collven

I have something that has really started bothering me lately and just wanted to get the opinions of some EBay sellers here. I have never sold anything, just bought a few things. I always pay within minutes of the auction being completed and have nothing but positive feedback.

Now, what bothers me is sellers who don't leave feedback. I have always tried to leave good feedback, even when the experience doesn't go very smoothly. But I just don't understand why sellers sometimes don't leave feedback, or refuse to leave it unless I leave them feedback first. Their only feedback should be if I paid promptly, which I always do. To withhold my feedback until they see what I leave for them just doesn't seem fair.

The reason it bothers me is that I have had several sellers who never left me feedback, and I need as much good feedback as possible if I ever intend to start selling anything.

I've pretty much decided that, as a buyer, I'm not leaving feedback for any seller that doesn't leave me feedback first. They've got my money, they shouldn't be waiting for anything else. If I feel the need to leave them negative feedback for a terrible transaction, which I've never done anyway, that has nothing to do with if I was a good buyer.

Chew

There was a lengthy thread about this topic in Other you may want to read through: http://forum.dvdtalk.com/showthread.php?t=459938

It was closed, but I think you'll get plenty of views on the subject.

ResIpsa

It is good practice for sellers to leave feedback only after buyers do so. This way the seller is protected from buyers who may find that they are not 100% satisfied with the sale and may choose to issue retaliatory feedback against the seller, who could then not fairly respond if he or she had already left feedback for the buyer.

When a seller sees that a buyer has left him or her positive feedback, that seller can rest assured that the buyer was satisfied with the transaction and safely leave feedback for the buyer.

Some buyers treat eBay like Walmart and believe that they are entitled to a return of any item for which they may find the smallest, most trivial defect. They will threaten the seller with negative feedback or, worse, a chargeback if the seller won't give in to the buyer. I had this happen to me once when a buyer complained that a $2 CD I had sold them had a few minor surface scratches on it (which were accurately described in my listing and which did not have any effect on playability). I was forced to pay the buyer for return shipping simply to preserve my 100% positive rating.

Sellers are simply more sensitive and vulnerable to negative feedback; after all a buyer's feedback score does not prevent them from bidding and winning any particular auction while a seller with even one negative might lose some bids. It makes sense for buyers to leave their feedback first as a common courtesy IMHO.

HokiEE

I don't really mind leaving feedback first as a buyer, but it is a pet peeve of mine when the seller doesn't leave feedback at all. I don't feel like I need to send them an email asking them to leave feedback. To your question, I've sold a few things on ebay and also wait for the transaction to be completed smoothly and receive feedback before I leave it. People can be way to picky and i'd rather bite a few dollars to pay for the seller to send it back to me and resell my item than get the negative feedback.

cdollaz

Sometimes as a buyer you have to be patient for feedback. I know of sellers who do all of their feedback every month or so as they do not have the time to sit down every day and deal with it.

danshane

ResIpsa,

Your view seems to be the commonly held one, but it flies in the face of how eBay feedback was originally designed to work. I have bought and sold plenty on eBay since 1998. I received my very first negative feedback after hundreds of positives just days ago because I posted neutral (not negative) feedback for a seller who sent a PAL format DVD (useless to me in the US) instead of the clearly advertised NTSC set.

I wrote twice to the seller and no refund or exchange was offered (though again, his listing said he WOULD do so). I posted the neutral FB to avoid real harm to the Asian seller, giving him the benefit of the doubt for what could have been a cultural misunderstanding. I simply wished to alert future bidders that they should ask questions before bidding and not simply trust the seller's listings.

Now his motive for withholding any feedback for my prompt payment became clear as he immediately posted vitriloic negative FB, calling me a deadbeat for wanting what I actually paid for. The negative was pure revenge (against eBay rules), but there was absolutely nothing I could do about it but post polite follow-up comments protesting my innocence. But I now have a Red Badge of Courage because I dared to post accurately my experience on eBay.

Sellers hold feedback so they can respond in kind should a buyer post negative FB. This is absolutely against eBay rules, but eBay will never enforce their own rules against a seller unless legal action forces them to do so. EBay's bread and butter is the sellers, not the buyers.

