Return of the One-and-Only Old School HK Kung Fu Thread
07-08-05, 02:31 PM
#1
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Return of the One-and-Only Old School HK Kung Fu Thread
This is an attempt to update the previous One-and-Only Old School HK Kung Fu thread and gather the growing number of old-school related posts, reviews, questions and news related to various "old school" kung fu movies.
This thread here didn't start out that way, but has since become a good source of some reviews and discussion about old-school in general:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=121945
Also this recent thread has some other posts:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=128430
Many thanks to Iaido and elengineer for taking the time to write the following introduction and maintaining the old thread regarding Old-School:
What is “old school” kung fu?
Generally it is any kung fu film (almost always with a period setting) made between the late 60’s and early 80’s. Hong Kong produced hundreds of kung fu films during this time, many of which over the years found their way to US shores in inner city movie theaters, drive-ins, to UHF tv stations and cable by way of various chop socky Kung Fu/Black Belt Theaters, and flooded the home market with videos. The genre really took off with the success of One-Armed Swordsman in 1969, flourished throughout the 70’s, and began its decline in the early 80’s, eventually by 1985, it was pretty much dead, replaced by modern setting (often Westernized) action films like Police Story and In the Line of Duty.
Who were the kings of kung fu?
The Pepsi and Coke of kung fu films were Golden Harvest and The Shaw Brothers. Shaw Bros. built massive studio city in which their actors and directors lived, trained, and shot their films under a regimen that excluding cameos, still had them making multiple films a year (for example- Chang Cheh directed/wrote no less than 8 films in 1979). Shaw was best known for talent like Chang Cheh, Liu Chia Liang, Gordon Liu (Liu Chia Hui), Alexander Fu Sheng, and Ti Lung. Golden Harvest’s talent stable included the likes of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, Yuen Biao, Wei Lo, and Yuen Woo Ping.
What’s up with the quality?
Aside from being made very fast and cheap, unfortunately the term “film preservation” is not very well known in the Hong Kong film industry, particularly with kung fu films, and only in recent years has it began to slowly get some attention (a Hong Kong Film Archive which began in the early 90’s finally opened this year). Kung Fu films were released in the days before the home market, so the intention was, once a film had gathered all the money it could box officewise, it was usually shelved and not taken care of. Even when the home viewing market boomed, the films still were usually copied cheaply, and often times the original prints and negatives were left rotting or destroyed, much in the same way we treated our silent films.
Update: However, Shaw Bros sold their library of films (not just limited to Kung Fu films) to IVL/Celestial Pictures. Celestial has gone through the library, cleaning and re-mastering prints and have been re-releasing them on dvd. Up until now, many of the dvds were dubs, often taken from VHS recordings of Saturday afternoon Black Belt theater shown on tv which accounts for bad cuts and poor quality. Or some (very few) actually made it through to US distribution and onto home video.
Some Old School Stars
Gordon Lui (Liu Chia Hui), Ti Lung, Jimmy Wang Yu, David Chiang, Casanova Wong, Jackie Chan, Yuen Biao, Sammo Hung, Pei Pei Cheng, Alexander Fu Sheng, Angelo Mao, The Venoms (Kou Chui, Lo Mang, Sun Chien, Chiang Sheng, and Lu Feng), Chen Kuan Tai, Jang Lee Hwang, and Lieh Lo.
Some Directors
Chang Cheh is sort of the wild, exploitative director, and most prolific, with films utilizing many fantasy elements, weapons, trickery, and almost always bloodshed and gore.
Chang Cheh films:
Five (Deadly) Venoms
Boxer Rebellion
Shaolin Temple (aka Death Chamber)
Heroes Two
Shaolin Avengers
One-Armed Swordsman
The Water Margin (aka Seven Blows of the Dragon)
Killer Army*
Flag of Iron (aka Spearmen of Death)*
Five Shaolin Masters (aka 5 Masters of Death)
The Kid With the Golden Arm*
*not yet remastered by Celestial but still available in its dubbed format on DVD.
Lui Chia Liang aka Lau Kar Leung is a formidable martial artist from a respected martial family. His films examine more cultural and historical aspects and favor more elaborate, masterful fight choreography, than other tricks. He brought a light, comedic balance to most of his films and made characters more of a focal point than martial arts. Recently, he directed and starred in Drunken Monkey because he wanted to show today's directors that traditional fight choreography can still work.
Liu Chai Liang films:
Clan of the White Lotus (aka Fist of the White Lotus)
The 36th Chamber of Shaolin (aka Master Killer)
Heroes of the East (aka Shaolin Challenges Ninja)
Dirty Ho
Eight Diagram Pole Fighter
Martial Club
Mad Monkey Kung Fu
Shaolin Executioners
Yuen Woo Ping is one of the most malleable action stagers, beginning his directing career at the tail end of old school kung fu. He was able to make the transition from old school to modern films; his crew/family pretty much pioneered modern wirework, and as a director he is most notable for combing modern and traditional elements.
