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resinrats
10-16-05, 03:04 PM
I have never understood the whole "Hillary will run for President in 2008" talk. Why? Does she really stand a chance of winning? Other than being a 1 term senator, I'm not sure she has held any public office before (1st lady isn't an office so that doesn't count). I'm from NY and I can't recall a single thing she has done for NY as a senator. So in my view, she has done squat.

Is it just her name? If anyone else had her exact same qualifications, would anybody give a crap?

Is it because she's a woman? At least in my view, that would be just some cheap gimmick to be elected based on this. The same with a minority running. Becoming president should be based on your credentials/plans for the country not your gender or your ethinicicy.

astrochimp
10-16-05, 03:08 PM
Couldnt be any worse than the current president.

Th0r S1mpson
10-16-05, 03:39 PM
Because it's Hilary. People have seen this coming since she was the first lady.

Jason
10-16-05, 03:56 PM
She's the boogie man. Run for your lives!

Ooga booga!

Red Dog
10-16-05, 04:03 PM
She has the best chance of winning the Dem nomination, so that's why people would say she has a chance overall.

Groucho
10-16-05, 05:29 PM
I can't say I'm a big Hillary fan, but she's got a surprising amount of support already. I live in the reddest state in the Union, and I've seen quite a few "Hillary 2008" bumper stickers.

classicman2
10-16-05, 05:32 PM
You're not juding Hillary's support by bumper stickers, are you?

Believe it or not - there are Democrats who live in Utah.

Groucho
10-16-05, 05:34 PM
:lol: That was an anecdote, it wasn't data.

kvrdave
10-16-05, 05:37 PM
Because Democrats love a strong independant woman. So they will take one who has only gotten where she is by riding the coattails of a man, and try to pass her off as one. :)

WCChiCubsFan
10-16-05, 05:41 PM
Other than being a 1 term senator, I'm not sure she has held any public office before....I'm from NY and I can't recall a single thing she has done for NY as a senator. So in my view, she has done squat.Every look at the resume of the current President. It's not as if he had a long history of elected office either.

Hillary could win the nomination but not a nation race. The way the political environment has changed in this country the typical white male in the Red states would vote for Stalin before they voted for any Democrat let alone a Clinton.

classicman2
10-16-05, 05:49 PM
It takes skill to stay ahead of the law as Hillary has for a couple of decades. ;)

4KRG
10-16-05, 05:53 PM
I don't think "middle america" will elect a female in the year 2008, no matter who she is or what her qualifications are. I just don't think the US is ready for a female or a minority leader in the white house just yet.

classicman2
10-16-05, 06:07 PM
I disagree with that assessment.

I believe this country would elect the 'right kind of woman.' And, I don't mean a right-wing kind of woman. ;)

Bacon
10-16-05, 06:44 PM
Couldnt be any worse than the current president.
:thumbsup:


Whomever wins in '08 will have one hell of a mess to fix

classicman2
10-16-05, 06:52 PM
How often have I heard that said?

Nazgul
10-16-05, 07:03 PM
I don't think "middle america" will elect a female in the year 2008, no matter who she is or what her qualifications are.

How do you know what "Middle America" thinks?

joshd2012
10-16-05, 07:36 PM
Whomever wins in '08 will have one hell of a mess to fix

Agree.

It won't be Hilary. There will need to be a female vice president before you have a female president. There are not only a bunch of men who don't think a woman can be president, but also a large group of women who believe the same way.

classicman2
10-16-05, 08:45 PM
There are an even larger group of men and women who will vote for a woman.

I think there's a reasonable chance we'll have a woman president beginning January, 2009.

BTW: I have very serious doubts that it will be Hillary. If the normal voter demographics are in place in 2008; and, assuming there's not overwhelming issue, she won't be elected.

BigPete
10-16-05, 09:07 PM
My memory tells me that Giuliani was set to soundly defeat Hillary in the senate race until he dropped out because of prostate cancer. He was replaced by some other guy who didn't do too well. It is my recollection that she got the job based more on circumstance than anything else. Does anyone remember differently?

littlefuzzy
10-16-05, 09:08 PM
There are an even larger group of men and women who will vote for a woman.

I think there's a reasonable chance we'll have a woman president beginning January, 2009.

BTW: I have very serious doubts that it will be Hillary. If the normal voter demographics are in place in 2008; and, assuming there's not overwhelming issue, she won't be elected.

Condi?

Jason
10-16-05, 09:10 PM
My memory tells me that Giuliani was set to soundly defeat Hillary in the senate race until he dropped out because of prostate cancer. He was replaced by some other guy who didn't do too well. It is my recollection that she got the job based more on circumstance than anything else. Does anyone remember differently?

I remember that he was more or less even with her. He was nowhere near "soundly defeating" her. If that had been the case, Lazio would have done better, because his entire campaign was based on "I'm not Hillary."

DVD Polizei
10-16-05, 10:00 PM
You're not juding Hillary's support by bumper stickers, are you?

Believe it or not - there are Democrats who live in Utah.

Yes, and these families only have 5 children versus the usual 10-15. :D

DVD Polizei
10-16-05, 10:04 PM
Condi?

I WANT CONDI

I know a gal who's tough but sweet
She's so fine, she's sexier than Hillary
She's got everything that I desire
Sets the political party on fire

I WANT CONDI, I WANT CONDI

Go to see her when the sun goes down
Ain't no finer girl who's brown
You're my girl, just what the doctor ordered
So sweet, you make my voter card water...

I WANT CONDI, I WANT CONDI

JasonF
10-17-05, 12:23 AM
My memory tells me that Giuliani was set to soundly defeat Hillary in the senate race until he dropped out because of prostate cancer. He was replaced by some other guy who didn't do too well. It is my recollection that she got the job based more on circumstance than anything else. Does anyone remember differently?

