Something illogical about AOTS - plot hole *SPOILERS*
#1
Needs to contact an admin about multiple accounts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Something illogical about AOTS - plot hole *SPOILERS*
Anakin had dreams of Padme dying at childbirth. Because of those dreams he converted to the dark side. Padme died at childbirth because of his conversion.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
#3
Originally Posted by yummyyummy
Anakin had dreams of Padme dying at childbirth. Because of those dreams he converted to the dark side. Padme died at childbirth because of his conversion.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
#6
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Actually that was the whole point.
The thing that makes it so powerful for me is that his mistake is what cost him the one thing he was trying to protect.
#7
DVD Talk God
i dont see a problem here
he was able to see the future
and it happened
yes, his choice made it happened.. but thats how the future works.
if you *really* thought you could see the future.. you would also have to *believe* that its destined to happen, and nothing you can do can control that
obviously palpatine did a better job of seeing the future.. since he planned all of it out
he was able to see the future
and it happened
yes, his choice made it happened.. but thats how the future works.
if you *really* thought you could see the future.. you would also have to *believe* that its destined to happen, and nothing you can do can control that
obviously palpatine did a better job of seeing the future.. since he planned all of it out
#8
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by yummyyummy
Yes it is ironic, but it is also impossible - makes no sense.
What is so confusing about this...Anakin saw the future...a future he caused. He thought that his choice would avoid that future, but instead he caused it. Just like Luke in ESB...he saw visions of his friends in pain, and instead of rescuing them, his friends had to rescue him.
#9
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: So Cal
Posts: 7,071
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From ESB:
Luke: I saw a city in the clouds. They were in pain.
Yoda: It is the future you see.
Luke: Will they die?
Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is future.
Luke: I've gotta go to them.
Yoda: Decide you must what to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? and if he does know...why doesn't he do something more about it than say: "fear of loss is the path to the dark side". I don't think that Anakin really cared about the dark side taking over him. I think he was just afraid of losing Padme, and was willing to do anything possible to stop it from happening.
Luke: I saw a city in the clouds. They were in pain.
Yoda: It is the future you see.
Luke: Will they die?
Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is future.
Luke: I've gotta go to them.
Yoda: Decide you must what to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? and if he does know...why doesn't he do something more about it than say: "fear of loss is the path to the dark side". I don't think that Anakin really cared about the dark side taking over him. I think he was just afraid of losing Padme, and was willing to do anything possible to stop it from happening.
#11
Needs to contact an admin about multiple accounts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by twikoff
i dont see a problem here
he was able to see the future
and it happened
yes, his choice made it happened.. but thats how the future works.
if you *really* thought you could see the future.. you would also have to *believe* that its destined to happen, and nothing you can do can control that
obviously palpatine did a better job of seeing the future.. since he planned all of it out
he was able to see the future
and it happened
yes, his choice made it happened.. but thats how the future works.
if you *really* thought you could see the future.. you would also have to *believe* that its destined to happen, and nothing you can do can control that
obviously palpatine did a better job of seeing the future.. since he planned all of it out
#12
DVD Talk Godfather
Originally Posted by Superboy
From ESB:
Luke: I saw a city in the clouds. They were in pain.
Yoda: It is the future you see.
Luke: Will they die?
Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is future.
Luke: I've gotta go to them.
Yoda: Decide you must what to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? .
Luke: I saw a city in the clouds. They were in pain.
Yoda: It is the future you see.
Luke: Will they die?
Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is future.
Luke: I've gotta go to them.
Yoda: Decide you must what to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered.
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? .
#13
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Superboy
From ESB:
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? and if he does know...why doesn't he do something more about it than say: "fear of loss is the path to the dark side". I don't think that Anakin really cared about the dark side taking over him. I think he was just afraid of losing Padme, and was willing to do anything possible to stop it from happening.
What I don't get is that if Yoda can share visions of others through the force, then why doesn't he know that Anakin is having these visions? and if he does know...why doesn't he do something more about it than say: "fear of loss is the path to the dark side". I don't think that Anakin really cared about the dark side taking over him. I think he was just afraid of losing Padme, and was willing to do anything possible to stop it from happening.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I view this in one of two ways.
It could be a future that was fated to happen no matter what. Much like Oedipus, who is fated to kill his father and marry his mother. No matter what Oedipus tries to do to avoid this fate, he simply can't, and it comes true. So perhaps Anakin was also screwed no matter what, and Palpatine just used Anakin's dream to his advantage.
Or, it's a POSSIBLE future, much like the one Luke sees in Empire when he experiences Han and Leia in pain. In this example, Anakin makes decisions that cause this future to happen. Perhaps if he hadn't chosen the dark side, this possible future ("always in motion, is the future") wouldn't have come true.