There is already an approved method of responding to negative feedback, and that is the follow-up comment line. Naturally this appeals to no one since it does not remove the stain. However, I choose to follow the rules, and I ALWAYS post positive feedback as soon as a buyer sends payment. He/she has done his/her bit, and it behooves the seller to say so. Withholding FB because it might be needed as a tit-for-tat weapon is an immature way of dealing with a customer.

Just because I ran into a vendor who doesn't follow the rules and misrepresented his product does not mean I will now assume everyone I deal with in the future is a crook. I prefer to take my lumps and stand on principle. Revenge feedback is WRONG, and eBay rules say so. It defeats the whole purpose of the FB system, but it has become the popular way of doing things. I refuse to follow suit. How others choose to do business is up to them, but I have little respect for sellers who don't have the fortitude to let their business practices speak for themselves and instead live in fear of their own customers.

Dan

P.S. (You can find my FB rating by searching for danshane)

enrage

i started emailing the seller if I don't receive feedback after my auction. I send a nice email and I always get feedback within a week.
You may want to try that route because I used to never get feedback from sellers.

MovieExchange

The belief that the buyer should leave feedback first is absolute bunk. The seller got their end of the transaction first, so the most they should ask for before leaving FB is that the buyer e-mail them to tell them that they received the item and they are satisfied with it.

I've found that the higher the feedback of the seller, the less likely they are to leave feedback for you even if you leave it first.

collven

I've started doing that and, most of the time, it does work. I still refuse to leave feedback first though. Let's face it, it's hard to be a seller if you don't have very much feedback, and the easiest way to get some positive feedback is to be a buyer first. If I'm not getting the feedback as a buyer, it hurts me when I decide to start selling some stuff.

tasha99

I always go first as a buyer, and as a seller, I either give feedback after I get it, or in a batch a month or two after the auction. I sell and buy about equally, and I don't really get the reluctance buyers have to go first. Buyers have almost nothing to lose from bad feedback and sellers have a lot to lose. Also, the buyer knows when the transaction is finished and it's a "done deal." The seller has no idea until feedback is left or the buyer sends an email saying the item has been received in good condition.

pOpus

As a seller, I generally don't leave feedback until it is left for me. I have received four negative comments (out of about 1850 total); all four were nitpicky complaints that I never heard a thing about until I left feedback myself. I will eventually leave feedback for everybody, but I will wait until the auction is at least 60 days old if the seller doesn't leave feedback for me first. I have had too many bad experiences.

Space_Monkey

As a buyer, I always leave feedback immediately upon satisfactorily receiving the item since from my perspective, the transaction is now concluded.

As a seller, I began by leaving feedback for buyers immediately after I shipped out their item. However, at least one-third of all buyers never had the courtesy to leave feedback in return. I am an honest seller who accurately describes everything, communicates to keep the buyer informed of each step in the process, packs well and ships fast so there is little doubt that they would not be 100% satisfied. Therefore, I decided to no longer reward those non-responsive buyers with positive feedback to build their reputation if they would not take a few seconds to afford me the same privilege.
I don't do it to hold out for revenge but rather to ensure that the buyer holds up their end since I believe that the ebay transaction is not completed until the buyer is satisfied with the item they received and the feedback system is the primary indicator of that.
I state my new philosophy in my listing so buyers will be aware that they will receive feedback after feedback has been left for me. If that is an issue they may choose not to bid. However, it has worked in that every buyer since then has left me feedback.

danshane

In other words, you are holding your feedback in case you need to return fire on an offender.

As I posted earlier, I have been both a buyer and a seller for quite some time. I EARNED my feedback by paying promptly as a buyer and providing good service with clear communication as a seller. I did not TRADE feedback, as seems to be the common practice. No one owes me feedback just because I left it for them. It is not part of the deal -- it is simply a courtesy.

Let's pretend these transactions happened in a retail store and not online. If you have accepted money from a customer, do you refuse to say "thank you" until the customer says it first? What if he never says it, but just picks up his bag and walks away? Since he has not offered to "trade" an expression of gratitude, does that negate your obligation to be a good and courteous tradesman?

On eBay the onus seems to be entirely on the buyer to act first in everything. He has to pay up front and wait for his item to arrive to verify that his money was properly spent. And now more and more sellers expect the buyer to also say "thanks" first in the form of feedback. The idea that the customer has already expressed trust by sending payment to a complete stranger never seems to occur to many sellers.