You're misremembering. Giuliani and Clinton ran pretty even in the polls.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11373.xml?ReleaseID=609

I believe Clinton was even slightly ahead when Giuliani dropped out.

Similarly, Rick Lazio ran pretty even with Clinton in the polls, and had the full backing of the GOP, which poured a lot of support into defeating the dreaded Clinton.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11373.xml?ReleaseID=622

classicman2
10-17-05, 07:09 AM
NY matters in the Senate race in New York.

NY doesn't matter in the presidential race.

Again - if Juiliani expects to run for president, he better switch parties. It's a little difficult for a candidate who is pro-abortion, pro-gun control, and pro-affirmative action to receive the Republican nomination. ;)

To be fair: It's a little difficult for a candidate who is pro-gun and opposed to affirmative action to receive the Democratic nomination. It's impossible for anyone who is pro-life to receive the Democratic nomination. ;)

Nesbit
10-17-05, 07:59 AM
Condi said again on Meet the Press yesterday that she has no interest in being the President or ever running for any elected position. Sorry folks not gonna happen.

X
10-17-05, 08:03 AM
Again - if Juiliani expects to run for president, he better switch parties.Not a stickler for accuracy today? ;)

classicman2
10-17-05, 08:12 AM
Condi said again on Meet the Press yesterday that she has no interest in being the President or ever running for any elected position. Sorry folks not gonna happen.

There are a number of people who have said the same thing.

Somehow, they later changed their minds.

Nesbit
10-17-05, 08:28 AM
Yeah but how many times have you ever seen Condi says yes or no to anything? It is always a three or four sentence long answer on the most basic questions.

classicman2
10-17-05, 08:31 AM
I think very very few politicians (and Dr. Rice is a politician) don't want to be president.

Colin Powell wanted to be president. The problem was that he didn't want to 'put forth the effort' that it would take to achieve that. (side note: I don't believe he had a chance of being elected). I don't believe Ms. Rice suffers from that problem.

Nesbit
10-17-05, 08:36 AM
What has she ever done to show you that she's likely to run for president? She's never run for any office or shown any interest in doing so.

classicman2
10-17-05, 08:49 AM
She's been the National Security Advisor and the Secretary of State.

She's clearly indicated she has a foreign policy. She probably believes she can conduct it better than anyone else.

Granted - she would have to familiarize herself with the domestic political scene & develop domestic policies. She most probably already has positions of those issues.

BTW: The former governors who became president had the same problem - on it was in foreign policy where they lacking.

DVD Polizei
10-17-05, 09:04 AM
Hillary will most likely be a VP candidate after losing the Presidential candidacy. In a VP position, that would be interesting. Having a woman VP would be interesting. I wonder if any political party is ready to allow a woman at such a level.

classicman2
10-17-05, 09:07 AM
Hillary will most likely be a VP candidate after losing the Presidential candidacy. In a VP position, that would be interesting. Having a woman VP would be interesting. I wonder if any political party is ready to allow a woman at such a level.

And just which Democrat do you believe can beat Hillary for the presidential nomination?

There are not any on the horizon that I see.

CRM114
10-17-05, 09:07 AM
I asked before....has a Sec of State ever successfully run for President?

Rice is clear. She is no politician. I don't believe she'd seek to be one. She's too smart.

classicman2
10-17-05, 09:14 AM
I most assuredly believe Rice is a politician.

Simply because she hasn't run for office before doesn't alter that.

CRM114
10-17-05, 09:30 AM
I most assuredly believe Rice is a politician.

Simply because she hasn't run for office before doesn't alter that.

Unless she gets some sort of ego trip, I don't see it at all.

mosquitobite
10-17-05, 09:34 AM
Hillary will most likely be a VP candidate after losing the Presidential candidacy. In a VP position, that would be interesting. Having a woman VP would be interesting. I wonder if any political party is ready to allow a woman at such a level.

Well the Dems were ready in the 80s. Ferraro.

DVD Polizei
10-17-05, 09:35 AM
And just which Democrat do you believe can beat Hillary for the presidential nomination?

There are not any on the horizon that I see.

I have no idea. It's too early to tell.

Th0r S1mpson
10-17-05, 10:37 AM
It's kind of like how most people knew Sharon Stone would do a movie like Sliver after she did Basic Instinct.

JasonF
10-17-05, 10:40 AM
I asked before....has a Sec of State ever successfully run for President?

James Monroe and John Quincy Adams.

I assume we're not counting Thomas Jefferson, Martin Van Buren, and James Buchanan (who served as Sec. State prior to being elected president, but were not serving at the times of their election).

But when was the last time a Secretary of State even ran for president? I think the last one was Blaine, so you have to go back quite a bit.

Nesbit
10-17-05, 10:45 AM
It's kind of like how most people knew Sharon Stone would do a movie like Sliver after she did Basic Instinct.

Actually it's nothing like that. She's said she will not run and it wasn't a, "It's not something I'm considering right now" no. It was, "I don't know how many ways I can say no." Then when Russert pushed her she said "No" and then stated that she never has run for any office and has no interest in doing so. On top of that Condi isn't known as someone to just say yes or no to ANY question. She is not running.

Th0r S1mpson
10-17-05, 10:53 AM
Actually it's nothing like that. She's said she will not run and it wasn't a, "It's not something I'm considering right now" no. It was, "I don't know how many ways I can say no." Then when Russert pushed her she said "No" and then stated that she never has run for any office and has no interest in doing so. On top of that Condi isn't known as someone to just say yes or no to ANY question. She is not running.
:hscratch: I was talking about Hilary. :confused:

I've already taken the strong stance in the past that there's no chance Condi is running.