Yuen Woo Ping films:
Drunken Master
The Buddhist Fist
Magnificent Butcher
Snake in the Eagle's Shadow
Dreadnought
Sammo Hung an accomplished martial artist, comedian, and action director, who proved himself capable in all whether behind the camera, in front of it, and often times both.
Sammo Hung films:
Odd Couple
Prodigal Son
Warriors Two
The Victim
Knockabout
Enter the Fat Dragon
Again, thanks to Iaido for writing the above and elengineer for starting the original thread.
Footnotes: As far as DVDs, most of the Shaw Bros library is being released by Celestial in it's original language. This pretty much includes all Chang Cheh & Liu Chia Liang films and as of right now, they're region 3 coded. Miramax did pick up a few titles from Celestial for US distribution in Region 1 coding, but with the recent sale of Miramax, who knows when those titles will ever see the light of day.
Now there are other distributors of the dubbed Shaw Bros films. Most notably, Ground Zero and Pan Media/Cadman. You may notice some differences in the cuts of the films.
Also, Warner Home Video put out a VHS version of The Water Margin, retitled Seven Blows of the Dragon, and it contains a different cut of the film, too. It's not much of a difference, but there are different scenes included or deleted. The same can be said of the VHS version of Chinese Super Ninjas (Five Elements Ninjas) and the Ground Zero DVD.
So just be careful what you purchase, make sure it's the version you want.
Here's a release schedule for Celestial that is inclusive of all the Shaw Bros films coming out this year.
Now, lets get the discussion rolling... y'know, for Trigger's sake.
This thread here didn't start out that way, but has since become a good source of some reviews and discussion about old-school in general:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=121945
Also this recent thread has some other posts:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthr...hreadid=128430
Many thanks to Iaido and elengineer for taking the time to write the following introduction and maintaining the old thread regarding Old-School:
What is “old school” kung fu?
Generally it is any kung fu film (almost always with a period setting) made between the late 60’s and early 80’s. Hong Kong produced hundreds of kung fu films during this time, many of which over the years found their way to US shores in inner city movie theaters, drive-ins, to UHF tv stations and cable by way of various chop socky Kung Fu/Black Belt Theaters, and flooded the home market with videos. The genre really took off with the success of One-Armed Swordsman in 1969, flourished throughout the 70’s, and began its decline in the early 80’s, eventually by 1985, it was pretty much dead, replaced by modern setting (often Westernized) action films like Police Story and In the Line of Duty.
Who were the kings of kung fu?
The Pepsi and Coke of kung fu films were Golden Harvest and The Shaw Brothers. Shaw Bros. built massive studio city in which their actors and directors lived, trained, and shot their films under a regimen that excluding cameos, still had them making multiple films a year (for example- Chang Cheh directed/wrote no less than 8 films in 1979). Shaw was best known for talent like Chang Cheh, Liu Chia Liang, Gordon Liu (Liu Chia Hui), Alexander Fu Sheng, and Ti Lung. Golden Harvest’s talent stable included the likes of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, Yuen Biao, Wei Lo, and Yuen Woo Ping.
What’s up with the quality?
Aside from being made very fast and cheap, unfortunately the term “film preservation” is not very well known in the Hong Kong film industry, particularly with kung fu films, and only in recent years has it began to slowly get some attention (a Hong Kong Film Archive which began in the early 90’s finally opened this year). Kung Fu films were released in the days before the home market, so the intention was, once a film had gathered all the money it could box officewise, it was usually shelved and not taken care of. Even when the home viewing market boomed, the films still were usually copied cheaply, and often times the original prints and negatives were left rotting or destroyed, much in the same way we treated our silent films.
Update: However, Shaw Bros sold their library of films (not just limited to Kung Fu films) to IVL/Celestial Pictures. Celestial has gone through the library, cleaning and re-mastering prints and have been re-releasing them on dvd. Up until now, many of the dvds were dubs, often taken from VHS recordings of Saturday afternoon Black Belt theater shown on tv which accounts for bad cuts and poor quality. Or some (very few) actually made it through to US distribution and onto home video.
Some Old School Stars
Gordon Lui (Liu Chia Hui), Ti Lung, Jimmy Wang Yu, David Chiang, Casanova Wong, Jackie Chan, Yuen Biao, Sammo Hung, Pei Pei Cheng, Alexander Fu Sheng, Angelo Mao, The Venoms (Kou Chui, Lo Mang, Sun Chien, Chiang Sheng, and Lu Feng), Chen Kuan Tai, Jang Lee Hwang, and Lieh Lo.
Some Directors
Chang Cheh is sort of the wild, exploitative director, and most prolific, with films utilizing many fantasy elements, weapons, trickery, and almost always bloodshed and gore.
