KillerQ

Hey all,

I am huge into the home theater scene, and plan on getting a Mits: ws-65315, which is a great TV - but since i have never dealt with projectors, i don't know much about them...that's why i am asking you...

I have a friend who is interested in a Front projector for his basement. Now, he doesn't know the difference between s-video and RCA input, so that should set the playing field. Anyway, he said he was looking at the toshiba s20u. The max res. is 800x600 and since it's only $700, I would think that it is made for computer presentations. However, since it has rca and svideo input, it could be used for dvd's and TV.

What exactly is the diff. between these "cheap" $700 units that are mostly made for computers and the $1500+ ones that are clearly made for home theater?

If the projector doesn't have 3:2 pulldown, will it still be able to show movies in widescreen properly? I feel silly knowing so much about everything else, and nothing about projectors....

once again, if he's not a videophile, will this projector make him happy? I just would like to know what distinguishes the low end computer models from the high end theater models....

Thanks guys,

Matt

Sdallnct

I'm not expert and don't play one on TV. While I learned everything I needed to know about life from Star Trek, I learned everything about Video from DVD Talk and the AVSForums. AVS has an "under $3,500 digital projector forum" here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forum...?s=&forumid=68

Note that $3,500 is MSRP, not street price. They do not talk street price over there.

I knew nothing and I mean nothing about PJ's when I decided I wanted one. And it took a lot of reading an planning, but once all put together, I find it not really any harder then any other display device to use. There are several great folks here that really help lower my learning curve.

While no longer considered the "ultimate" in low cost PJ, I would look at picking up a refurbished X1. You should be able to get one pretty easily in the $600 range or so. Even tho no longer considered the ultimate (for one thing it is no longer available new), it can still stand up to many PJ out there and is solid even compared to newer designs. But IMHO the best thing about the X1 is that there is so much information about it on the web. For example the X1 was designed for business use, but drew a huge following for HT usage. When Infocus saw this they came out with the almost identical 4800 for HT usage and charged a lot more. You can download the 4800 firmware to the X1 and get most of the benefits of the 4800 for the cost of the X1. Don't get me wrong this is not something that MUST be done, but just goes to show one of the many, many things that can be found out about the X1 if you look.

Slayer2005

"What exactly is the diff. between these "cheap" $700 units that are mostly made for computers and the $1500+ ones that are clearly made for home theater?"

Contrast, brightness, gamma, black level, sometimes the native aspect ratio and resolution. Those $1500 "home theater" projectors you are referring to are probably some of the 720p LCDs or the 1024x768 DLPs. A good SVGA (800x600 4:3 or 854x480 16:9) home theater pj like the rez on the projector you're currently looking will cost a lot less than $1500.

Board room projectors just do not look right for home theater. Most will have worse colors, blacks and be too bright for home theater. They will also usually have horrendous looking dark scenes.

Do not consider the Toshiba. Business projectors are not ideal for home theater, especially when great home theater projectors today are becoming really cheap. Here is what should be considered at this time:

Infocus 4805
Optoma H31

and if you really want to go cheap you could get Infocus X1. It can be had for $500-$600 (has a faroudja processor too). Personally, I'd pay the extra money for the Infocus 4805 or Optoma H31 now due to the improved contrast, colors & blacks. They are quite step up and the X1 used to cost as high as $1,600. I paid $1,000 for mine last year. Now for the same price or less you can have a big improvement in picture quality over the X1.

The 4805 & H31 (the X1 will too since he's new) will make him grin from ear to ear. And you can get them all for about a grand or less. I've seen the Infocus 4805 go for as low as $800 and it will wipe the floor with the projector you are currently looking at. The 4805 and H31 are also native 16:9 widescreen and the infocus has a faroudja processor that is found on some of the best progressive dvd players. Both the 4805 and H31 will resemble a very large plasma TV. The 4805 and H31 have a new "Dark Chip" technlogy which helps to make the blacks darker.

"If the projector doesn't have 3:2 pulldown, will it still be able to show movies in widescreen properly? I feel silly knowing so much about everything else, and nothing about projectors...."

