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classicman2
10-04-05, 05:19 PM
What political party would the Founding Fathers or Framers belong to?

We haven't played this in awhile.

I'll start with the easy one.

Alexander Hamilton - Country Club (Rockefeller) Republican

wendersfan
10-04-05, 06:48 PM
I'll start with an easier one - Thomas Jefferson would be a Libertarian. ;)

Pharoh
10-04-05, 06:54 PM
I'll start with an easier one - Thomas Jefferson would be a Libertarian. ;)



I honestly don't believe anybody, including Jefferson himself, has a good idea what party he would belong to.

mikehunt
10-04-05, 06:56 PM
I think most of the framers and founding fathers would be libertarians or members of the constitution party, but each of those parties would be larger and more powerful than now, and some of the really odd ideas each party has would not be there.

Pharoh
10-04-05, 06:59 PM
What political party would the Founding Fathers or Framers belong to?

We haven't played this in awhile.

I'll start with the easy one.

Alexander Hamilton - Country Club (Rockefeller) Republican


Well, he would be a Republican, (pro-business/pro-free trade), but not sure about your country club depiction. He was not that liberal, nor that willing to bend his his priciples.

Groucho
10-04-05, 07:31 PM
Hitler = Republican

Stalin = Democrat

Vlad the Impaler = Libertarian

Buddha = Green Party

Jack the Ripper = Reform Party

DVD Polizei
10-04-05, 07:37 PM
We'd probably have another revolution. :lol:

classicman2
10-04-05, 07:50 PM
I'll start with an easier one - Thomas Jefferson would be a Libertarian. ;)

Assuming that he wouldn't have 20th Century experience, I might agree with you. If he had - no way.

None of the others would be libertarian either - assuming 20th Century experience to demonstrate that libertarianism is not practical.

classicman2
10-04-05, 08:06 PM
There are still some Rockefeller Repubs around today. There are two in the U. S. Senate, for example: Olympia Snowe & Jim Jeffords.

I believe it was Goldwater who first referred (publically) to the Rockefeller Repubs as country club Republicans. I think Nixon did at times also.

VinVega
10-04-05, 08:07 PM
Assuming that he wouldn't have 20th Century experience, I might agree with you. If he had - no way.

None of the others would be libertarian either - assuming 20th Century experience to demonstrate that libertarianism is not practical.
This is a good point. Would George Washington be an isolationist given 20th century global politics? I don't think so. He'd be hip deep in it as much as any president since it's in America's self interest to do so.

X
10-04-05, 08:29 PM
Classicman - Scoop Jackson Democrat

Or was he too "hawkish"?

Ranger
10-04-05, 08:42 PM
I'll start with an easier one - Thomas Jefferson would be a Libertarian. ;)
Wasn't he the one who sent marines to Libya to fight off pirates harassing their shipping routes?

Now, I'm not saying that libertarians are isolationists, but I expect them to only use military force in cases necessary for national defense. I don't think protecting trade routes near north Africa is "essential" to America's national defense.

Not saying I disagree with Jefferson's actions or anything.

uberjoe
10-04-05, 09:42 PM
I honestly don't believe anybody, including Jefferson himself, has a good idea what party he would belong to.

Seeing as how he is quite dead, I doubt he's given the matter much thought recently. I think he'd be a Democrat, due to his fondness for the mochachina.

(A nod to Jon Stewart for that one.)

GFM
10-04-05, 10:21 PM
Wasn't he the one who sent marines to Libya to fight off pirates harassing their shipping routes?


The first round of the Barbary Wars happened under Jeffersons watch, but he also severely slashed the Navy and Army budgets. A major reason the US was so woefully unprepared in the first years of the War of 1812 was due to Jefferson. For the longest time Jefferson was my favorite president until I started studying the War of 1812 and he lost a great deal of stature in my eyes.

The Barbary Wars were much more than simply protecting trade routes. This site gives a quick overview http://www.mariner.org/usnavy/06/06a.htm

Nutter
10-05-05, 04:29 AM
Ghandi - Would move to Canada

Mammal
10-05-05, 07:09 AM
George Wallace - a Republican.

classicman2
10-05-05, 07:20 AM
George Wallace - a Republican.


I don't believe so.

Wallace had populist ideas that would not coinicide with being a Republican.

mosquitobite
10-05-05, 07:21 AM
Funny that Groucho is the only one who has said one would be a democrat.

Anyone think that any framer would be a Democrat (a Democrat TODAY)?

Duran
10-05-05, 08:45 AM
Funny that Groucho is the only one who has said one would be a democrat.

Anyone think that any framer would be a Democrat (a Democrat TODAY)?

Nor do I think any of them would be Republicans in their current incarnation, either.