Chang Cheh films:
Five (Deadly) Venoms
Boxer Rebellion
Shaolin Temple (aka Death Chamber)
Heroes Two
Shaolin Avengers
One-Armed Swordsman
The Water Margin (aka Seven Blows of the Dragon)
Killer Army*
Flag of Iron (aka Spearmen of Death)*
Five Shaolin Masters (aka 5 Masters of Death)
The Kid With the Golden Arm*
*not yet remastered by Celestial but still available in its dubbed format on DVD.
Lui Chia Liang aka Lau Kar Leung is a formidable martial artist from a respected martial family. His films examine more cultural and historical aspects and favor more elaborate, masterful fight choreography, than other tricks. He brought a light, comedic balance to most of his films and made characters more of a focal point than martial arts. Recently, he directed and starred in Drunken Monkey because he wanted to show today's directors that traditional fight choreography can still work.
Liu Chai Liang films:
Clan of the White Lotus (aka Fist of the White Lotus)
The 36th Chamber of Shaolin (aka Master Killer)
Heroes of the East (aka Shaolin Challenges Ninja)
Dirty Ho
Eight Diagram Pole Fighter
Martial Club
Mad Monkey Kung Fu
Shaolin Executioners
Yuen Woo Ping is one of the most malleable action stagers, beginning his directing career at the tail end of old school kung fu. He was able to make the transition from old school to modern films; his crew/family pretty much pioneered modern wirework, and as a director he is most notable for combing modern and traditional elements.
Yuen Woo Ping films:
Drunken Master
The Buddhist Fist
Magnificent Butcher
Snake in the Eagle's Shadow
Dreadnought
Sammo Hung an accomplished martial artist, comedian, and action director, who proved himself capable in all whether behind the camera, in front of it, and often times both.
Sammo Hung films:
Odd Couple
Prodigal Son
Warriors Two
The Victim
Knockabout
Enter the Fat Dragon
Again, thanks to Iaido for writing the above and elengineer for starting the original thread.
Footnotes: As far as DVDs, most of the Shaw Bros library is being released by Celestial in it's original language. This pretty much includes all Chang Cheh & Liu Chia Liang films and as of right now, they're region 3 coded. Miramax did pick up a few titles from Celestial for US distribution in Region 1 coding, but with the recent sale of Miramax, who knows when those titles will ever see the light of day.
Now there are other distributors of the dubbed Shaw Bros films. Most notably, Ground Zero and Pan Media/Cadman. You may notice some differences in the cuts of the films.
Also, Warner Home Video put out a VHS version of The Water Margin, retitled Seven Blows of the Dragon, and it contains a different cut of the film, too. It's not much of a difference, but there are different scenes included or deleted. The same can be said of the VHS version of Chinese Super Ninjas (Five Elements Ninjas) and the Ground Zero DVD.
So just be careful what you purchase, make sure it's the version you want.
Here's a release schedule for Celestial that is inclusive of all the Shaw Bros films coming out this year.
Now, lets get the discussion rolling... y'know, for Trigger's sake.
07-11-05, 02:54 PM
#3
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Other reviews of Celestial Shaw Bros releases...
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323467
http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323467
07-14-05, 08:54 PM
#5
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Originally Posted by Trigger
I'll update my link to point to this thread. Hope the discussion goes well. 
I'll be reviewing and comparing some of the Ground Zero stuff (and others) to the Celestial stuff so people know what's going on.
So I can discuss stuff with myself
07-15-05, 07:15 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: n. virginia, USA
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just to reiterate for those just discovering the shaw classics. cd-wow is the cheapest place to pick up new celestial releases. use the $2 off link found here; http://www.dvdbargain.net/ShowDisc.asp
after coupon the new shaws are $10.95 shipped and they have a decent back catalogue. word of warning though on the older shaw titles. once they sell out, cd-wow seems to stop carrying the title, so pick up what you want asap. several titles released less than a year ago are no longer available on cd-wow.
other recommended e-tailers are layoyo, yesasia, senasian, and dddhouse. i'm probably forgetting a few others. they carry almost every shaw dvd and vcd released so far, but are more expensive than cd-wow with that $2 link.
i also suggest checking out the Kung Fu Fandom forum for news and reviews on classic martial arts flicks http://p081.ezboard.com/fkungfufandomfrm1
after coupon the new shaws are $10.95 shipped and they have a decent back catalogue. word of warning though on the older shaw titles. once they sell out, cd-wow seems to stop carrying the title, so pick up what you want asap. several titles released less than a year ago are no longer available on cd-wow.
other recommended e-tailers are layoyo, yesasia, senasian, and dddhouse. i'm probably forgetting a few others. they carry almost every shaw dvd and vcd released so far, but are more expensive than cd-wow with that $2 link.