All digital projectors are native progressive like a pc monitor, but only some have good video processors like the faroudja chip. The 4805 has one of those. All of these projectors I listed will display the proper aspect ratio when set up. For anamorphic DVDs your friend simply needs to set his dvd player to "widescreen", "wide" or "16:9" and the projector to 16:9 too. 4:3 projectors will have bars on the top and bottom; a 16:9 projector like the 4805/H31 will not, because they're native widescreen.

kvrdave

I tend to think that nearly any front projector will make a person happier than a big screen tv, provided they have the space. I have the Infocus X1 and it is a max res. of 800x600 and is 4x3 ratio. Also, it is incredible for hooking up your computer to, watching dvds through the computer, etc. You can take a look at what I did here

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384579

X

Not from what I've seen. There are plenty of projectors that don't have good black levels and exhibit distracting screen door effects unless you're so far away from them that the big screen would have a larger apparent screen size.

Lethal Nemesis

What's the "screen door effect"?

Sdallnct

Sorry X since you kicked me out of the DVD Talk forum I'm not with you, I against you!

Since I got a PJ it is a totally different movie watching experience. For example I have seen Matrix Reloaded at least a dozen times. Yet the 1st time I watched it on my 93" WS it was almost like watching a new movie. A few minutes ago I completed the install of my rear theater seats and was having a beer and watching the basketball game. Even on SD TNT it was a different experience. Sure it could be better, but I LOVE it!

I realize black levels are the "holy grail" of watching video. I have gone up to my local high end HT store and watched their CRT RP's that did indeed have excellent blacks, and even watched their $10,000 PJ's on $2,000 screen and agree it was better then my poor discountinued X1 w/home made screen. But IMHO, black levels are only a piece of the pie. I agree "all things being equal" I'd love to have better black levels. But rarely are "all things equal". There are costs, space and other issues to deal with.

While I certainly agree that anyone looking to put together a nice system should decide what is important to them, at the very least PJ's now are a viable option that should be considered in most cases. At the most is can re-open your entire DVD collection, let your share your experience with a lot of people, and darn if it is just really cool!

X

That's because you got an inexpensive DLP projector and not an inexpensive LCD one (largely eliminating the screen door effect) and appear to prefer size over detail in black scenes.

And that's fine. I was just commenting on the statement "nearly any front projector will make a person happier than a big screen tv" because I think the choice of the projector is important. And we haven't even mentioned the rainbow effect with low-end DLPs which, if susceptible to it, could drive a person to prefer watching on a direct view TV.

Spiky

Sdallnct,
You got a decent PJ. There are some that are NOT decent for HT. Period.

DLP still has SDE in the low res models. LCD is worse, but I can't stand the X1 or 4805 because of the SDE at anything under 2x screen width viewing distance. The resolution just isn't enough to see it properly. I had to go for HD res because of this. And other reasons, of course.

kvrdave

Bah, every time I go to a theater (which is becoming very rare) I notice how poor the image is, whether it be definition because I sit too close, black levels, or artifacts. No TV is perfect, but every movie I watch on my low end FP is vastly superior to what I see in theaters.

Now, the rainbow thing could be true. Fortunately, with just a 2x wheel, I don't notice them. The only screen door effect I seem to notice is very minor, and is only when I am online against a white background like this. Even then, I rarely notice it.

Sdallnct

X and Spiky,

Don't get me wrong, I may be new but I know better. I know the X1 is not the 2nd coming of sliced bread. I bought the X1 to learn with. I got into an arguement with someone somewhere (maybe another thread) where they stated that even tho the X1 is cheap, you have to account for the cost of the bulb. For me, I could see upgrading to a new PJ (maybe HD) before the bulb even blows!

But Front Projection is such a unique experience. I agree, it may not be better, just what I prefer. And maybe only right now as I'm fairly new to it. And I do hope to get a better picture (I think I'm going to upgrade the firmware on the projector). All I'm saying is for a reasonable cost, and just a little work you can get at the very least a very decent front projection system. You really couldn't say that just a few years ago.

Oh and yes, I'm firmly in the camp of "size matters".

Dead

If you put the emphasis on nearly and take a person as the generic concept, I would tend to agree with Dave. Not that your observations are incorrect, but you (and probably most people *here*) are going to look at the image much more critically that most people from the general population.

For example, last year a group of friends and myself rented a big screen TV and took it to a halfway house where we were throwing a Super Bowl party for the residents. They had a great time and enjoyed the RPTV just fine, but my friends and I came to the conclustion that lugging it in was a ton of work. This year we threw the same type of party but instead of renting an RPTV, I borrowed a fairly dated projector (LCD, 800 lumens, 300:1 contrast) from work. Not only were the residents amazed by the image that this poorly spec'd projector, but so was I. Sure, an X1, and even moreso the 4805 or H31, can produce a much better image... but, the fact is, not a soul in that house would have preferred the RPTV over the projector.

