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nemein
11-09-05, 01:34 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jordan_explosion;_ylt=Aq9vljIb_JJBWI4OEND7VRes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
11 minutes ago

AMMAN, Jordan - An explosion shook the Grand Hyatt hotel in Jordan's capital late Wednesday, and witnesses saw smoke rising from the building. A police official said some people had been killed, "and there are many wounded."

An American businessman who was at the hotel when the explosion occurred, said a "bomb that went off in the lobby." He declined to identify himself.

Police said the cause of the explosion was unknown.

A black cloud of smoke was seen rising from the building in the commercial Jebel Amman district following the blast at about 8:50 p.m. (1:50 p.m. EST).

Ambulances were seen rushing to the hotel.

Ranger
11-09-05, 01:55 PM
Jordan was ranked as one of the most anti-American countries in the world. I'd say that Western tourists would be foolish to go there.

Phil L.
11-09-05, 01:58 PM
Reports now saying Radisson and Days Inn hotels also rocked by explosions.

nemein
11-09-05, 01:59 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/jordan_explosion;_ylt=AhshGsEKVr44Vs8nShAhoUys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--


AMMAN, Jordan - Explosions hit three hotels in the Jordanian capital Wednesday night, and at least 12 people were killed. The first blast occurred at about 8:50 p.m. (1:50 p.m. EST) at the luxury Grand Hyatt hotel, popular with tourists and diplomats. Associated Press reporter Jamal Halaby, who was at the hotel, counted seven bodies being taken away. Police said there were many others injured.

A few minutes later, police reported an explosion at the Radisson SAS Hotel a short distance away. Police said five people were killed and at least 20 wounded.

Another explosion was reported at the Days Inn Hotel, and police said there were casualties.

Police had no word on what caused the explosions, although an American businessman at the Grand Hyatt said a bomb went off in the lobby. Witnesses saw smoke rising from the building.

Jordan, a close U.S. ally, has arrested scores of Islamic militants for plotting to carry out attacks in the moderate Arab kingdom. It has also sentenced numerous militants to death in absentia, including the Jordanian-born leader of al-Qaida in
Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

In July, prosecutors indicted five Jordanians in an alleged conspiracy to attack intelligence agents, tourists and hotels in Amman. Al-Zarqawi has not been linked to the alleged plot.

Phil L.
11-09-05, 02:17 PM
Jodanian news agency now reporting that it was 3 suicide bombers acting simultaneously.

Myster X
11-09-05, 02:19 PM
I think we can rule out radical Christian group responsible.

DVD Polizei
11-09-05, 02:22 PM
Considering Jordan is probably 5% Christian and 95% Muslim, I'd say you're probably correct.

Tommy Ceez
11-09-05, 02:30 PM
If we never stuck our nose in Iraq -ohbfrank-

DVD Polizei
11-09-05, 02:40 PM
Depending on the motives of the bombers, we don't know that yet.

It's interesting you came to that sarcastic pro-Bush position so quickly.

Not all terrorist attacks are related to Iraq, but you have to logically ask yourself, is our presence in Iraq creating more terrorism. And if it is not, then please tell me why.

In related news, we may have Al Zarqawi dead or in custody within a month.

Tommy Ceez
11-09-05, 02:58 PM
Depending on the motives of the bombers, we don't know that yet.

It's interesting you came to that sarcastic pro-Bush position so quickly.

Not all terrorist attacks are related to Iraq, but you have to logically ask yourself, is our presence in Iraq creating more terrorism. And if it is not, then please tell me why.

In related news, we may have Al Zarqawi dead or in custody within a month.

Nope, I think it probably has NOTHING to do with Iraq, but instead was making fun of people who blame everything in the world on Iraq...its not a pro-Bush statement, its an anti-moron statement

Goldblum
11-09-05, 02:58 PM
Those evil Australian mothers who cut off their babies' legs. -ohbfrank-

tommy28
11-09-05, 03:00 PM
i thought Bush said the world was a safer place?

mosquitobite
11-09-05, 03:02 PM
Chinese Police Warns of Possible Terror Attacks (http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-11-09-voa14.cfm)

By Heda Bayron
Hong Kong
09 November 2005

Bayron report - Download 400k
Listen to Bayron report


U.S. diplomats say that Chinese police have warned luxury hotels in China of possible terrorist attacks sometime next week. The warning Wednesday comes as preparations for President Bush's visit to Beijing later this month are under way.