VinVega
10-17-05, 11:03 AM
She's been the National Security Advisor and the Secretary of State.

She's clearly indicated she has a foreign policy. She probably believes she can conduct it better than anyone else.

Granted - she would have to familiarize herself with the domestic political scene & develop domestic policies. She most probably already has positions of those issues.

BTW: The former governors who became president had the same problem - on it was in foreign policy where they lacking.
She would have been Defense Secretary if Rummy had resigned. She may still get that spot, should he resign over the next year or so. She's definitely being groomed.

kvrdave
10-17-05, 11:06 AM
I asked before....has a Sec of State ever successfully run for President?

Rice is clear. She is no politician. I don't believe she'd seek to be one. She's too smart.

That's kind of a tricky question. Similarly, when was the last time the wife of a former president successfully ran for President? Beyond that, when was the last successful run by a Senator? JFK?

Nesbit
10-17-05, 11:17 AM
:hscratch: I was talking about Hilary. :confused:

I've already taken the strong stance in the past that there's no chance Condi is running.

Well then we agree. What is there for us to argue about?

classicman2
10-17-05, 12:06 PM
Vin Vega is correct. She wanted the DOD Secretary job; and, if Rumsfeld would have resigned, she would have gotten it.

I believe Bush may be grooming her for 2008.

I've already taken the strong stance in the past that there's no chance Condi is running.

It's probably not the first time that you've taken the wrong strong stance; and, it most probably won't be the last. ;)

CRM114
10-17-05, 12:19 PM
That's kind of a tricky question. Similarly, when was the last time the wife of a former president successfully ran for President? Beyond that, when was the last successful run by a Senator? JFK?

Its different. SoS is not an elected office. Its a Diplomat.

classicman2
10-17-05, 12:27 PM
BTW: CRM114 - when was the last time that a sitting senator won the presidency?

Answer quickly - don't look it up. ;)

Nesbit
10-17-05, 12:32 PM
Kennedy?

Geofferson
10-17-05, 01:59 PM
Just heard Dick Morris on a radio show plugging his new book:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0060839139.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

mosquitobite
10-17-05, 02:09 PM
If Condi is anything like Bush (fiscally reprehensible) I could care less about any other trait she may have.

I'm voting for gridlock if the Republicans don't get their spending back under control :)

JasonF
10-17-05, 02:14 PM
Kennedy?

That's a common misconception, but Kennedy was no longer an active MTV VJ at the time she was elected President.

Wait ... what was the question?

classicman2
10-17-05, 02:14 PM
If Condi is anything like Bush (fiscally reprehensible) I could care less about any other trait she may have.

I'm voting for gridlock if the Republicans don't get their spending back under control :)

Gridlock - yeah, that's really the right way to go. :rolleyes:

VinVega
10-17-05, 02:24 PM
Gridlock - yeah, that's really the right way to go. :rolleyes:
Would it really be gridlock? Wouldn't it just require more compromise on the part of both parties? That's not such a bad thing, although I don't think any pork is going to be cut out of the spending. Sorry mosquito. ;)

mosquitobite
10-17-05, 02:32 PM
Nope. I mean gridlock. Shut the whole damn government down! :lol: To hell with compromise! rotfl

mseang
10-17-05, 03:52 PM
I seriously believe this country needs a break from the Bush's and the Clinton's. If either Jeb or Hillary were to be elected, we could face the potential of being ruled by only two families for 28 years. Then there are obviously other Clintons and Bush's to follow them. I believe we need to break this chain now before it is too late.

I believe the Democrats will have someone come out of the woodwork after the 2006 elections. It will need to be a fresh personality with a new idea. Not someone totally unknown, but not who you would have expected.

As for the Republicans, Jeb is the first choice, but after the Schiavo fiasco, this will be an uphill battle starting with his re-election and the Florida Senate elections next fall. The powers that be will only allow an insider (PNAC) to recieve the nomination. Frist and Delay are out at this time, but this could change depending on their impending legal troubles. This would appear to leave Condi Rice (damaged goods) and Dick Cheney (too old and angry). The Republicans may need a fresh face as well, at this point I say bring back Newt.

classicman2
10-17-05, 04:00 PM
I believe the Democrats will have someone come out of the woodwork after the 2006 elections. It will need to be a fresh personality with a new idea. Not someone totally unknown, but not who you would have expected.

I don't. What you see now is what you'll see in 2008.

Hillary is very popular with the Democratic base. No one on the horizon has anywhere near her popularity with the Democratic primary voter. Add to that - she has great name recognition. A winning combination as I see it - at least for the nomination.

The general election - a different story. As there is no one who excites the Democratic base like Hillary, there is also no one that will unite the Repubs like Hillary.

As for the Repubs - Jeb Bush has no chance for the nomination.

BTW: Assuming Iraq turns out o.k., tell me how Dr. Rice is damaged goods.

Nesbit
10-17-05, 04:24 PM
Assuming Iraq turns out o.k. SHES STILL NOT RUNNING.

I love the picture of both of them on the cover of that book though.

mseang
10-17-05, 04:34 PM
BTW: Assuming Iraq turns out o.k., tell me how Dr. Rice is damaged goods.

It is too late for the Iraq policy to turn out o.k.

O.K. is not hat we promised anyway.

In my personal opinion, the adminsitration does not even believe she can handle the SOS position as they called Karen Hughes in to help her. Yes, that is why Karen Hughes was in the middle east.

But leaving my personal feelings out of it, she has no credibility and is apparently unable to distinguish the truth from fiction.