I've said it before, and I'm not taking it back. Sellers who withhold feedback because they place their importance ahead of the customer are cowards. they live in paralyzed fear that someone might place a red dot on their feedback page.

Horrors!

And to those who claim the buyers have nothing to lose by negative feedback, they are ignoring this: Increasingly there are sellers who refuse to sell to buyers with negatives. And many buyers eventually becomes sellers (as I did). If they are already loaded up with negatives that makes for a poor start as vendors.

This is not a case of "us or them" as if sellers and buyers are working against one another. A transaction is supposed to be a cooperative effort. Too many eBay sellers cannot see that, and I think they would fare quite poorly if they had to deal with customers face to face.

Dan

BKenn01

danshane, the problem with this analogy is that transactions on ebay are not like any retail store. If you are disgruntled about a transaction with a retail store, you may tell a few people, but for the most part it does not affect the retailers sales. Feedback does.

Feedback is always going to be a source of controversy. Mainly because ebay is vague and inconsistent in applying its rules.

cdollaz

Yeah, pretty much. Both of my negatives were given by dumbass buyers who are clueless as to how eBay works. One was not legit because the buyer changed his e-mail address but did not register the new address with eBay and therefore did not get my e-mails regarding the sell. A few days later I get a negative with the buyer complaining I failed to contact him after the sale. In the other situation the buyer had a legitimate complaint but left a negative immediately without out even contacting me or trying to work it out, which I would have been perfectly willing to do. In both cases they were given negatives back as both did not follow eBay's guidelines, one not updating his info and the other not contacting the buyer in case of a dispute.

Therefore I never leave feedback first as a seller because idiots like the above. I admit they probably ruin it for the rest of the intelligent buyers out there. I do not do it strictly as retaliation, but if they do not follow eBay's guidelines, I have no problem letting them have it.

Gizmo

As a seller mainly (with 400+ feedbacks) I NEVER leave FB first. Just because they pay does not mean they 'did there job'. Numerous things can go wrong.

Example:
I boughtyou're item and paid for First Class shipping however my item is not here!
(He bought item on Monday, Paid Wednesday, expects item to be on their doorstop on Friday)

Example:
Hi, I bought this item and it was suppose to be a gift! I couldn't give it as a gift and now I'm pissed!!!!!!
(Purchased item on a Thursday and expected it to arrive on Saturday)
Sidenote - Isn't it ALWAYS a gift? Lol

Example:
I bought this item and did not know the DVD will not play on my VCR. I want a refund! No, I will not pay to ship it back
(Happens ALOT)

Buyers often do NOT read the descriptions. You would be surprised how many e-mails I get asking if I will ship to Canada, when I clearly put WILL NOT SHIP TO CANADA, ASIA, ANYWHERE OUYTSIDE THE USA.

No matter how much you describe something someone will complain. Why should I leave a Positive and be afraid of getting a Negative. I have no 'power'. If Ive already left a FB...I'm screwed.

To those who think Ebay cares about sellers....WTF. If a buyer wants to get there money back and paid through Paypal, its WAY to easy. Regardless if that buyer has 3 feedback and I have 400 with proof of shipment and delivery, I'm still screwed.

Billyspunk

As sellers on Ebay we NEVER leave feedback first. We got burned badly a few times when we started now we wait until feedback is left for us. Alot of people never leave feedback and that is their choice, we just return the favor and save time by not leaving any either..

chuckydj

Wow! Let me just first say there are some fantastic arguments here on both sides. GizmoDVD I think you summed it up for me for the most part. I've been on ebay a littled over 7 years and 3 negatives(almost 1700 positive overall). One negative was left by accident he said great seller but clicked negative and somehow just went through the process leaving the feedback and emailed me to apologize. Another left a neutral with no comment except "ok". I asked why the neutral and he said whats wrong with neutral? I said I dunno whats wrong with paying for your auction? He was a non paying bidder. The other two were one package damaged by post office and left a negative without contacting me. Lastly a negative for a lost package and once again no contact..just leaves a negative and what do all three negative feedback users have in common? All had 0,1 or a negative overall rating already.