i also suggest checking out the Kung Fu Fandom forum for news and reviews on classic martial arts flicks http://p081.ezboard.com/fkungfufandomfrm1
07-22-05, 09:22 PM
#7
New Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really don't see the problem with the remastered audio. I mean, The Chinese Boxers new soundtrack is atrocious, but aside from that, most of Celestial's DVDs just add meaningless sounds. Just turn the rear speakers off and you have instant stereo. If that doesn't cut it for you, turn the rest off and leave the center on. Also, the picture quality on these DVDs is nothing short of amazing (and I'm someone who is nitpicky about American DVDs). While some of the transfers aren't always was pristine and bright, and some leave a few blotches in, you have to take a look at when the films were released. You can't get mad and say the transfers blows, or esle I'll run to your home and throw the original VHS at you. The audio is also fine, given its not the english dub. English dub ruins the entire impact of the film, and I think its a travesty in itself, so I'm actually glad to buy 17 dvds at a time (I did in chinatown) just so I can have the original language track. I just don't see any problem with the remixed audio, it sounds nice and clear, strong bass in most cases, and often the music is very well done in that it uses each speaker clearly. I just wish people would shut up about them unless its a total mess up like Chinese Boxer.
07-25-05, 04:42 PM
#8
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
I took at look at Legendary Weapons of China this weekend.
 Celestial/IVL (R3) |  Lion Video (R1, dub) |
| There's not much difference between these two versions other than the dub and even that is pretty close to the original language story. The Celestial version clocks in at 1:40 and the Lion Video comes in at 1:44. There are no extra scenes of footage added into the Lion Video version and I think the longer runtime could be attributed to video conversion tho I can't be sure. Lion Video is presented in full frame, cropped 1:33 and the Celestial release is the original format 2:35. The Lion Video is grainy and the colors are very washed out, doesn't come with the original language. The Celestial is vibrant and has some remastered foley, but isn't too distracting. Lion is in pretty much a mono sound where the Celestial is in Dolby Digital 5.1. This is a first effort, I'm not sure if I should include a synopsis of the story or not. I'll go thru all the titles I have in the same manner as a side by side comparison. I will say it takes some getting used to hearing the original language. If you've grown up liking the dubbed version (which always seemed edited by Larry Bensky) you may want to pick up the Lion Video for nostalgic purposes. | |
07-25-05, 10:28 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by devilshalo
There's not much difference between these two versions other than the dub and even that is pretty close to the original language story.
07-26-05, 01:31 AM
#10
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Originally Posted by Linn1
The Lion Video dvd is also a bootleg and a bad one at that.
07-26-05, 05:41 PM
#11
DVD Talk Hero
FYI, this documentary gives a good introduction on the origins and the history of the genre:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...437055-4191957
It's only $16 at DeepDiscountDVD.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...437055-4191957
It's only $16 at DeepDiscountDVD.
07-26-05, 07:53 PM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right,
Originally Posted by devilshalo
Aren't they all pretty much bootleg to some degree. I mean I tried to explain in the first post that most of them are bad transfers off television.
07-27-05, 09:54 AM
#14
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Originally Posted by Linn1
That's certainly correct, but the continued promotion of these dvds and their sale in B&M stores have insured that fans in the U.S. will not be seeing these films any time soon. The first legit R1 dvds of Shaw Brothers films will get their first release before the end of this year, but tellingly, they will NOT be kung fu films.
And the thing is, I own both versions. I want the Celestial remaster for it's clean print, original language and extras (and I'll keep supporting them). And for $10, I can relive my childhood watching the crappy Lion Video/Ground Zero dvd's because I'm so familiar with the dubbed voices.
And since Celestial/IVL own the rights, the other versions will have to cease and desist from any further pressings, wouldn't they?
Last edited by devilshalo; 07-27-05 at 09:57 AM.
07-27-05, 12:41 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Um...
Originally Posted by devilshalo
Do you have a list of what films MiraHax are going to be releasing? Or has Celestial/IVL found another stateside distributor?
[/QUOTE]And the thing is, I own both versions. I want the Celestial remaster for it's clean print, original language and extras (and I'll keep supporting them). And for $10, I can relive my childhood watching the crappy Lion Video/Ground Zero dvd's because I'm so familiar with the dubbed voices.?[/QUOTE]
That's great, but by buying these dvds, you support these bootleg releases. I could care less about fan made boots of old video tapes and the like that don't make it into stores, but these Pan Media, Xenon, and Lion releases that come out in stores have killed the kung fu market in the U.S. Haven't you wondered why more labels don't release kung fu films legit? OR why we're seeing all these Japanese films, but none of the still unreleased old school classics? It's because the bootleggars have lowered the prices so low ($7.99 at Best Buy) it's impossable to afford legit rights to the films and put them out. Also once these titles are in a stores system, they will not reorder the same title unless it's a big studio release. Best Buy wouldn't stock the Seven Grandmaster disc I work on for Medial Blasters because it was $15.99. I'm working with a company right now in Taiwan called Insan that will be releasing old school Taiwanese films 16:9 Enhanced widescreen, subbed and dubbed. They'll be released thoughout Europe and in other countries, but they won't be releasing them in US stores for this very reason.