For starters...

On Pre-9/11 Intelligence

CLAIM: "I don't think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile." – National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 5/16/02

FACT: On August 6, 2001, the President personally “received a one-and-a-half page briefing advising him that Osama bin Laden was capable of a major strike against the US, and that the plot could include the hijacking of an American airplane." In July 2001, the Administration was also told that terrorists had explored using airplanes as missiles. [Source: NBC, 9/10/02; LA Times, 9/27/01]

CLAIM: “The fact of the matter is [that] the administration focused on this before 9/11.” – National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: President Bush and Vice President Cheney’s counterterrorism task force, which was created in May, never convened one single meeting. The President himself admitted that "I didn't feel the sense of urgency" about terrorism before 9/11. [Source: Washington Post, 1/20/02; Bob Woodward’s “Bush at War”]

On the Irag Invasion...

CLAIM: "Not a single National Security Council principal at that meeting recommended to the president going after Iraq. The president thought about it. The next day he told me Iraq is to the side." – National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, 3/22/04

FACT: According to the Washington Post, "six days after the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, President Bush signed a 2-and-a-half-page document marked 'TOP SECRET'" that "directed the Pentagon to begin planning military options for an invasion of Iraq." This is corroborated by a CBS News, which reported on 9/4/02 that five hours after the 9/11 attacks, "Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq." [Source: Washington Post, 1/12/03. CBS News, 9/4/02]

I can go on and on if you would like, there are just too many items like these that will haunt her if she ever decides to run. The rest of the World does not trust her, why would the American people.

classicman2
10-17-05, 04:46 PM
Of course it's not too late. What are you smoking? If violence (especially against
American troops subsides signficantly, the price of gasoline goes down to $1.75 per gallon, crude oil prices return to $30 per barrel, the economy is going along pretty good, etc.) all of the rest of the stuff you posted won't matter a damn bit. Only the anti-war folks & Bush bashers will care. And, there are not nearly enough of them to elect a president.

It's actually not whether Iraq turns out o.k. It's the public perception of how Iraq is going that counts.

BTW: I would imagine the pentagon during this administration has planned (talking papers) for the invasion of a number of countries, including Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia, etc. - just as prior administrations have so planned.

BTW: You're aware that warnings were given to the previous administration, aren't you?

mseang
10-17-05, 05:18 PM
I am a non-smoker, I prefer to educate myself before I post my opinions and thoughts. I post facts and references and you post pipe dreams.

I agree about public perception, but I am also a realist. We do not have the tropps available to stabilze that region. It will never happen. This adminstration had no plan and still does not. Whatever the end result, they will atempt to spin it in their favor.

A constitution does not a democracy make, just look at the Philipines. (http://epress.anu.edu.au/mdap/mobile_devices/ch04s02.html). There are two ways to create a Democracy, one is to win the hearts and the minds of the people as is currently underway in the Philipines, 100 years later. It is not a simple endeavor. The other method is to destroy all of the people who do not believe in your plan and institute your Government when rebellion has been squashed. This method really does not meet up with the prinicples of democracy.

Warnings are given to every administration, this administration chose to completely ignore them. That is where the difference lies.

I am nore than willing to debate and take your ideas and opinions into consideration, but please post some supporting details so that I can see where your ideas originate.

Nesbit
10-17-05, 05:32 PM
OOOOH SNAP! I like the new guy...

classicman2
10-17-05, 05:35 PM
Yeah, tell us about the 'facts' you posted about the DeLay matter. :rollyeyes:

BTW: Whether a democracy is created in Iraq doesn't really matter that much. There is hardly any chance that a western type democracy, such as envisioned by Bush, will be created. We may not like the other type of democracy that is created.

Iraq is a success for the U. S. if order is basically restored, the country doesn't threaten its neighbors, a modicum of liberty is brought to the Iraqi people, the free flow of Persian Gulf oil continues, etc. A western style full-blown democracy doesn't have to happen for Iraq to be a foreign policy success for the U. S.

mseang
10-17-05, 05:45 PM
Yeah, tell us about the 'facts' you posted about the DeLay matter.

You attempt to insult my intelligence, but fail to provide anything to back-up your claims. Provide me with facts and evidence and I will gladly admit I am wrong, insult me as an attempt to discredit me and no one has learned anything.

I believe you should recheck that thread. Until you present me with facts and references, both of these discussions are finished.

classicman2
10-17-05, 05:58 PM
Once again - read what you posted in response to what bhk posted.

Ethics Rules

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhk
So has anyone given a good answer as to why the dems don't have the rule?



That would be because the ethics committee is made up of Democrats and Republicans in order to set the ethics rules for the whole body not just one party. We must strive to offer accurate information at all times in this forum. Please do a little research (1 Google search - 10 seconds) before providing misinformation.

This rule was originally put in place by the Democrats when they were in power and the Republicans attempted to get rid of the rule because of impending indictments against their leader, Tom Delay. (They have known this was coming for quite a while. Kind of makes you wonder about his innocence...) Mr. Delay is essential for furthering their agenda within the House and losing him will increase the difficulty of achieving this agenda. Like him or not he is a major reason that this administration has been successful.

bhk was talking about the Republican conference rule that has existed basically since Jim Wright. The Democratic caucus in the house doesn't have such a rule.

That's what I responded to.

from me:Iraq is a success for the U. S. if order is basically restored, the country doesn't threaten its neighbors, a modicum of liberty is brought to the Iraqi people, the free flow of Persian Gulf oil continues, etc. A western style full-blown democracy doesn't have to happen for Iraq to be a foreign policy success for the U. S.