The U.S. Embassy says the Chinese police warning was specific: Islamic extremists are planning to attack five and four-star hotels in China "sometime over the course of next week". The embassy advised Americans staying at luxury hotels to remain vigilant and to exercise caution.

classicman2
11-09-05, 03:11 PM
i thought Bush said the world was a safer place?

Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

DVD Polizei
11-09-05, 03:23 PM
Really, how so. Are you talking per event or per body count.

nemein
11-09-05, 03:38 PM
Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

I think it all depends upon what you call terrorism (aka are incidents in the Iraq war considered in that count)? If you do then the number of incidents is way up, if you don't it seems the number is down.

Since I can't get a pic from it go to http://www.tkb.org/ChartModule.jsp and run through it yourself. They seem to include the war incidents as terrorism related but if you pull those out (region search excluding middle east/south asia) the numbers from Jan 03 to today drop from about 800 to about 480. Unfortunately the "by country" only allows 12 at a time so you can't do a global excluding Iraq/Afghanistan search.

DISCLAIMER: I found this site mentioned in the wikipedia article on terrorism, I don't know anything about them beyond that...

kvrdave
11-09-05, 03:39 PM
Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

HERESY!!!!


Actually, much like violence in schools after Columbine, it wasn't school violence that had risen, just news reports of school violence.

nemein
11-09-05, 03:42 PM
HERESY!!!!


Actually, much like violence in schools after Columbine, it wasn't school violence that had risen, just news reports of school violence.

I'm pretty sure a more expansive definition of terrorism has been adopted recently so incidents that weren't counted before would be now.

bareva
11-09-05, 03:45 PM
ABC News Now having live feed of explosions.

nemein
11-09-05, 03:46 PM
ABC News Now having live feed of explosions.

Are you saying there are more explosions or are they showing recordings taken of the explosions?

bareva
11-09-05, 03:50 PM
Are you saying there are more explosions or are they showing recordings taken of the explosions?

No, I meant news coverage of the attacks.

Lord Rick
11-09-05, 03:50 PM
Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

Hogwash!

;)

Nazgul
11-09-05, 10:18 PM
Apparently Jordanian citizens are being punished for co-operating with the US.

How's this going to play in the Arab world?

67 unfaithful getting what they deserve by going to a western hotel?

Or the realization that the monsters they've sympathized with for years don't care who they kill?

mikehunt
11-09-05, 10:21 PM
Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

but media coverage is probably up

dolphinboy
11-09-05, 11:13 PM
How's this going to play in the Arab world?

67 unfaithful getting what they deserve by going to a western hotel?

Or the realization that the monsters they've sympathized with for years don't care who they kill?

The first one.

eXcentris
11-09-05, 11:19 PM
Terrorism, worldwide, is actually down.

Ahem... Repost, for people with short memories: :)

Numbers of terrorist attacks worlwide are up by 300% since the Iraq invasion and this doesn't even include insurgent attacks on US soldiers in Iraq. The 2003 State Department report on global terrorism which was submitted to Congress grossly underestimated the figures.


June 14, 2004

WASHINGTON - A State Department report that incorrectly showed a decline last year in terrorism worldwide was a “big mistake,” Secretary of State Colin Powell said Sunday.


The 2003 report was later revised, but only after Bush used the bogus figures for his reelection campaign as evidence of his administration's success in the war on terror.

After the embarassment of 2003 guess what happened in 2004. The report, which would have shown a huge spike in attacks to 625, from the 2003 record of 175, was not published because Miss Rice eliminated the 2004 edition. The declassified versions of the annual reports had been made public every year since 1986 but were replaced in 2004 by a report sent to Congress without any statistical data...

Myster X
11-10-05, 12:49 AM
heh...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/19/wsafe19.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/19/ixportal.html

World is a safer place despite people's fears
By Francis Harris in Washington
(Filed: 19/10/2005)

Widespread fears about a world in a perpetual state of war are unfounded, a study says today. It emphasises that the number of conflicts between nations, civil wars, battle deaths, coups and genocides has been falling steeply for more than a decade.

While the authors note that bloody wars continue in Iraq, Afghanistan and Congo, they argue that there are substantial grounds for optimism.