Sure, there are things to consider to make the *best* projector choice for a given situation... space, light control, rainbow, SDE, etc. But, I have little doubt that KillerQ's friend would be mesmerized be nearly any current projector model.


As Slayer2005 mentioned, the price difference is generally due to things like "Contrast, brightness, gamma, black level, sometimes the native aspect ratio and resolution." I might throw in additional settings and the fact that HT projectors may be "pre-tuned" for video as opposed to presentations.

I suspect that if probably would. Since you are his friend and want the best for him, I think you should mention to him that he can do much better than that particular model though.

Do you know if $700 is the most he wants to spend? If so, is he willing to go with a refurbished or used projector? Having information like this would make it easier for us to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the projectors in his price range.

KillerQ

Thanks for the info guys..... I think he wants to stay under $1000......

Dead

If he's willing to go with an open box or refurb, then he could get a 4805...

http://www.bestbuypcs.com/store/cgi-...4805&ovtac=PPC


http://www.techforless.com/cgi-bin/t...5?mv_pc=nextag

Also, at one point Costco had a special on brand new ones with a free screen for $999 after rebate. So if he's willing to wait and watch he may be able to do even better that the deals listed above.

Spiky

Costco still sells the 4805 with screen for 1199. I realize that's over a grand, but it's not bad for starting out. You do have to consider the screen, too. DIY screens are an option and are covered really well in the appropriate forum at AVS, but they will almost always cost at least $50-100. Factor it in.

Dead

Woot (http://www.woot.com/) has the refurbished 4805 for $799.99 today *with* a 76" screen... shipping is only $5. So for $804.99 you can get a very nice projector with screen. The only possible drawback is the shorter warranty that comes with a refurbished item.

Spiky

That's a great deal if you are willing to do refurb.

westerbergrules

I bought a Hitachi Home1 on ebay and am very satisfied with the picture in a completely light controlled enviroment. Check around and these can be had for about $600. These are LCD (no rainbows), native 16:9, and have a huge zoom and lens shift for easy placement. The resolution is low, but its great for DVD with little or no scaling required.

Lethal Nemesis

Ahh, that 4805 on woot is tempting because that's the pj I want.. I know refurbs are recertified by the manufacturer (right?), so do you think I should go for this or spend the extra $499 for a new one? Refurbs come with a fresh lamp, correct?

Spiky

You should probably ask Infocus those questions. I never trust hearsay about issues like that.

Lethal Nemesis

Hey guys, once I get my 4805, I plan on projecting onto a white wall in the living room for the time being. I'm still pretty green, so please bear with me... does the white wall have any "gain"? How would I go about finding out? The reason I ask is I think you need to know the gain to figure out foot lamberts.

Spiky

I think you need a tool to figure out foot lamberts. Because it is affected by everything. The color of the screen, the ambient light, the color of your other walls and ceiling, etc. Gain of the white wall will depend on the precise color, but it will likely be around 1.0, or a little higher.

Are you planning on a black border around the screen area? It will help contrast and the edges look better.

Lethal Nemesis

I was reading the 4805 thread at AVS and people have been using the following formula to figure out ftL:

(lumens x gain) / sq ft of the screen

Since I don't know the gain of my white wall, I can't figure out the ftL and determine if I'll need a ND2. I'm guessing that I probably will need one, and I plan on ordering one anyway.

I'm currently in an apartment that I will be moving out of in September, so I don't plan on painting a black border or using Screen Goo or anything. When I move into my new apartment, I'll probably make a DIY screen, but for now, I plan on just projecting onto a white wall.

Spiky

The guys at AVS would be able to answer this stuff better, I'm a newbie, too. But you'd have to know the lumens. Mfgr ratings won't be correct for your setup, or necessarily any setup. It would all be estimates without a device to measure. I'd just get your filter at a place with a good return policy.

I am using a Parkland screen (usually stated as .95-1.1 gain by those who've measured) and a Tosh MT700 and it is just about right with the lights off and the lamp on low, so I haven't worried about a filter. For sports or other stuff where I don't care too much about the PQ, I can turn on lights. As long as they don't shine directly on the screen to wash it out, it is just a little less bright and contrasty, very watchable.

Try some 3" Duvetyne tape or something for a border. You should be able to just pull it off the wall when you move out. I got mine at rosebrand.com.

Lethal Nemesis

Thanks, Spiky. I'll check it out.