I want 42", direct view is pretty much out any way.

Is noticable grain in dark areas typical on a rear projection DLP? I saw a lot of this. Again, could have been a signal issue or the TV settigns, but I did notice it more on this TV than the one next to it. I figured the brightness was just cranked or the contrast off so it was showing more noticably.

X

I don't know anything about in particular about rear projection DLP. But I have to think the flaws of DLP would show up on a projector with only 854x480 resolution blown up to 106" diagonal. I don't see any artifacts or artificial grain in that environment.

Blitz6Speed

Costco has the Vizio 42" Plasma for 1499 and the 50" for 1999. Im picking up the 50" next week, its an amazing panel with just a SLIGHT few shortcommings but nothing that cant be handled. The 42" isnt as good as the 50 from what ive read on AVS.

X

Here's an interesting article on the pros and cons of various display technologies.

http://www.displaymate.com/ShootOut_Part_4.htm

Sdallnct

Another issue to remember is these new sets are so good they do show how bad the source really is.

For example, my DLP projector looks excellent with HD, very good with DVDp and CRAP with SD signal from my Dish Network.

If you have the room you might consider a CRT RP. Many still feel this provides the best pq currently available (with proper set up). They are also an excellent value since most folks are going with the new technologies.

Th0r S1mpson

My current set is a Toshiba 32AF43 which is not HD. Nothing spectacular, but not bad either.

My concern is that I would upgrade to HDTV and have a worse picture than I have now. That would be really lame, since I'm looking for a solid upgrade here.

The increase to 42" is nice, but not essential. I'm looking for a quality image over size. Clearly going bigger, image quality goes down if your resolution doesn't change. That's what I'm hoping HD would compensate for.

I do have room for a CRT.

Disregarding screen size (not a straight comparison, to be sure) I can get a 30" 1080i resolution CRT for half the price of a 42" DLP that's 720p.

How important is 1080 for HD-DVD? Will I be regretting not having 1080p a year from now? I want this next set to carry me into a 2nd generation HD-DVD player so if 1080 is going to be a requirement for good performance, the 42" Samsung DLP would be out for me. I know 720p is good, but is it future-ready?

Th0r S1mpson

I'll add that I've seen a lot of specs, read a lot of pros and cons of different formats. But nothing beats first hand experience, so I really value the things you guys have seen and heard.

That's partially why I was so disappointed today though. Magnolia has always had sweet home theater setups that you could sit down, enjoy, and really experience first hand before you buy. They are pricey, but I always figured they were the best place to go and look at these things. A bad source signal seemed unlikely to me when i walked in there. I thought I'd see the screens in the best environment possible. I mean it... they have always been the Bose of home theater. Impossible to beat.

(did I just wink?)

darkside

I walked into Best Buy's new Magnolia set up yesterday and they had a 60 inch DLP set up with a Toshiba XA1 HDDVD player. It looked like total dogshit. I was shocked as HD DVD looks great on my CRT RPTV at home.

I asked the guy there about it, but he was completely clueless on what was wrong with it. I noticed right away they had the TV in torch mode and tried adjusting the brightness settings, but it still looked awful. I'm still not 100% sure why, but for all I know they may have hooked it up through the composite connection. I asked him if the DLP was a 1080p one and he told me that you would need firewire for 1080p and that TV didn't support it. That was enough for me and I left.

Black level is definitely an issue with LCD screens. If that is important to you I think you would be much happier with a CRT or a plasma. My uncle has a 720p LCD and I have always liked his set up, but you just don't get those nice liquid blacks you get with CRT.

Chupa

I recently read a later article by the same author about LCoS. I've seen Sony and JVC selling RP models in US - here I've only seen projectors with that technology so far. Now, if I could find a Sony 50" SXRD for ~$2,100 over here, I think I could forget about that Sagem DLP I've been considering for some time now.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1930453,00.asp

Th0r S1mpson

Exactly the reason I am sitting here without a new television today.

How can I know how good/bad it will look when I get it home and set it up properly? I can read reviews, but honestly I don't know what expectations people have when they write them or what crappy other TVs they are comparing them to.

Maybe I'm being unreasonable in wanting to be blown away with projection quality. I guess I was just assuming things would have progressed more since the 90's with all the hype. Prices are definitely getting better, the technology is "cooler," but I don't know about quality.

I need to see some of these in action before I buy anything. I'll hold off a few months, let prices do their thing, and wait until I come across enough home sets to make a decision.

Reading about DLP, I was sure it was the right thing for me. I was ready to buy one on the spot after confirming my suspicions in person. Then I walked away.

I don't think I know anyone with a DLP set that I can check out, but I'll see what I come across. I'll check out some more store displays in the coming months as well. I'm sure as I view more sets in different settings I will be able to make a better judgment as to their actual quality.

And I should probably write Magnolia a letter.

Th0r S1mpson

I'd like to see more LCoS sets. Any tips on finding them? Amazon search results are scattered in that search and BestBuy.com only has 2 listed in monster sizes. Is there a 42-44" version out there?

Edit: Found more at Amazon, but looks like only 50" plus. I'll have to check them out in stores.

Anyone have/watched one?

Spiky

Calibration is needed to judge any TV. I would try to find user anecdotes post-calibration to judge quality. You simply can't do it on a showroom floor. CRTs probably look the worst OOTB, but should be able to look the best. If you can handle the giant box in the room. And CRTs really demand ISF calibration, which can eat up the price savings. Digital sets may be easier to simply calibrate with a setup DVD.