If those things I outlined come to fruition, do you consider that a foreign policy success for the United States in Iraq?

Nesbit
10-17-05, 05:59 PM
So why do people say Hilary Clinton has a chance in 2008?

Grimfarrow
10-17-05, 06:00 PM
Iraq is a success for the U. S. if order is basically restored,

That's a huge, gigantic if.

Iraq today reminds me of India before the English left. Once the colonial power is gone, it's a matter of time before each group carves out a chunk and declare it their own. Which, of course, means that civil war is inevitable.

Kurds, Shiites, Sunnis - NONE of them are loyal to, or particularly that interested, in keeping this facade of a united country. What good is it to them when they stand to lose so much with a government that may not even represent them, especially when theiy're in the minority? Even with this "constitution", each group will never be satisfied, and it's now just a waiting game until the US pulls out, so they can get to the business of fighting for their own state where each of them can be their own boss.

The hatred and bad blood between the ethnic groups are too deep and too old for any half-hearted US attempt at a so-called democracy to prevail. As Yugoslavia recently showed us, national unity in a multi-ethnic country also disappear when a dictatorial ruling power goes away.

classicman2
10-17-05, 06:02 PM
I've said a number of times that Hillary, unless she stumbles very badly, is a shoo-in for the Democratic nomination, because she is thought of highly by much of the Democratic base and she has the highest name recognition of any of the other Democrats who may seek the nomination.

Her chances in the general election are not nearly so good, however. Why? Because of the current voting demographics which favors the Repubs.

classicman2
10-17-05, 06:07 PM
That's a huge, gigantic if.

Everything is iffy in that part of the world.

However, I do believe that restoration of order is possible. Of course there's always going to be some violence, some attacks levelled against the authority in the country.

Grimfarrow
10-17-05, 06:20 PM
Maybe it's due to my pessimistic nature, but I believe that the closest the US will get to restoring order will be a couple-months lull in violence, making it seem like things are in ordnung. But once the US leaves, it will be hell in Iraq. Without at least another decade of occupation, there is no way order will be restored. And we all know that will never happen.

CRM114
10-17-05, 06:29 PM
Just heard Dick Morris on a radio show plugging his new book:


I don't know what's more shocking, Dick Morris plugging a book or Dick Morris smearing Hillary. :lol:

CRM114
10-17-05, 06:30 PM
If Condi is anything like Bush (fiscally reprehensible) I could care less about any other trait she may have.

I'm voting for gridlock if the Republicans don't get their spending back under control :)

Hell, maybe Condi is a DEMOCRAT. -eek-

Condi can convince me. What we need in the Whitehouse is a smart woman.

CRM114
10-17-05, 06:34 PM
I am a non-smoker, I prefer to educate myself before I post my opinions and thoughts. I post facts and references and you post pipe dreams.

I'd have to agree with the pipe dreams part. $1.75 classicman? rotfl Surely you jest.

classicman2
10-17-05, 07:01 PM
Maybe it's due to my pessimistic nature, but I believe that the closest the US will get to restoring order will be a couple-months lull in violence, making it seem like things are in ordnung. But once the US leaves, it will be hell in Iraq. Without at least another decade of occupation, there is no way order will be restored. And we all know that will never happen.

I don't see that the major responsibility of restoration of order will be a U. S. function. I see that as much more of an Iraqi function.

The time has long since passed when the U. S. could kick ass & take names to restore order. Perhaps we were in too big a rush for the Iraqis to assume control.

monkeyboy
10-17-05, 07:32 PM
I can see a scenario where Hillary could give a Rep. Nominee a run for his money. I think America would elect a woman for president. A white woman, anyway. There's no way in hell America would vote in a Black person for president. IMHO. I think we'll see a Latino president before we see a Black president.

classicman2
10-17-05, 07:43 PM
I believe the American people would vote for the right black woman.

I don't believe the American people are ready to vote for the any black man.

VinVega
10-17-05, 09:40 PM
So why do people say Hilary Clinton has a chance in 2008?
She's got the most bling, or the most potential to get it. All the rich contributors to the DNC are ready to line up and fork over that cash. This is what will kill a guy like Joe Biden. All the money will already be committed to an all out Clinton run. Whether she will blow herself out of the water by unifying a fractured Republican base remains to be seen, but just the fact that she will have all the cash puts her in a very nice position for 2008.

Th0r S1mpson
10-17-05, 10:30 PM
So why do people say Hilary Clinton has a chance in 2008?
That's worthy of a thread of its own. You should start one!

monkeyboy
10-18-05, 12:47 AM
I believe the American people would vote for the right black woman.

I don't believe the American people are ready to vote for the any black man.

Really? Wow. I'd see Colin Powell as a much more successful candidate than Condi. A black woman just has 2 strikes against her right off the bat. I'd think a black woman would be pretty far down on the list of potential minority candidates. America is still so frickin racist. I know that some people didn't vote for Gore because he picked a Jew for a running mate. If Gore picked just about anyone else for a running mate, we're in a whole different situation right now. Sad but true.

X
10-18-05, 12:49 AM
I believe the American people would vote for the right black woman.

I don't believe the American people are ready to vote for the any black man.I think that's probably right. Less threatening.

X
10-18-05, 12:50 AM
Really? Wow. I'd see Colin Powell as a much more successful candidate than Condi. A black woman just has 2 strikes against her right off the bat. I'd think a black woman would be pretty far down on the list of potential minority candidates. America is still so frickin racist. I know that some people didn't vote for Gore because he picked a Jew for a running mate. If Gore picked just about anyone else for a running mate, we're in a whole different situation right now. Sad but true.You mean Florida would have gone to Gore then?