[/QUOTE]And since Celestial/IVL own the rights, the other versions will have to cease and desist from any further pressings, wouldn't they?[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter anyway, the damage is already done. Why would celestial or anyone the bought the rights, waste the money to protect films that are now everywhere?
As for King Drummer, dare we to dream dleedlee!
07-27-05, 03:17 PM
#16
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Somewhere between Heaven and Hell
Posts: 34,101
Received 729 Likes
on
532 Posts
Originally Posted by Linn1
That's great, but by buying these dvds, you support these bootleg releases. I could care less about fan made boots of old video tapes and the like that don't make it into stores, but these Pan Media, Xenon, and Lion releases that come out in stores have killed the kung fu market in the U.S. Haven't you wondered why more labels don't release kung fu films legit?
07-27-05, 04:43 PM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please note,
Originally Posted by devilshalo
I always thought that it was due to the Shaw Bros not really giving two shits about what happens after the released film has made its money at the boxoffice. That they never really sought out or cared about home video. And that the properties somehow opened up the door to some really bad interpretations regarding public domain.
Sales to fans don't truly hurt dvd business of cult films. Reason? The fans will buy a better edition of the film again to get the best version. But sales to "Joe Sixpack" hurts cult films in a large way because that is an impulse sale you can't get back. Unless someone is turned on to the films, they often won't buy a better version of that film again. Particularly if the average bootleg release in stores is $9 and the legit version would be $15. And the bad thing is now on-line vendors are supporting guys like Red Sun and Pan Media (the same company BTW) who do nothing but take the Celestial remasters and overdub them in English. And don't get too excited, they're not well done.
07-27-05, 06:29 PM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: n. virginia, USA
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
nice to see you here Linn. Your input on kung fu fandom and kfcc forums has been invaluable.
i've always hoped celestial's massive undertaking to archive and remaster the shaw catalogue would be a catalyst for other companies to start tackling their studio catalogues properly. Wouldn't it be great to have the Golden Harvest remasters right next to the Shaw remasters on the shelf? Now after reading all the discussion over celestial cutting back on shaw releases starting next year I have little hope that any company will ever make a concerted, financial effort into remastering classic martial arts fims. Companies like Pathfinder do an acceptable job, but they can only scratch the surface with a few releases a year.
I totally agree that the US market has been ruined many times over, because of these substandard releases. There is just no way to build up a demand for these films when they are already available for super cheap. Doesn't matter if it's a crappy version or not. Face it, most people into kung fu flicks are not film purists who like their language original and their aspect ratio proper. Seeing guys and gals flying around on screen and doing badass poses is all they care about. Miramax has fucked up so many asian films in the past, I'd just rather them not worry about region 1.
i've always hoped celestial's massive undertaking to archive and remaster the shaw catalogue would be a catalyst for other companies to start tackling their studio catalogues properly. Wouldn't it be great to have the Golden Harvest remasters right next to the Shaw remasters on the shelf? Now after reading all the discussion over celestial cutting back on shaw releases starting next year I have little hope that any company will ever make a concerted, financial effort into remastering classic martial arts fims. Companies like Pathfinder do an acceptable job, but they can only scratch the surface with a few releases a year.
I totally agree that the US market has been ruined many times over, because of these substandard releases. There is just no way to build up a demand for these films when they are already available for super cheap. Doesn't matter if it's a crappy version or not. Face it, most people into kung fu flicks are not film purists who like their language original and their aspect ratio proper. Seeing guys and gals flying around on screen and doing badass poses is all they care about. Miramax has fucked up so many asian films in the past, I'd just rather them not worry about region 1.
07-27-05, 07:12 PM
#20
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Linn1
But sales to "Joe Sixpack" hurts cult films in a large way because that is an impulse sale you can't get back. Unless someone is turned on to the films, they often won't buy a better version of that film again. Particularly if the average bootleg release in stores is $9 and the legit version would be $15.
07-27-05, 07:44 PM
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well,
To take you in order:
"I've always hoped celestial's massive undertaking to archive and remaster the shaw catalogue would be a catalyst for other companies to start tackling their studio catalogues properly. Wouldn't it be great to have the Golden Harvest remasters right next to the Shaw remasters on the shelf?"
This the VERY reason why Fortune Star began remastering the GH catalog. After all the fervor that the Shaw Brothers started a Cannes a few years back, FS announced they would remaster all of their work as well. The problem is, they've decided to not release the old films, as Celestial’s releases didn’t do as well as they thought. FS will just
"Now after reading all the discussion over celestial cutting back on shaw releases starting next year I have little hope that any company will ever make a concerted, financial effort into remastering classic martial arts films. Companies like Pathfinder do an acceptable job, but they can only scratch the surface with a few releases a year."