The first Human Security Report, written by academics led by Andrew Mack, of the University of British Columbia, cites popular notions that war is becoming more common and deadlier, that genocide is rising and that terrorism poses the greatest threat to humanity.

"Not one of these claims is based on reliable data," it says. "All are suspect; some are demonstrably false. Yet they are widely believed because they reinforce popular assumptions."

The authors say there are 40 per cent fewer armed conflicts than in the early 1990s. Between 1991 and last year 28 wars for self-determination began but 43 were ended or contained.

In 1992, when the Yugoslav wars of secession began, there were 51 state-based conflicts around the world. The figure dropped to 32 in 2002 and 29 in 2003. The arms trade declined by a third from 1990 to 2003 and the number of refugees fell by 45 per cent between 1992 and 2003.

In 1950 each conflict killed 38,000 people on average. By 2002 that had dropped to 600.

However, the report, which was funded by five nations including Britain, says that the potential for a major upsurge in violence remains.

"The risk of new wars breaking out or old ones resuming is very real in the absence of a sustained and strengthened commitment to conflict prevention and post-conflict peace-building," the authors say.

Most of the data gathered ended in 2003, the last full year for which statistics were available. That means that most of the deaths caused by the war in Iraq are not included. But by the standards of the bloodiest conflicts since the end of the Second World War, the deaths in Iraq are relatively few. About 27,000 Iraqis and Americans have died.

Major conflicts of the past 60 years, including Algeria, Korea, Vietnam, Congo and Sudan have killed between 400,000 and two million.

Prof Mack, an Australian former United Nations official, attributes much of the success in ending conflict to UN peacekeeping operations.

The reduction in war is also attributable to the end of the Cold War, he says. From 1945 to 1989, many local conflicts were aggravated by the intervention of the two great power blocs.

DVD Polizei
11-10-05, 06:09 AM
Terrorist attacks are up. Period. The report above has to do with body counts and uses non-terrorist events to inflate their figures. Ok, whatever. We're talking terrorist events.

We probably won't see disease kill people like it did back in the dark ages either, but that doesn't mean doctors and scientists should say, "Oh well. We had millions die hundreds of years ago. It'll NEVER get that bad. Might as well find a new career!"

nemein
11-10-05, 06:27 AM
Terrorist attacks are up. Period.

Substantiate the claim.

We probably won't see disease kill people like it did back in the dark ages either, but that doesn't mean doctors and scientists should say, "Oh well. We had millions die hundreds of years ago. It'll NEVER get that bad. Might as well find a new career!"

:hscratch: I don't see how this analogy fits. Who's saying we are secure now and should forget about fighting terrorism? As far as counting terrorist incidents and whether the number is up or down we really need a consensus definition of what exactly a terrorist incident is first don't we? AFAIK that still hasn't realy been decided yet since everyone involved seems to have their own axe to grind about what should or shouldn't be included.

CRM114
11-10-05, 08:08 AM
Al-Qaida Links Jordan Bombings to Iraq War (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/10/D8DPK7TG4.html)
Nov 10 7:57 AM US/Eastern
Email this story
By JAMAL HALABY
Associated Press Writer

AMMAN, Jordan

Al-Qaida claimed responsibility Thursday for three suicide bomb attacks on Western hotels that killed at least 56 people, linking the deadly blasts to the war in Iraq and calling Amman the "backyard garden" for U.S. operations. Police continued a broad security lockdown and authorities sent DNA samples for testing to identify the attackers. Land borders were reopened after being closed for nearly 12 hours.
Continued... (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/10/D8DPK7TG4.html)


:sigh:

classicman2
11-10-05, 08:20 AM
Al-Qaida will always find some excuse for their terrorist activities. If there was no war in Iraq, they would still come up with some excuse.

Nazgul
11-10-05, 08:21 AM
:sigh:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-11-09-jordan-blast_x.htm


Born in the Jordanian town of Zarqa, Zarqawi, who has a $25 million bounty on his head, was sentenced to death in absentia in April 2004 by a Jordanian court for the 2002 murder of U.S. diplomat Laurence Foley in Amman.

A U.S. counterterrorism official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing, said the strong suspicion is that al-Zarqawi was involved because of his known animosity for Jordanian monarchy and the fact that it was a suicide attack, one of his hallmarks.