Geofferson
10-18-05, 09:09 AM
You mean Florida would have gone to Gore then?
:lol: Pretty much shot that theory down.

Anyway, there definitely is a circle who wouldn't vote for Condi because she's A) a woman and B) black. So what? There was a circle of people that didn't vote for JFK because he was Catholic. There are always going to be racists and bigots wherever you go. Thing is though I don't think there are enough to prevent Condi from winning.

monkeyboy
10-18-05, 01:06 PM
You mean Florida would have gone to Gore then?

Nah, Gore won Florida WITH Lieby, and he would have won without him too. -wink-

Pharoh
10-18-05, 10:44 PM
I don't believe them yet, but if the scuttlebutt turns out to be true Ms. Rice has the inside track for the nomination to herself.


It will be a mistake.

Th0r S1mpson
10-19-05, 12:55 AM
I don't believe them yet, but if the scuttlebutt turns out to be true Ms. Rice has the inside track for the nomination to herself.


It will be a mistake.
Did you see her latest appearance on Meet the Press? She's out. She doesn't know how many more ways to say it. She never even ran for office in the student body. No interest doesn't mean no though. "No." But does "no" mean "no?" I can see her campaign slogan now.

Sometimes 'no' means 'yes.'

Nobody could come up with a better campaign slogan for the first female president.

classicman2
10-19-05, 06:08 AM
Did you see her latest appearance on Meet the Press? She's out. She doesn't know how many more ways to say it. She never even ran for office in the student body. No interest doesn't mean no though. "No." But does "no" mean "no?" I can see her campaign slogan now.

Hogwash!!

Nesbit
10-19-05, 08:21 AM
I would vote for anybody whose campaign slogan is, "Sometimes no means yes."

Pharoh
10-19-05, 08:26 AM
Did you see her latest appearance on Meet the Press? She's out. She doesn't know how many more ways to say it. She never even ran for office in the student body. No interest doesn't mean no though. "No." But does "no" mean "no?" I can see her campaign slogan now.

Sometimes 'no' means 'yes.'

Nobody could come up with a better campaign slogan for the first female president.



The scuttlebutt I was refering to was the notion that Ms. Rice will soon become the Vice President of the United States. That could very well change the dynamics just a bit.

classicman2
10-19-05, 08:28 AM
Have we ever had a VP serving as both VP & Secretary of Defense?

I understand she'll give up the Secretary of State job when she gets the other two.

:)

X
10-19-05, 10:18 AM
The scuttlebutt I was refering to was the notion that Ms. Rice will soon become the Vice President of the United States. That could very well change the dynamics just a bit.I heard that strongly denied yesterday. However that's the way I always thought it would have to work for her to successfully run next time.

classicman2
10-19-05, 10:36 AM
Youl folks go right on belittingly Dr. Rice's chance.

When she's the Repub candidate in 2008 - you can say, 'classicman told me so.' I should have listened to him. ;)

Pharoh
10-19-05, 10:36 AM
I heard that strongly denied yesterday. However that's the way I always thought it would have to work for her to successfully run next time.



Yep. Even then, I am not so certain it would be a recipe for success.

X
10-19-05, 10:39 AM
Yep. Even then, I am not so certain it would be a recipe for success.Well, it would probably be successful to the point of being considered a viable candidate and probably getting the nomination.

Maybe. If Bush-fatigue isn't too great.

classicman2
10-19-05, 10:57 AM
Ask the people who really know - the oddsmakers. ;)

Red Dog,

What's the odds on Dr. Rice now?

Dropping - I'll bet.

Red Dog
10-19-05, 04:40 PM
The scuttlebutt I was refering to was the notion that Ms. Rice will soon become the Vice President of the United States. That could very well change the dynamics just a bit.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051018/18whwatch.htm

Red Dog
10-19-05, 04:42 PM
Ask the people who really know - the oddsmakers. ;)

Red Dog,

What's the odds on Dr. Rice now?

Dropping - I'll bet.


Holding at 25-1.

chowderhead
10-19-05, 10:19 PM
:lol: Pretty much shot that theory down.

Anyway, there definitely is a circle who wouldn't vote for Condi because she's A) a woman and B) black. So what? There was a circle of people that didn't vote for JFK because he was Catholic. There are always going to be racists and bigots wherever you go. Thing is though I don't think there are enough to prevent Condi from winning.

I would also add that she has never been married. There are a lot of people who would question why a 50 year old woman never got married. I am not saying it is right but Condi Rice has some negatives going for her besides her more moderate social stances with the Republican base.

Back to the OP's quesstion. Why do people say Hillary Clinton has a chance in 2008? Because this will be an election for the first time in a LONG time that no sitting President or Vice President will be running on either side. The field is wide open and it will be a clean shot at the Presidency.

Look at the electoral map, Hillary needs to carry all of Kerry's states and one or two others, namely Ohio or Florida. Or, she could go with the Southwest strategy of NM, Colorado, Nevada. The math is there. She has the shot to win. I personally feel some others have a better shot but Hillary will be the candidate to beat on the Democratic side.

Geofferson
10-20-05, 09:15 AM
I would also add that she has never been married. There are a lot of people who would question why a 50 year old woman never got married. I am not saying it is right but Condi Rice has some negatives going for her besides her more moderate social stances with the Republican base.

This is a valid point for sure.

classicman2
10-20-05, 09:17 AM
:lol:

Geofferson
10-20-05, 09:22 AM
How long has it been since we elected a bachelor president? 100 years?

edit: I looked it up:

James Buchanan in 1856 is America's only elected bachelor President

dick_grayson
10-20-05, 10:00 AM
yeah, I'd doubt that a bachelor (or -ette) could become President simply because the media would go apeshit over it. People think that marrying and starting a family is normal and therefore anyone who doesn't fall in line has something wrong with them. Widowed, maybe as it might get some sympathy, but todays political parties will only put their support behind a family man/woman.