Well, you will be VERY happy with the Eastern Star/Insan label. The titles will be old school Taiwanese kung fu or horror, 16:9 Enhanced widescreen, subbed, and dubbed. And some extras as well. And the releases will include films never released on video, as well as never before seen versions of well known films. As for the US, there's a couple of companies that will carry the torch, but we won't be getting anything like HKL in the UK anytime soon. I will say, this is the most exciting time to enjoy kung fu films, as we'll see more quality releases in the next two years of old school kung fu than we have ever seen previously on dvd. Just not in the U.S.
"Face it, most people into kung fu flicks are not film purists who like their language original and their aspect ratio proper."
True, but they've never been given a chance. Watching a widescreen kung fu film that you've seen in fullscreen all your life is like watching a new movie. Also, $13-$15 is just not that much IMO.
Well, aren't you assuming they wouldn't? They do so for other cult genres like Japanese horror, Spag. Westerns, Euro cult, etc. And shouldn't the market dictate the price and what someone is willing to pay? You could argue it has I suppose, but only through the proliferation of bootlegs. Media Blasters broke it down this way for me, at $15-$20, you will do ok with a legit popular kung fu title. At $10, you don't even break even. The issue is, when bootleggers realized the legit retailers were coming into "their" market, they lowered the prices on these dvds and there's no way real dvd companies can compete with that. When a company like Best Buy sees two dvds they can sell, both kung fu, and one is $12 and one is $8, they're going to pick the $8 one every time. And when you have bootleggers as vicious as those in the U.S., who have gone so far as to watch fan sites for advance word of legit releases and release their version of the film first (Dance of the Drunk Mantis, the entire Angela Mao collection) to undercut their competition, that's too far. I mean, fans in the U.S. have lost at LEAST 20-30 quality releases in the last three years just because of these practices. Some of these guys (Video Asia) simply buy UK dvds and release them covers and all in the US with poor PAL to NTSC transfers, so how is there a chance for any legit label?
"I've always hoped celestial's massive undertaking to archive and remaster the shaw catalogue would be a catalyst for other companies to start tackling their studio catalogues properly. Wouldn't it be great to have the Golden Harvest remasters right next to the Shaw remasters on the shelf?"
This the VERY reason why Fortune Star began remastering the GH catalog. After all the fervor that the Shaw Brothers started a Cannes a few years back, FS announced they would remaster all of their work as well. The problem is, they've decided to not release the old films, as Celestial’s releases didn’t do as well as they thought. FS will just
"Now after reading all the discussion over celestial cutting back on shaw releases starting next year I have little hope that any company will ever make a concerted, financial effort into remastering classic martial arts films. Companies like Pathfinder do an acceptable job, but they can only scratch the surface with a few releases a year."
Well, you will be VERY happy with the Eastern Star/Insan label. The titles will be old school Taiwanese kung fu or horror, 16:9 Enhanced widescreen, subbed, and dubbed. And some extras as well. And the releases will include films never released on video, as well as never before seen versions of well known films. As for the US, there's a couple of companies that will carry the torch, but we won't be getting anything like HKL in the UK anytime soon. I will say, this is the most exciting time to enjoy kung fu films, as we'll see more quality releases in the next two years of old school kung fu than we have ever seen previously on dvd. Just not in the U.S.
"Face it, most people into kung fu flicks are not film purists who like their language original and their aspect ratio proper."
True, but they've never been given a chance. Watching a widescreen kung fu film that you've seen in fullscreen all your life is like watching a new movie. Also, $13-$15 is just not that much IMO.
Originally Posted by eXcentris
Aren't you assuming that Joe Sixpack would buy the better $15 version if it was the only one available? If he's not a true fan and only has limited interest in the genre, he might very well think that $15 is too much to pay.
Last edited by Linn1; 07-27-05 at 10:06 PM.
07-28-05, 10:07 AM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: n. virginia, USA
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Well, you will be VERY happy with the Eastern Star/Insan label. The titles will be old school Taiwanese kung fu or horror, 16:9 Enhanced widescreen, subbed, and dubbed."
Which country will these be coming out of and what is the rate of new releases look like? We've been spoiled by Celestial's bi-weekly release schedule. Doubt any company will ever live up to those standards.
"The problem is, they've decided to not release the old films, as Celestial’s releases didn’t do as well as they thought."
Thanks for the confirming my worst fears. So instead of letting anyone else have a crack at it, Fortune Star will just sit on the GH back catalogue.
anyways.... a DVD Talk review of the recently released classic Dirty Ho was just posted. http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=16944
Which country will these be coming out of and what is the rate of new releases look like? We've been spoiled by Celestial's bi-weekly release schedule. Doubt any company will ever live up to those standards.
"The problem is, they've decided to not release the old films, as Celestial’s releases didn’t do as well as they thought."