:sigh: :sigh:

CRM114
11-10-05, 08:26 AM
Of course it was about animosity to the Jordanians. Duh.

nemein
11-10-05, 08:27 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051110/ap_on_re_mi_ea/jordan_explosion;_ylt=AmWr.lyeX4oSIcLqyjtCR1ys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--


AMMAN, Jordan - Hundreds of angry Jordanians rallied Thursday outside one of three U.S.-based hotels attacked by suicide bombers, shouting, "Burn in hell, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi!" after the terrorist's group claimed responsibility for the blasts that killed at least 56 people.

In an Internet statement, al-Qaida in
Iraq linked the blasts at the Grand Hyatt, the Radisson SAS and the Days Inn hotels to the war in Iraq and called Amman the "backyard garden" for U.S. operations.

Police continued a broad security lockdown and authorities sent DNA samples for testing to identify the attackers. Land borders were reopened after being closed for nearly 12 hours.

The Amman protest was organized by Jordan's 14 professional and trade unions — made up of both hard-line Islamic groups and leftist political organizations — traditionally a vocal critic of King Abdullah II's moderate and pro-Western policies.

Protesters — including women and children — gathered outside a bombed hotels, shouting, "Death to al-Zarqawi, the villain and the traitor!" Drivers honked the horns of vehicles decorated with Jordanian flags and posters of the king. A helicopter hovered overhead.

"We sacrifice our lives for you, Amman!" the protesters chanted.

State television said a second rally was planned in the Red Sea port of Aqaba, where attackers using Katyusha rockets narrowly missed a U.S. ship and killed a Jordanian soldier in August.

The streets of the capital appeared deserted early Thursday, which was declared a day of mourning. Public and private offices were closed under government instructions, apparently to allow tightened security measures to take hold.

Government spokesman Bassel Tarawneh said 56 people were killed in the suicide attacks, but he said that number likely would rise. The victims included 15 Jordanians, five Iraqis, one Saudi, one Palestinian, three Chinese, one Indonesian; 30 others had not been identified.

The nearly simultaneous attacks also wounded more than 115 people, police said. They detained several people overnight, although it was unclear if they were suspects or witnesses.

The al-Qaida claim said Jordan became a target because it was "a backyard garden for the enemies of the religion, Jews and crusaders ... a filthy place for the traitors ... and a center for prostitution." The authenticity of the posting could not be independently verified, but it appeared on an Islamic Web site that is a clearing house for statements by militant groups.

The claim, signed in the name of the terrorist group's spokesman, said the attacks put the United States on notice that the "backyard camp for the crusader army is now in the range of fire of the holy warriors."

The hotels, frequented by Israelis and Americans among other foreign guests, have long been on al-Qaida's hit list.

Iraqi government spokesman Laith Kubba said the attack should alert Jordan that it needed to stop hosting former members of
Saddam Hussein's regime.

"I hope that these attacks will wake up the `Jordanian street' to end their sympathy with Saddam's remnants ... who exploit the freedom in this country to have a safe shelter to plot their criminal acts against Iraqis."

He also said Iraqis may have had a hand in the attacks.

"The al-Qaida organization has become as a plague that affected Iraq and is now transmitted by the same rats to other countries. A lot of Iraqis, especially former intelligence and army officers, joined this criminal cell," Kubba said.

Deputy Prime Minister Marwan Muasher said shortly after the blasts that al-Zarqawi was a "prime suspect." The Jordanian-born al-Zarqawi is known for his animosity to the country's Hashemite monarchy. The claim of responsibility did not name King Abdullah II but twice referred to the "tyrant of Jordan."

In the attacks, the suicide bombers detonated explosives at the three hotels just before 9 p.m. One explosion occurred inside a hall where 300 guests were celebrating a wedding.

Until late Wednesday, Amman — a comfortable, hilly city of white stone villas and glitzy high-rises — had mostly avoided large-scale attacks and was a welcome sanctuary of stability in a troubled region.

Al-Zarqawi is most known for the string of devastating suicide attacks launched in Iraq, often against U.S. targets but also against Shiite Iraqis. He has shown a flair for propaganda and drawn wide support among militants in the region.

But outside Iraq, and especially in Jordan, he has been equally active.