-HM
It could be a future that was fated to happen no matter what. Much like Oedipus, who is fated to kill his father and marry his mother. No matter what Oedipus tries to do to avoid this fate, he simply can't, and it comes true. So perhaps Anakin was also screwed no matter what, and Palpatine just used Anakin's dream to his advantage.
Or, it's a POSSIBLE future, much like the one Luke sees in Empire when he experiences Han and Leia in pain. In this example, Anakin makes decisions that cause this future to happen. Perhaps if he hadn't chosen the dark side, this possible future ("always in motion, is the future") wouldn't have come true.
-HM
#15
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by yummyyummy
But he was seeing this future at the time he hadn't yet made those choices. It was his visions of THAT future that caused him to make those choices that lead to that future. It is a paradox. A form of the chicken-egg problem. It's common in stories with time-travel and constitutes weak story telling. The only possible explanation is that Palpatine had caused him to have those visions in the first place to manipulate him towards the dark side (that's if he had been able to actually see the future and it's possible forms...) That is not implied in any episode. We are led to understand that he is simply very cunning and is able to manupulate the events (present) in such a way that all outcomes assure his victory.
#17
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
I agree that there is no problem. Of course you could always say that since time travel/seeing the future is not reality, it make no sense to hold it to the standards of time and space as we know it now. Maybe if time travel/seeing the future ever does happen, it will be b/c we find out everything we thought was true in fact was wrong.
Who is to say that Palpatine wasn't the one to plant those thoughts in his head? Palp saw a future path that would turn Anakin to the dark side and went with it. Anakin then started down a slippery slope that ended in all that he cared for being lost and he then had nothing left but the dark side.
Who is to say that Palpatine wasn't the one to plant those thoughts in his head? Palp saw a future path that would turn Anakin to the dark side and went with it. Anakin then started down a slippery slope that ended in all that he cared for being lost and he then had nothing left but the dark side.
#18
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
ORACLE: I'd ask you to sit down, but you're not going to anyway. And don't worry about the vase.
NEO: What vase?
[turns to look around and his elbow knocks a vase from the table. It breaks against the linoleum floor.]
ORACLE: The vase.
NEO: I'm sorry.
ORACLE: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
NEO: How did you know...?
ORACLE: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.
NEO: What vase?
[turns to look around and his elbow knocks a vase from the table. It breaks against the linoleum floor.]
ORACLE: The vase.
NEO: I'm sorry.
ORACLE: I said don't worry about it. I'll get one of my kids to fix it.
NEO: How did you know...?
ORACLE: What's really going to bake your noodle later on is, would you still have broken it if I hadn't said anything.
#19
Premium Member
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Grazing in a field somewhere...
Posts: 23,630
Received 695 Likes
on
465 Posts
Originally Posted by yummyyummy
But he was seeing this future at the time he hadn't yet made those choices. It was his visions of THAT future that caused him to make those choices that lead to that future. It is a paradox. A form of the chicken-egg problem. It's common in stories with time-travel and constitutes weak story telling. The only possible explanation is that Palpatine had caused him to have those visions in the first place to manipulate him towards the dark side (that's if he had been able to actually see the future and it's possible forms...) That is not implied in any episode. We are led to understand that he is simply very cunning and is able to manupulate the events (present) in such a way that all outcomes assure his victory.
Yummy.
#21
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by yummyyummy
Anakin had dreams of Padme dying at childbirth. Because of those dreams he converted to the dark side. Padme died at childbirth because of his conversion.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
This is totally wrong and makes no sense. It is a paradox and a totally lame way to tell the story.
This sort of storytelling device is pretty common -- it's called FATE. By trying to stop an event you cause it to happen. There's nothing illogical or pardoxical about it.
And it's hardly weak storytelling.
#22
DVD Talk Legend
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Land of the Lobstrosities
Posts: 10,300
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
In both of the first two movies Padme was at the heart of epic battles, and escaped unharmed, but she does nothing for the entire EpIII and dies because it's convenient.
The "lost the will to live" explanation was horribly weak. If that were possible I wouldn't have made it past the Padme-Anakin "love" scene.
The "lost the will to live" explanation was horribly weak. If that were possible I wouldn't have made it past the Padme-Anakin "love" scene.
#23
Moderator
"Wizard..."
#25
Needs to contact an admin about multiple accounts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bboisvert
Wow, have you ever read any myths? Fairy tales?
This sort of storytelling device is pretty common -- it's called FATE. By trying to stop an event you cause it to happen. There's nothing illogical or pardoxical about it.
And it's hardly weak storytelling.
This sort of storytelling device is pretty common -- it's called FATE. By trying to stop an event you cause it to happen. There's nothing illogical or pardoxical about it.
And it's hardly weak storytelling.
The response quoting Matrix had a similar example, but in that case the logic is straightforward. Oracle knew that Morpheus would break the vase when she warned him about it.
To respond to your response, consider this: Why would anyone feel compelled to try to prevent an event from happening if the event wouldn't normally happen anyway? Where is the compulsion coming from?