The question itself is silly. Are we supposed to propose which party still contains their professed opinions from 200 years ago? In that case, the answer is mostly Libertarian, as they are the current party that doesn't believe the Commerce Clause gives the Feds carte blanche to do whatever it wants.

If we're trying to guess how the Framers' views might have changed over the last 200 years based on our current society, I barely think it would be worth discussing by any less than experts in the Framers backgrounds. And even then it wouldn't be more than mental masturbation.

Red Dog
10-05-05, 09:13 AM
So I am supposed to assume that these 18th century figures have 20th century experiences, which could be anything, and thus would fall into some political party based on indeterminate experiences. Rigggght.

Can't we just accept that they would all be rolling in their graves when they see what the federal government has become. Even a Hamiltonian strong central government person would probably get sick looking at it.

classicman2
10-05-05, 09:23 AM
Can we agree with the premise that even in 1800, those that were involved in government would not be libertarians even then - and that includes Madison & Jefferson?

Now if you're talking about someone like Thomas Paine, that's different.

Red Dog
10-05-05, 09:28 AM
Can we agree with the premise that even in 1800, those that were involved in government would not be libertarians even then - and that includes Madison & Jefferson?

Now if you're talking about someone like Thomas Paine, that's different.


You mean the folks who changed once they got a taste of the power of the Presidency. Yeah, really shocking how one's mindset can change after that.

Pharoh
10-05-05, 10:02 AM
Nor do I think any of them would be Republicans in their current incarnation, either.

The question itself is silly. Are we supposed to propose which party still contains their professed opinions from 200 years ago? In that case, the answer is mostly Libertarian, as they are the current party that doesn't believe the Commerce Clause gives the Feds carte blanche to do whatever it wants.

If we're trying to guess how the Framers' views might have changed over the last 200 years based on our current society, I barely think it would be worth discussing by any less than experts in the Framers backgrounds. And even then it wouldn't be more than mental masturbation.



Obviously the advocacy of slavery, even if only for purely economic reasons, eliminates the possibility of a great many Founders as ever being libertarian. As would a host of other issues, such as their views on free speech.

Duran
10-05-05, 10:04 AM
Obviously the advocacy of slavery, even if only for purely economic reasons, eliminates the possibility of a great many Founders as ever being libertarian. As would a host of other issues, such as their views on free speech.

The advocacy of slavery would eliminate the possibility of all the current political parties, would it not?

Pharoh
10-05-05, 10:06 AM
The advocacy of slavery would eliminate the possibility of all the current political parties, would it not?


Yes, but I took the question to be one more of ideology extrapolated into modern political conventions. In that case, the original question is neither meaningless or useless.

Red Dog
10-05-05, 10:13 AM
Yes, but I took the question to be one more of ideology extrapolated into modern political conventions. In that case, the original question is neither meaningless or useless.


So basically, you are asking whether these small government framers would do what Republicans do - lie and say they are for smaller government when they really aren't? :lol:

classicman2
10-05-05, 12:07 PM
I don't know who those small government framers were.

I hope you're not including Madison in that.

mosquitobite
10-05-05, 12:27 PM
I don't know who those small government framers were.

I hope you're not including Madison in that.

Small government in forms of taxation. Do you really think the framers wouldn't have a problem with a 25% tax rate?
:hscratch:

:up: :lol: to Red Dog

classicman2
10-05-05, 12:50 PM
No! I don't believe they would have a 'problem' with the federal income tax - since it came into being by a mechanism that those same framers thought of - a constitutional amendment. Certainly Madison & Hamilton understood that government had to be funded. It seems some of our libertarian and right-wing friends don't seem to believe that. ;)

I should think the framers (most of them) would have a problem with the plethora of federal agencies that we now have - something they did not envision. The real growth and power of the federal government is in those agencies. They would tell congress - 'do your job - the job to which you were created to perform.'

I would also think (not necessary have a problem with) is why in the hell do we elect both houses of the national legislature by popular vote? They certainly did not intend for that to happen; but, again the amendment process about that about. Therefore, it can be argued that they would say 'it works.'

wendersfan
10-05-05, 05:13 PM
No! I don't believe they would have a 'problem' with the federal income tax - since it came into being by a mechanism that those same framers thought of - a constitutional amendment.By that logic one could argue that Benjamin Franklin would not have had a problem with Prohibition. :D

movielib
10-05-05, 05:43 PM
Obviously the advocacy of slavery, even if only for purely economic reasons, eliminates the possibility of a great many Founders as ever being libertarian...
Thomas Paine, as usual, was out in front on the issue:

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/afri.html

Breakfast with Girls
10-05-05, 09:03 PM
The advocacy of slavery would eliminate the possibility of all the current political parties, would it not?Yes, except for Republicans.


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