He was sentenced to death in absentia by a Jordanian military court for the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat, Laurence Foley, in Amman.

His group also is accused of previously trying to blow up the Radisson SAS in Amman as part of the so-called Millennium plot in 1999 and of the August attack at the Jordanian port of Aqaba. In Amman, a security official said authorities had tips on suspects who are being hunted, including possible sleeper cells or individuals who may have assisted the attackers and later fled in a vehicle bearing Iraqi license plates.

The official, insisting on anonymity because he is not allowed to speak to reporters, said DNA tests were being carried out to determine the identity of the perpetrators, including two suicide bombers who blew themselves up. A third suicide attacker used a car.

The state Jordan Television showed Abdullah inspecting the sites of the blasts after returning home early Thursday, cutting short an official visit to Kazakhstan. He later presided over a meeting of his security chiefs, including police and intelligence.

eXcentris
11-10-05, 09:18 AM
heh...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/19/wsafe19.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/19/ixportal.html

World is a safer place despite people's fears
By Francis Harris in Washington
(Filed: 19/10/2005)

Widespread fears about a world in a perpetual state of war are unfounded, a study says today. It emphasises that the number of conflicts between nations, civil wars, battle deaths, coups and genocides has been falling steeply for more than a decade.



Which has nothing to do with terrorism. Next!

classicman2
11-10-05, 09:27 AM
According to at least 3 talking heads - they said yesterday that terorist acts so far in 2005 is down from the record year of 2004.

nemein
11-10-05, 09:38 AM
According to at least 3 talking heads - they said yesterday that terorist acts so far in 2005 is down from the record year of 2004.

Which of the many "talking heads" are we talking about here though... please substantiate your claim ;)

eXcentris
11-10-05, 10:13 AM
The report, which would have shown a huge spike in attacks to 625, from the 2003 record of 175

To be fair, and after a bit more research, it would seem that almost half of these 600+ attacks in 2004 occured in Kashmir where there was a huge spike. But even if you completely ignore those, there is a significant increase.

RoyalTea
11-10-05, 10:36 AM
I don't think that the US presence in Iraq is the REASON for terrorist actitvies, but it does provide a very easy excuse.

If there was no US presence in Iraq, the terrorists would just cite something else as the reason for their attacks.

DVD Polizei
11-10-05, 11:01 AM
Substantiate the claim.

It already has been? Does everyone have eXcentris on ignore or something?

The Human Security Report is taking one set of data and applying a sweeping wide bruch over terrorism. That's idiotic. And downright stupid. We're not talking about worldwide wars. We're talking about terrorism incidents. Not the Vietnam War. Not Korea. Not the Congo.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rm/45279.htm

International Terrorism is up. And this isn't even including Domestic Terrorism.

International Terrorism didn't even include Iraq bombings. Why? Because, and I quote the Brennan:

"Iraq is a particularly difficult case. In the case of Iraqis attacking Iraqi election officials, this clearly did not meet the statutory definition. It was an attack in Iraq against Iraqis by Iraqis, and we generally found it virtually impossible to distinguish between insurgency and terrorism. Iraqis, for instance, fight for the terrorist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, as well as for insurgent forces; but there is no defensible way to distinguish between the two: insurgents and terrorists. As such, our chronology focuses on attacks that killed or wounded non-Iraqi civilians in Iraq, and they are included in the chronology."

Is that a retarded statement or what. He won't even include Iraq terrorist events because he just amazingly concurred in his own little brain, that all Iraqis are fighting each other and nobody else. He never even let the possibility enter his itty bitty mind, that there were terrorists from Syria and Iran, and Jordan. In addition, we're now seeing the INSURGENT being used now, instead of terrorist, further separating the definition.

By the time 2008 rolls around for election time, the State Department will have stats that prove no terrorist attacks whatsoever happened, and that the US troops who died, we're all on special forms of leave, and were fighting insurgents not terrorists, so technically, none died in combat.

Can we get a few banana dancers from the State Department Mr. Brennan?

:banana: :banana:

Thanks, bud.

Brennan makes a typical statement by saying since the 2003 figures were royally fucked up, he's hired more personnel, blah blah blah, and the corrected numbers we see for 2004 can't necessarily be considered an increase since he can't get figures for 2003 now.