X
10-20-05, 10:07 AM
Interesting choice...

Rice with no husband (or known "partner") or Clinton with a philandering husband.

Bandoman
10-20-05, 10:14 AM
Well, if Rice and Bill Clinton got together...

Nesbit
10-20-05, 10:35 AM
Youl folks go right on belittingly Dr. Rice's chance.

When she's the Repub candidate in 2008 - you can say, 'classicman told me so.' I should have listened to him. ;)

No one is belittingly her chances. I think she would beat Hillary. But she makes the decision on whether or not she is going to run not you.

classicman2
10-20-05, 10:41 AM
My point is - she hasn't made the definite decision not to run.

Morris argues, and I tend to agree, that she will feel compelled to run, because what's been put forward so far (Guiliani & McCain) 1. Can't win the nomination; 2. Can't beat Hillary if divine intervention happened and either one won the nomination.

Geofferson
10-20-05, 11:16 AM
So are both George Allen and Mitt Romney officially out of the running?

Goldblum
10-20-05, 11:21 AM
Well, if Rice and Bill Clinton got together...
Who's to say they haven't? :eyebrow:

classicman2
10-20-05, 12:12 PM
So are both George Allen and Mitt Romney officially out of the running?

Yeah! I expect so.

The Romney 'name' disqualifies him.

CRM114
10-20-05, 12:26 PM
yeah, I'd doubt that a bachelor (or -ette) could become President simply because the media would go apeshit over it. People think that marrying and starting a family is normal and therefore anyone who doesn't fall in line has something wrong with them. Widowed, maybe as it might get some sympathy, but todays political parties will only put their support behind a family man/woman.

Which is more understandable than not electing someone who is not religious.

CRM114
10-20-05, 12:27 PM
My point is - she hasn't made the definite decision not to run.

Morris argues, and I tend to agree, that she will feel compelled to run, because what's been put forward so far (Guiliani & McCain) 1. Can't win the nomination; 2. Can't beat Hillary if divine intervention happened and either one won the nomination.

You've been around the block. A diplomat - the Secretary of State - is nota politician. Rice is an academic. Why would she bother kissing babies and kissing ass?

CRM114
10-20-05, 12:31 PM
An unmarried, black female. Bwahahahahaaa!!!!! The more I think about it, the more absurd it sounds.

(But like I said, if Rice let's her freak flag fly and declares her unbridled liberalness, I would LOVE to vote for a woman. :) )

classicman2
10-20-05, 12:47 PM
You've been around the block. A diplomat - the Secretary of State - is nota politician. Rice is an academic. Why would she bother kissing babies and kissing ass?

Because she's also a politician.

Need I remind you that other academics have been politicians - Woodrow Wilson comes to mind.

classicman2
10-20-05, 12:48 PM
(But like I said, if Rice let's her freak flag fly and declares her unbridled liberalness, I would LOVE to vote for a woman.

It's folks who hold liberal views like you that doom the Democratic Party to an eternity in the minority.

B.A.
10-20-05, 12:56 PM
How often have I heard that said?Grant's been out of office for quite some time, so I reckon you have heard that a lot.

Th0r S1mpson
10-20-05, 01:01 PM
Cman, I'm just curious... do you think Rice being "compelled to run" is what will genuinely happen, or that she's already compelled to run and that's just the angle that is being played?

CRM114
10-20-05, 01:25 PM
It's folks who hold liberal views like you that doom the Democratic Party to an eternity in the minority.

Then so be it. I'm obviously not a Democrat then. I don't want Republican-lite.

classicman2
10-20-05, 01:35 PM
Cman, I'm just curious... do you think Rice being "compelled to run" is what will genuinely happen, or that she's already compelled to run and that's just the angle that is being played?

As I've said before - I know of very few politicians who wouldn't like to be president. Ms. Rice is a politician.

Geofferson
10-20-05, 01:39 PM
Who was the last candidate to not have held an elective office? Eisenhower?

I wonder how big of a factor (if at all) that will be.

Y2K Falcon
10-21-05, 11:12 AM
My search under the word "Cheney" didn't bring up a thread even remotely on this topic, so I thought I would start a new thread.

My liberal cow-orker, who reads some pretty extreme if not questionable webpages all day whispered to me on Wednesday about how [b]Cheney is just about to step down from his office as Veep because he "was cornered" and "caught red-handed" and some such description like that. I have learned that speaking with him politically is pretty pointless, so I usually just stare blankly and nod.

Can anyone summarize/backup/shoot down this claim?

classicman2
10-21-05, 11:15 AM
There's have been rumors for months about Cheney stepping down.

Reason(s) is not as your friend said.

Real reason: Bush wants to give his job to Condi. He's grooming her. :)

wendersfan
10-21-05, 11:16 AM
"Cow-orker"? I thought cow-orking was banned in Texas. :D

It's probably wish fulfillment. I mean, exactly how many members of the current administration have so much as acknowledged any wrong-doing? I would think that it would take a criminal conviction to get one of those guys to step down, and even then it might not happen.

kvrdave
10-21-05, 11:16 AM
I have always figured he would step down so that the Republicans would have a VP that would run for the presidency.

As for being caught "red handed," I think that is just wishful thinking because a lot of far left think he has so many skeletons in his closet.