As a buyer I always leave feedback for the seller as soon as I recieve my package and am pleased with what I bought. In the rare occurrence their was a problem I always emailed them and told them what was wrong in a sane manner so they dont fly off the handle on me and everytime I either recieved a refund or they fixed the problem. Ebay also says BEFORE you leave feedback try to work out the problem with the seller/buyer. Request contact info if needed or email them and communicate with them to try and solve the problem. I think if buyers (mainly the problem here) would contact the seller there would be much less bad feedback. As a result of this I never leave feedback for a buyer first anymore either. Since their is no removing the negative if you recieve one for a seller its the only defense you have. Internet selling is a tricky thing as you have no idea who you are selling to.

reverie

Rather than create a new thread, I thought I'd ask the opinion of others here. So here's the scenario summed up:

Bought three items from a seller in late March. One wasn't going to be released until April, and I e-mailed saying to just ship the other two with the later one. No response. April comes and mid-month I e-mail just to check on the status of it. Again, no response. I figure okay, benefit of doubt and all. May comes and I e-mail once again, asking status and for the courtesy of a reply. Still no reponse.

At this point, I'm getting a little nervous and look into Paypal's protection thing, but it's been past the 45 days (although I didn't go far enough and try to file a dispute). I try e-mailing the address attached to Paypal for the seller, but it bounces right back to me.

By now I'm not expecting to get my items, and over the weekend I actually found & purchased the same thing (and it's not a cheap item.. $80). So yesterday I find out on eBay you can get the sellers contact info, so I try calling them. All I get is some odd ringing, so that evening I was going to proceed through eBay or Paypal in trying to get my money back. I like to give the seller the benefit of the doubt, and work it out with them first, but this wasn't going to happen it seemed. But.... what should show up yesterday afternoon, my won items!

So now comes my question (thanks for reading thus far!). I really want to leave neutral feedback, because they were lousy in communication, and it took almost a full month to get me my items from release date. But, I'm afraid that if I do, they'll respond in kind even though I had sent them payment within a day after the close of their auction (back to the debate of this thread..). This is extremely unfair I believe, as I tried everything to be accomodating and also tried communicating to no avail through the process.

What should I do?

disneyguy

Hi,
Depends on how bad you don't want "negative feedback" you can bet that is what
you will get..Since they haven't left you positive for your payment, they are probably'
waiting on your FB first..You could always leave "neutral FB" but be prepared to receive the same..If it were me I would just skip it, you got your item and they got your money..
tks,
DG

reverie

Well, I've done the neutral feedback once before for the same type of behaviour (no communication, very long wait for item) and they left me neutral also with a comment saying how I was a great buyer and they hoped to deal with me again. So the comment and feedback seemed a little misaligned to me! I just don't understand people and their pettiness.

chuckydj

I think if eBay had a "resolution system" required before you could leave a neutral or negative feedback it would work out better. Like when the buyer used to be able to recieve their item and if seller didn't have dc number they just said "Oh I didn't recieve" and paypal gave them a refund automatically. That was a bunch of crap. Heard they changed that policy a little though. Maybe if you had to file a complaint and work out problems like item condition or shipping time it wouldn't be such a problem for sellers to leave feedback first. Since ebay doesn't and won't remove feedbacks and/or comments left after they are made though it makes it very difficult to trust someone on the internet. No like going to a store and buying an item and you can deal with them face to face.

Josh-da-man

When I sell, I never leave feedback until after the buyer has left it for me first.

It's an easy way for the buyer to let me know he received the item, is satisfied with the transaction, and that the transaction is complete.

You never know when a buyer is going flake on you, be a colossal asshole, or try to scam you on something like claiming you sent the wrong item, or didn't send anything at all.

In my view, it is only when both parties have successfully completed the transaction that feedback should be sent, and since the receipt of the goods by the buyer is the final stage of the transaction, it is the responsibility of the buyer to initiate the first feedback.

And also, if the buyer has done everything they're supposed to do, there's no reason for them to assume the seller will leave a negative feedback. The same cannot be said of a seller who leaves feedback to a buyer fist.

Which isn't to say that there aren't sellers who won't leave (positive) feedback -- I've encounterd many who do not leave feedback -- but I'm not at all offended by sellers who hold the feedback hostage until they get it first.

Goldblum