Yeah ok. Isn't that convenient. First, you fuck up 2003 figures to make everyone feel better. Then, when you get caught with your panties down in a hunched over position, you quickly bring those panties up to your waist again, stand up and say, "Ahem. But we have corrected the figures for 2004, and since 2003 haven't been corrected and I don't when we will do that, we can't necessarily say there's been an increase."

Please. Are people this stupid to believe such nonsense? Apparently there's quite a few.

Here's another awesome response by Brennan:

QUESTION: The final question was, why didn't you go back and redo the '03 data so that --

MR. BRENNAN: I think, as we tried to make clear, there are some serious shortcomings in the methodology used to date. What we wanted to do this year was to put out the information based on that methodology, based on a very rigorous application of that methodology with a very exhaustive data search. And I think what we demonstrated here today is that there are serious shortcomings. To apply very precious resources to go back and do 2003 or 2002 with a deficient methodology, I think, would not be in the best interests of the U.S. Government or the American people. What we're trying to do is to look forward. We want to, in fact, apply these resources, our new understanding, and the lessons that we've learned to the data compilation in the future.

I say goddayim, this administration makes me laugh so hard, I shit my pants about every week I hear something from them--regardless of what office it comes from.

That's ok, Mr. Brennan. Keep on lookin' forward! :banana:

nemein
11-10-05, 11:26 AM
It already has been? Does everyone have eXcentris on ignore or something?

No but all he provided was some random paragraphs and an unreferenced quote... not what I call substantiation.

Also this report seems to be about '04, c-man's claim is in '05 it's trending down. Guess we have to wait on him to provide what info he can supply.

General Zod
11-10-05, 11:43 AM
I don't think that the US presence in Iraq is the REASON for terrorist actitvies, but it does provide a very easy excuse.

If there was no US presence in Iraq, the terrorists would just cite something else as the reason for their attacks.
Agreed. Terrorists were blowing stuff up around the region way before we had anything to do with Iraq. It's just that now they use Iraq as an excuse and it's very successful as the western media quickly re-focuses blame on everyone other than who actually carried out the attacks.

nemein
11-10-05, 12:03 PM
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/rm/45279.htm

QUESTION: Um, 651 attacks in 2004, compared to 175 attacks in your report in 2003. That's a sharp increase in terrorist attacks. What does that tell us about the war on terrorism -- the global war on terrorism and the cooperation?

MR. BRENNAN: I will tell you, but I just want to make sure it's clear: It does not necessarily represent a sharp increase in the number of terrorist attacks. What a sharp increase is in the number of incidents being reported now annually, again as a result of much more rigorous research and identification of all these incidents. So I want to make sure it's understood that the numbers cannot be compared in a meaningful way because the number now is what is being reported as far as terrorist incidents. If we were to go back and apply that much more extensive research with a (inaudible) against that against that dataset in 2003, I bet you that we're probably going to see more. But again, what we want to do is to use those resources to continue to engage in counterterrorism activities looking in the future.

MR. ZELIKOW: I mean, the short answer is it doesn't tell us anything about the war on terror. The statistics are simply not valid for any inference about the progress, either good or bad, of American policy. I think that's the honest answer. If you just look at what the statistics are and what kind of inferences can legitimately be drawn from them, I can't come up with a defensible inference.
...
QUESTION: Just to clarify, are you now saying you're -- I'm interested in both Mr. Zelikow and Mr. Brennan's opinion on this -- are we now saying that all previous reports should be considered suspect because of the issues that the NCTC managed to identify in its review of the report for this year's report? In other words, should we consider that there is not a useful evaluation of terrorist activity in all previous reports, first of all.

And second of all, you've talked about the changes in your methodology and your information collection, that you've had ten people working full time to gather incidents, for example -- but I'm less clear on what changes in methodology you're saying. In other words, aside from potentially gleaning more terrorist incidents that were out there that you might not have in previous years, have you made other substantial changes in your methodology from previous years?

MR. ZELIKOW: Let me do the first one and if you understood the second question, John, I'll let you try to answer; it was hard for me.

On the first question, what does this say about the quality of the data compilations in previous years, I think it speaks for itself. I think now you have to -- people should examine those compilations in previous years with their eyes wide open as to the level of effort involved in compiling the data and the counting rules they labored under. Rules, which as John described earlier, seemed to make good sense in the 1980s when they began regularly doing this. And then you can judge the quality of how that worked over the years.