Y2K Falcon
10-21-05, 11:23 AM
Here is his most mainstream source, complete with pic apparently taken by the Fox Sport Mound Cam:

White House Watch: Cheney resignation rumors fly

Posted 10/18/05
By Paul Bedard

Sparked by today's Washington Post story that suggests Vice President Cheney's office is involved in the Plame-CIA spy link investigation, government officials and advisers passed around rumors that the vice president might step aside and that President Bush would elevate Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

"It's certainly an interesting but I still think highly doubtful scenario," said a Bush insider. "And if that should happen," added the official, "there will undoubtedly be those who believe the whole thing was orchestrated – another brilliant Machiavellian move by the VP."

Said another Bush associate of the rumor, "Yes. This is not good." The rumor spread so fast that some Republicans by late morning were already drawing up reasons why Rice couldn't get the job or run for president in 2008.

"Isn't she pro-choice?" asked a key Senate Republican aide. Many White House insiders, however, said the Post story and reports that the investigation was coming to a close had officials instead more focused on who would be dragged into the affair and if top aides would be indicted and forced to resign.

"Folks on the inside and near inside are holding their breath and wondering what's next," said a Bush adviser. But, he added, they aren't focused on the future of the vice president. "Not that, at least not seriously," he said.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/051018/18whwatch.htm

Y2K Falcon
10-21-05, 11:42 AM
Now that the thread has been merged, in my defense, before the merge/title change, Cheney was not mentioned in the thread. ;)

DrRingDing
10-22-05, 04:36 AM
more for the dem side:

10/13/05
Don't Count Al Gore Out
Al Gore's declaration this week in Stockholm that he doesn't plan to run for president has done nothing to dampen moves by friends and allies to talk him into a 2008 race. In fact, they tell Whispers, it's hardened their belief that he wants to run. But, they said, his comments suggest that he isn't interested in a traditional bid for the presidency: He wants to be begged to run. "I'm not discouraged at all by what he said," said one of the Gore advocates Whispers talked with. This week, Gore was in Stockholm blasting the Bush administration and talking about his political plans. He said: "I have absolutely no plans and not expectations of ever being a candidate again." Allies said that left the door wide open to being wooed. "He doesn't want to be embarrassed and he won't just slowly tip-toe into the race. He wants the whole thing set up for him and that will be easy to do," said our tipster. How? Those advocating a Gore candidacy believe that he already has the issues and a top leadership team in place. But they feel he needs to be convinced that there are enough donors not likely to back Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton that would move to his side to make his bid unbeatable. That, said the advocates, is their first job and they predicted that there are scores of high-tech, media and corporate donors willing to step forward to help Gore.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/archive/october2005.htm

dick_grayson
11-03-05, 09:52 AM
to avoid record # threadcraps, I didn't start a new thread.

anyway, interesting interview "with Larry Wilkerson, former chief of staff for former Secretary of State Colin Powell, about the influence of Vice President Dick Cheney's office over Iraq war policy. Wilkerson claims the vice president and others bypassed the rest of the government to control key decisions."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4987598

click "listen" to hear the interview

natesfortune
11-03-05, 10:28 AM
to avoid record # threadcraps, I didn't start a new thread.

anyway, interesting interview "with Larry Wilkerson, former chief of staff for former Secretary of State Colin Powell, about the influence of Vice President Dick Cheney's office over Iraq war policy. Wilkerson claims the vice president and others bypassed the rest of the government to control key decisions."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4987598

click "listen" to hear the interview

This is a funny "story", I've always thought. He talks about how the "State Department became non-existent" a few times - which is really what he's so mad about.

The people at the State Department are career beaurocrats - there through multiple administrations. Pure government workers through and through - very liberal, and very hostile to Republican administrations(just as Reagan), and very set in their beaurocratic way of doing things.

So along comes the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES in the Executive Branch of our government, and they DARE to act like it and bypass the liberal beaurocrats in the State Department and make a decision about War themselves!

GASP!

And that's a "Cabal" - our elected Executive representatives, including the Commander in Chief.

What a joke.

Pwman
11-04-05, 05:41 PM
Because Democrats love a strong independant woman. So they will take one who has only gotten where she is by riding the coattails of a man, and try to pass her off as one. :)
Of course the Republicans have no one fits that description Cough* Elizabeth Dole *Cough

BKenn01
11-04-05, 06:16 PM
She's the boogie man. Run for your lives!

Ooga booga!

Scares the Hell out of me!

Laser Movies
11-05-05, 06:49 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-clin05.html


Clinton says wife would be better president

November 5, 2005

JERUSALEM -- Former President Bill Clinton said in an interview Friday that he thinks his wife would do a better job than he did in the nation's highest office.

New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has not said whether she plans to run in 2008. Nonetheless, her husband told Israel's Channel Two television that her experience as first lady would help make her a strong president.

''In some ways, she would be [better] because of what we did together,'' he said from New York. ''First, she has the Senate experience I didn't have. Second, she would have had the eight years in the White House.

''I think she wouldn't make as many mistakes because, you know, we're older and more mature, and she is far more experienced now in all the relevant ways than I was when I took office. So I think in a way she has the best of both worlds.''

Bill Clinton was interviewed on the occasion of the 10th anniversary of the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. He is expected in Israel later this week for the Rabin memorials.

Hillary Clinton, who is running for re-election to the Senate next year, has refused to rule out a 2008 run for the presidency, saying she is concentrating on her current office. Polls show that if she runs for president, she would be the favorite for the Democratic nomination.

CRM114
11-05-05, 06:54 PM
Tom Daschle was on the Bill Maher show last night. He's heading to Iowa today. Tom, give it up babe. :lol:

crazyronin
11-05-05, 07:42 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-clin05.htmlAt least she ought to be able to keep her dick in her pants...








sorry


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