Thanks for the confirming my worst fears. So instead of letting anyone else have a crack at it, Fortune Star will just sit on the GH back catalogue.
anyways.... a DVD Talk review of the recently released classic Dirty Ho was just posted. http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=16944
07-28-05, 02:52 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't get too upset.
"Which country will these be coming out of and what is the rate of new releases look like? We've been spoiled by Celestial's bi-weekly release schedule. Doubt any company will ever live up to those standards."
Yeah, don't be looking for that! These disc will be for sale in Taiwan, BUT they are really made for fans outside of Taiwan and I will be working with their distribution to make them available to fans outside of Taiwan. Once all the kinks are ironed out, I'd say look for about a release every two months, sometimes one a month. It all depends on how quick they can transfer the prints. They will be worth the wait though, the first one is Two Assassins of the Darkness starring Wong Tao and Chang Yi, which will mark it's first appearance on video widescreen and subbed. As well as having the English dub track too!
"Thanks for the confirming my worst fears. So instead of letting anyone else have a crack at it, Fortune Star will just sit on the GH back catalogue."
Please know that that doesn't keep anyone like HKL or US companies from releasing them though. I know HKL are going to release some of the classic stuff and there's at least two companies in the US in talks.
Yeah, don't be looking for that! These disc will be for sale in Taiwan, BUT they are really made for fans outside of Taiwan and I will be working with their distribution to make them available to fans outside of Taiwan. Once all the kinks are ironed out, I'd say look for about a release every two months, sometimes one a month. It all depends on how quick they can transfer the prints. They will be worth the wait though, the first one is Two Assassins of the Darkness starring Wong Tao and Chang Yi, which will mark it's first appearance on video widescreen and subbed. As well as having the English dub track too!
"Thanks for the confirming my worst fears. So instead of letting anyone else have a crack at it, Fortune Star will just sit on the GH back catalogue."
Please know that that doesn't keep anyone like HKL or US companies from releasing them though. I know HKL are going to release some of the classic stuff and there's at least two companies in the US in talks.
07-28-05, 06:41 PM
#24
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Linn1
Well, aren't you assuming they wouldn't?
09-20-05, 02:04 PM
#25
DVD Talk Gold Edition
Been meaning to chime in here for some time now and given my most recent post in Movie Talk now might be a good time to bring the “blood ‘n guts” side of my persona to the fore.
After a slow start to my appreciation of these films (referring to the Celestial Shaw releases), I can now proclaim I am completely hooked. Although I did reasonably enjoy the initial handful of films that I watched maybe a year ago, they didn’t quite capture me as a viewer and I would not have been enthusiastic in recommending them beyond the constraints of genre fare. After setting aside further exploration of the releases for a few months, I recently decided to re-evaluate my position – and I am thankful that I did.
As a kid, I never really liked these films. I know most of you long-time fans have a fondness for the English dubs of these films but in hindsight I think the dubs were a major turn-off for me as a kid – not that watching English-subtitled versions would have made a fan out of me either.
So anyway, watching them now with English-subs and more importantly in their widescreen original aspect ratio, I have found - impressively so given the rather limited number of films I have watched - some of them to be brilliantly entertaining, and virtually all of them delivered a commendable and enjoyable night of entertainment. Seeing these films in widescreen is a must. The cinematography and Shaw Bros. sets are often a feast for the eyes, and the stories are interesting. As someone who is extremely critical of what is passed off as action in too much of modern filmmaking, the absence in these Shaw Bros. films of too-close camerawork, shaky cam, rapid-cutting, and a general incomprehensible presentation of the action is heaven sent. The fight choreography and weaponry is wildly inventive and best of all it is presented in such a fine manner that you as a viewer can appreciate all the work, skill, and talent involved. The camera is set back, held still, and you take in an entire scene in its widescreen magnificence with only limited changes in camera angles designed to give you the best shot of the action. No quick-cutting required here because these folks are talented. Honestly, a large portion of modern action directors are put to shame by what the Shaw Bros. delivered 30 years ago. Also, it is really fun to watch these films and sometimes see various influences whether it be Japanese samurai films or American/Spaghetti Westerns as played out in a martial arts film.
Before I continue on with this perhaps senseless ramble, I’ll get to the point. And this is more for newbies as opposed to you veteran viewers out there. If you haven’t already, do check out the following:
Come Drink With Me – not as strong on action but a great piece of cinema
Heroes of the East – a light and breezy but good story, and an action fans delight with all sorts of weaponry
Avenging Eagle – basic but strong story and solid action
It looks like discussion of these films has died on this forum. That would be a darned shame. Celestial is still releasing them in waves and many – including “Heroes of the East” and “Avenging Eagle” - are a steal right now over at CD-WOW ($9.95 after the discount link and even a couple of bucks cheaper if you haven’t used the one-time use $2-off DVDTalk coupon).