This is, by the way, not an unusual problem in the social sciences, where there are lots of phenomenon that we try to measure -- poverty, unemployment and so forth -- and advancing methodology and questions then as how you regard previous statistics calculated by different methods. And this is, yet, another one of those stories.

MR. BRENNAN: I think looking back at previous years’ data, there is, I think, a degree of confidence that the methodology and criteria, as defined by the statute, were applied as the counts were done on an annual basis. Might there have been some underreporting? Yeah, I think so. But it was partly a result of that limitation that was imposed by the statutory definition, as well as the practices that were used as far as trying to define some of these other aspects of terrorism.


Regarding the 03 v the 04 numbers wasn't there legislation that went into effect/changes in policy that led to different incidents being counted differently?

BigPete
11-10-05, 12:52 PM
CNN says Jordanians are protesting - they're chanting for AL-Zarqawi to burn in hell. Good stuff.

General Zod
11-10-05, 12:58 PM
CNN says Jordanians are protesting - they're chanting for AL-Zarqawi to burn in hell. Good stuff.
Weird country. Why are they not blaming themselves? Why are they not going with conspiracy theories that their King planned the whole thing in some diabolical plan? Why are they not upset that their leader was busy reading "my pet camel" and didn't immediately do something to stop the bombings? I want answers.

bareva
11-10-05, 03:30 PM
...we wouldn't have been hit on 9/11? :hscratch:

If the previous administrations and the present would have done their jobs we wouldnt have 9/11 and we wouldnt stucked our noses in the middle east.

DVD Polizei
11-10-05, 03:31 PM
GZ,

Different group of people. There are still those who support Zarqawi in Jordan.

-----

Looks like Zarqawi made a big mistake this time. He's supposedly in the area of Baghdad, or in the city itself, getting ready for some violent anti-Decemeber 15 action. I think we're going to see much more violence than what we saw previously around 10-15.

If this is accurate, we might see him caught, or better yet, killed.

nemein
11-10-05, 03:31 PM
If the previous administrations ... we wouldnt stucked our noses in the middle east.

That's quite a few administrations ago ;)

bareva
11-10-05, 03:37 PM
That's quite a few administrations ago ;)

... If I have to guess probably since Carter's administration and on.

nemein
11-10-05, 03:44 PM
... If I have to guess probably since Carter's administration and on.

I think it's more like from Truman and on. Hopefully someone more in the know can correct me if I'm wrong though. Essentially from the foundation of Israel at the end of WW2 we've been invovled, whether or not we were significantly involved before then I don't know.


I haven't read through it all, and it is over a decade old, but it might help w/ some background info http://homepage.mac.com/mickeyhuff/iblog/C41037753/E1078292943/

DVD Polizei
11-10-05, 06:31 PM
Interesting quote from that link:

Indeed, there is little new in Bush's new world order, except the Soviet Union's assistance. That may mean the new order will be far more dangerous than the old, because it will feature an activist U.S. foreign policy without the inhibitions that were formerly imposed by the superpower rivalry. That bodes ill for the people of the Middle East, as well as for the long-suffering American citizens, who will see their taxes continue to rise, their consumer economy increasingly distorted by military spending, and their blood spilled--all in the name of U.S. leadership.

Pretty much applies now as it did 10 years ago. Talk about not falling far from the tree.

Giantrobo
11-11-05, 05:13 AM
Ahem... Repost, for people with short memories: :)

Numbers of terrorist attacks worlwide are up by 300% since the Iraq invasion and this doesn't even include insurgent attacks on US soldiers in Iraq. The 2003 State Department report on global terrorism which was submitted to Congress grossly underestimated the figures.



The 2003 report was later revised, but only after Bush used the bogus figures for his reelection campaign as evidence of his administration's success in the war on terror.

After the embarassment of 2003 guess what happened in 2004. The report, which would have shown a huge spike in attacks to 625, from the 2003 record of 175, was not published because Miss Rice eliminated the 2004 edition. The declassified versions of the annual reports had been made public every year since 1986 but were replaced in 2004 by a report sent to Congress without any statistical data...



Canadian for, "It's Bush's fault". :lol:


eX I happen to agree with you.