Pretty sure 50" is the smallest LCOS right now. If you can afford it, this would be an excellent buy.

And someone asked before: RP DLPs are more prone to rainbows than front projectors.

Chupa

It looks like Spiky is right, Sony's 50" seems to be the smallest one out there.

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_a.../sortby=priceA

http://www.bizrate.com/televisiontv/...__sort--5.html

It sounds like you have a critical eye, so I'm looking forward to hearing what you think of LCoS. I just hope you can find something that's been set up properly. It would be great to know for sure if this technology is really something worth waiting for.

Th0r S1mpson

Well, I'm going to check out LCoS, but probably only to see the quality difference for myself. Like you say, it will be hard to find a good setup to make a valid comparison side by side with correct settings. But 50" is probably larger than i'm looking to buy at this point. The quality may change that opinion, however. I would gladly save up for another 6 months to get something I'm happy with since I won't have HD-DVD yet by that point any way. I'm thinking I can live with what I have for a while to really look around and assess the state of things.

The 42" DLP is still an option I will consider if I find one on display that pleases me. I may go back to Magnolia at some point and request a DVD be thrown in to compare since the HD signals were so varied.

X

More? That must be terrible!

Is it that the color wheel is only 2x on RPs? My 4x projector even bothers me if I let it. I have to run it at the refresh rate that allows the highest rotation speed to not be really bothered.

X

I haven't seen RP LCoS sets yet but I did see Sony's original prototype of their LCoS projector and it was amazing! Color and black level were very nice. It was projected on a very large screen and I had to get a couple inches away to be able to see the individual pixels at all.

Spiky

Many RPs are 4x, also, so that's not it. I think it is the setup of the screen or something. Or it could just be a false impression, but I'm not the only one who has it.

I've set my PJ to 5x and I still see them all the time. It comes set to 4x, but is capable of 5x. I still can't believe this is an issue for only 2% of people, as is claimed.

You can generally reduce them with filters or grey screens on FPTV, so maybe it is just that you can't do much with a RPTV.

Th0r S1mpson

Well, I'm no longer so disenchanted.

I got stuck at the mall today when the wife wanted to get some clothes, so I wandered over to Sears. They had a ton of models on display, with a nice clean signal. Why Sears of all places would have a superior display to Magnolia is beyond me. Obviously the showroom was bright, but I got a much better idea of these screens. They were running Discovery HD and it looked very nice. Some really dramatic blacks and long nature shots with fine details that allowed me to really stare between different screens and get a good look.

The plasmas looked fantastic. The only issue that would be a notch down there for me is the glare. I think the 42" Samsung plasma that I looked at was my favorite overall, around $2500. The LCD's were none too shabby either, and I really like the lack of glare. But the "glowing" blacks and dark areas would bother me a bit while DVD watching. For TV, as X said, an LCD would be perfectly sufficient. But this is for my home theater.

They had the Sony version (from what I gathered) of LCoS called SXRD on a single set there... 50", and a nice picture. It was a long distance from the other sets so it's hard to make a valid comparison but it was nice. Not mind-blowing, but it also didn't have the same Discovery HD channel running, which I think would have looked much better than what was playing.

The had a 50" Samsung DLP, not the 42" I was looking for. It was much darker than the other sets. Possibly from the way it was set up, but LCD's will obviously be brighter and this was a very light showroom so I'm guessing that made the set seem darker. Still, from what I saw the Plasmas looked better at the time running the same show. The blacks are simply so pretty, and colors so rich.

I really want to see a DLP now in a better setting running a clean HD signal. I would still consider the Samsung 42" since it's within my current price range, but I may end up saving for a while to pick up a 42" plasma.

Thanks for all the tips everyone... I'm still exploring and want to see true LCoS as well. But of all that I've learned so far, the most important thing is that my current set is better than I thought previously. Not HD, but a good solid picture that I can certainly live with for a while.

Spiky

Most of these TVs will look good in your home, once calibrated. The showroom floor is meaningless. Completely meaningless. The sets are in "torch" mode with the settings skewed to hopefully make them look good in those giant, bright rooms. About the best you can do is to trust users on the net who have already calibrated. When I shopped for my TV, I went into a store once. ONCE. And that was to check out SDE. I bought a $2500 PJ sight unseen. It is awesome.

I've got such deja vu, I've been having this same conversation at Remote Central with a guy all week. DVE is under $17 at DDD. Consider it part of the sales tax on the TV. It will help, guaranteed.

The Sony SXRDs are very popular and look excellent when calibrated, from what I understand. If I was shopping for a RPTV, LCOS of any kind would probably be my only list. I'm sure the JVCs are also good.

Actually, most HDTVs are pretty good these days, once set up well. About the only complaints you will really find are actual lemons, HDMI issues and black level problems with LCD/DLP. And the black level issue is disappearing. They've done an amazing job getting good blakcs on LCD, esp. Epson has done some things that nobody thought could be done with that technology. Flat LCDs will have the most complaints, there is a lot of range in quality. But you are mostly looking at RP, anyway.

X

I've been reading about problems with this first generation of Sony LCoS RPTVs. The most common complaint seems to be a green blob over the picture.

Here's one of many threads about it over at AVS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=636342