Others I’ve also enjoyed recently:
Martial Club
King Boxer
The Invincible Fist
King Cat
The first one I ever purchased back then was “The 36th Chamber of Shaolin” which I had already been familiar with. Surprisingly the one that soured me on these titles back then was “The Eight Diagram Pole Fighter”. Being inexperienced with the genre, I’d read great things about it but it failed to impress during too much of its runtime. If it’s the same movie I’m thinking about, for something that was supposed to be rather grim because of what happened to one of its stars, it had a little too much silliness early on, before the tragic events which caused a change in the film’s tone.
Anyway, the whole point of this is if, like me, you’d sort of quit on these films or perhaps you are new to the genre then do give some serious consideration to picking up some more of these titles. Any experts or non-experts too want to list their favorites? I think I own about 40 of these right now but I’m looking to add another 30 or more in the comings few months. Now that I can count myself as a fan, I'd really like to see discussion of these films get a jump start here in this forum.
This is the “Old School Kung Fu” and not the “Shaw Bros” discussion so I suppose Huangmei Opera discussion would been frowned upon, right? Darned, I think my “blood ‘n guts” to the fore intent just got blown to pieces.
After a slow start to my appreciation of these films (referring to the Celestial Shaw releases), I can now proclaim I am completely hooked. Although I did reasonably enjoy the initial handful of films that I watched maybe a year ago, they didn’t quite capture me as a viewer and I would not have been enthusiastic in recommending them beyond the constraints of genre fare. After setting aside further exploration of the releases for a few months, I recently decided to re-evaluate my position – and I am thankful that I did.
As a kid, I never really liked these films. I know most of you long-time fans have a fondness for the English dubs of these films but in hindsight I think the dubs were a major turn-off for me as a kid – not that watching English-subtitled versions would have made a fan out of me either.
So anyway, watching them now with English-subs and more importantly in their widescreen original aspect ratio, I have found - impressively so given the rather limited number of films I have watched - some of them to be brilliantly entertaining, and virtually all of them delivered a commendable and enjoyable night of entertainment. Seeing these films in widescreen is a must. The cinematography and Shaw Bros. sets are often a feast for the eyes, and the stories are interesting. As someone who is extremely critical of what is passed off as action in too much of modern filmmaking, the absence in these Shaw Bros. films of too-close camerawork, shaky cam, rapid-cutting, and a general incomprehensible presentation of the action is heaven sent. The fight choreography and weaponry is wildly inventive and best of all it is presented in such a fine manner that you as a viewer can appreciate all the work, skill, and talent involved. The camera is set back, held still, and you take in an entire scene in its widescreen magnificence with only limited changes in camera angles designed to give you the best shot of the action. No quick-cutting required here because these folks are talented. Honestly, a large portion of modern action directors are put to shame by what the Shaw Bros. delivered 30 years ago. Also, it is really fun to watch these films and sometimes see various influences whether it be Japanese samurai films or American/Spaghetti Westerns as played out in a martial arts film.
Before I continue on with this perhaps senseless ramble, I’ll get to the point. And this is more for newbies as opposed to you veteran viewers out there. If you haven’t already, do check out the following:
Come Drink With Me – not as strong on action but a great piece of cinema
Heroes of the East – a light and breezy but good story, and an action fans delight with all sorts of weaponry
Avenging Eagle – basic but strong story and solid action
It looks like discussion of these films has died on this forum. That would be a darned shame. Celestial is still releasing them in waves and many – including “Heroes of the East” and “Avenging Eagle” - are a steal right now over at CD-WOW ($9.95 after the discount link and even a couple of bucks cheaper if you haven’t used the one-time use $2-off DVDTalk coupon).
Others I’ve also enjoyed recently:
Martial Club
King Boxer
The Invincible Fist
King Cat
The first one I ever purchased back then was “The 36th Chamber of Shaolin” which I had already been familiar with. Surprisingly the one that soured me on these titles back then was “The Eight Diagram Pole Fighter”. Being inexperienced with the genre, I’d read great things about it but it failed to impress during too much of its runtime. If it’s the same movie I’m thinking about, for something that was supposed to be rather grim because of what happened to one of its stars, it had a little too much silliness early on, before the tragic events which caused a change in the film’s tone.
Anyway, the whole point of this is if, like me, you’d sort of quit on these films or perhaps you are new to the genre then do give some serious consideration to picking up some more of these titles. Any experts or non-experts too want to list their favorites? I think I own about 40 of these right now but I’m looking to add another 30 or more in the comings few months. Now that I can count myself as a fan, I'd really like to see discussion of these films get a jump start here in this forum.
This is the “Old School Kung Fu” and not the “Shaw Bros” discussion so I suppose Huangmei Opera discussion would been frowned upon, right? Darned, I think my “blood ‘n guts” to the fore intent just got blown to pieces.