Heat
11-15-05, 12:01 AM
If it's true, this is great: A 4th suicide bomber was caught after her bomb didn't detonate:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/14/jordan.blasts/index.html

And if it is true, I'm also happy that she is in the middle east where her comfort won't be the primary concern for her captors. Let's face it, if her bomb had gone off dozens of innocent people would have been murdered.

Myster X
11-15-05, 12:12 AM
Why are the Jordanians marching in droves and protest all of a sudden? Where were they when Palestinian militants were brutally and ruthlessly killing innocent people? Where was this Abdullah loser when 4 American contactors were mutilated and drag on the streets in Iraq? How come they didn't march when acts of terror taken place almost daily in Iraq committed by the insurgents?
Oh I get it, terrorism is no fun at all once it hits home. If it taskes place in a foreign, fuck em.

Th0r S1mpson
11-15-05, 08:50 AM
Why are the Jordanians marching in droves and protest all of a sudden? Where were they when Palestinian militants were brutally and ruthlessly killing innocent people? Where was this Abdullah loser when 4 American contactors were mutilated and drag on the streets in Iraq? How come they didn't march when acts of terror taken place almost daily in Iraq committed by the insurgents?
Oh I get it, terrorism is no fun at all once it hits home. If it taskes place in a foreign, fuck em.
Where are the Americans marching in the streets over the bombing in Jordan? Of course it hits home when the attack is on your soil.

joshd2012
11-15-05, 12:38 PM
Story coming soon. CNN Headline.

joshd2012
11-15-05, 12:57 PM
AMMAN, Jordan (AP) -- Eleven top Jordanian officials, including the kingdom's national security adviser, resigned Tuesday in the wake of last week's triple hotel bombings, state-run TV announced.

King Abdullah II appointed Marouf al-Bakhit, Jordan's ambassador to Israel, to replace outgoing security chief Saad Kheir, a former chief of Jordan's intelligence department.

No details were given for the resignation of Kheir and 10 others, including Royal Court chief and former prime minister Faisal Fayez, one of the king's closest confidants, and prominent religious advisers to Abdullah.

But a limited shake-up had been expected for some time.

Fayez was expected to be appointed speaker of the 40-member senate, a body appointed by the king that liaises with Jordan's 110-member elected parliament.

Senate appointments were expected this week, according to Jordanian newspapers.

The TV announcement made no reference to last Wednesday's attacks on three Amman hotels that killed 61 people and dented the reputation of the country's revered security services.

But the bombings sparked national outrage and raised concerns over the handling of the country's national security services.

There has also been criticism over how the four Iraqi cell members entered Jordan on November 5 without being detected before carrying out their attacks.

Kheir coordinated between the king and different security apparatuses on national security issues such as counterterrorism, crime and border controls.

The bombings were claimed by al-Qaida in Iraq, which is headed by Jordanian-born Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/15/jordan.resignations.ap/index.html

DVD Polizei
11-15-05, 02:00 PM
Too bad we didn't have certain security officials resign after 9/11.

Myster X
11-15-05, 02:20 PM
Where are the Americans marching in the streets over the bombing in Jordan? Of course it hits home when the attack is on your soil.

We don't but we condemn it. When was the last time you hear Jordan denounce the bombing against civilians in Israel or Iraq or stage a protest?

jdodd
11-15-05, 02:22 PM
We don't but we condemn it. When was the last time you hear Jordan denounce the bombing against civilians in Israel or Iraq or stage a protest?
If they did, do you think it would be news? Even in conservative media? I mean, honestly, would anyone care what Jordan had to say about events in Israel?

Myster X
11-15-05, 02:29 PM
Say it or not, Jordan is playing two-face here. Where was this Abdullah a-hole when 4 Americans where mutilated and drag on the streets in Iraq? Yet, he came out like a celebrity slamming the Bush admin. when the Abu Ghraib prison abuse leaked. Believe what you want but when terrorism strikes western-like culture, some political figures in the Middle East love it. Strike in their own soil and what them cry like a baby.

DVD Polizei
11-15-05, 03:19 PM
Jordan is doing the same as Saudi Arabia has done, and yet the US is friends with Saudi Arabia. Until the US stops playing two-faced, I don't see why Jordan should be singled out.


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