Should Spike Lee be making leaner movies? (Bamboozled)
03-08-05, 04:27 PM
#1
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Should Spike Lee be making leaner movies? (Bamboozled)
This is an off-shoot from the 'Final Cut' thread, as I thought my response didn't quite fit in there.
I'm quite a big fan of Spike Lee. Over the years he has made some of my favorite movies, Do The Right Thing, Mo Better Blues, Get On The Bus, Summer of Sam, The 25th Hour.
One film of his I enjoy quite a bit, is the TV satire Bamboozled. After I first watched it, I was reminded of that Godard quote: 'The best way to criticize a movie is by making a movie'. Bamboozled is Spike's criticism of black sit-coms, gangsta rap, and Quentin Tarantino peppering his films with the word ***********.
Still, I enjoy Bamboozled mostly as eye candy. It's film with a lot of style, that is agressivly commanding my attention, but sacrificing it's substance to do so. I think the film is confusing, too long, poorly written, but it is never boring.
There is much to praise in the movie. Both Damon Wayans and the minstrel shows. There is something mesmorizing about racist images. It is hard to ignore the power they hold. During the end credits, when we see all the pickaninny knick-knacks, you can feel the condensation and complete disregard for humanity.
I thought the movie's ministrel show was unable to copy the effect of the real minstel images. Spike Lee allows them to be entertaining and artful, which would seem to me to negate the thesis of the movie. If the minstrel show demonstrates talent, and humor, I cannot see how Mantan and Sleep and Eat are really being demeaned. I think the New Millenium Minstrel Show was a success inspite of the blackface and the stereotypical names and settings, not because of it.
It is an entertaining movie, full of interesting performances and cool sequences, but they come at the expense of telling a coherent story. I can't identify the mood swings of Delacroix from one scene to the next. Infact, it wasn't until I listened to Spike's commentary that I realized what Delacroix's feelings were for most of the movie.
I understand the minstrel show metaphor, but I don't think it worked. I was actually more dazzeled by it then offended.
I would have rather had scenes that clarified Delacroix's self-loathing, and explored how the show was wearing Manray and Womack down. Instead of the extended scenes with the rappers, and the commercials, and Paul Moony doing stand up. All this stuff was great on it's own, but once Lee mixes it together, the subplots begin to drown out the core of the story. My main characters have become so dilluted that I've lost track of their story, and begin to treat it with confusion and indifference.
By the time the movie ended, I wasn't sure what I'd had for lunch, let alone what Spike was so angry at.
This overstuffing hurts so many of his movies. I admire the focus of something like Get On The Bus, which manages about 12 different characters and stories. Or Mo Better Blues which is able to stop for full length musical performances several times without the loss of attention to the main story.
I admire Lee as a craftsman. I think he has made some of the best movies over the last twenty years. Yet it seems that he is more likely to succeed when he is working from someone else's script or book. When it's his own script, he seems like the vacationer, trying to cram two weeks of souveners into their carry-on bag.
I love the balls out cinema of his more excessive movies. I just hate seeing my attachment to the story and the characters lost in the blurr of lights and loud music.
I'm quite a big fan of Spike Lee. Over the years he has made some of my favorite movies, Do The Right Thing, Mo Better Blues, Get On The Bus, Summer of Sam, The 25th Hour.
One film of his I enjoy quite a bit, is the TV satire Bamboozled. After I first watched it, I was reminded of that Godard quote: 'The best way to criticize a movie is by making a movie'. Bamboozled is Spike's criticism of black sit-coms, gangsta rap, and Quentin Tarantino peppering his films with the word ***********.
Still, I enjoy Bamboozled mostly as eye candy. It's film with a lot of style, that is agressivly commanding my attention, but sacrificing it's substance to do so. I think the film is confusing, too long, poorly written, but it is never boring.
There is much to praise in the movie. Both Damon Wayans and the minstrel shows. There is something mesmorizing about racist images. It is hard to ignore the power they hold. During the end credits, when we see all the pickaninny knick-knacks, you can feel the condensation and complete disregard for humanity.
I thought the movie's ministrel show was unable to copy the effect of the real minstel images. Spike Lee allows them to be entertaining and artful, which would seem to me to negate the thesis of the movie. If the minstrel show demonstrates talent, and humor, I cannot see how Mantan and Sleep and Eat are really being demeaned. I think the New Millenium Minstrel Show was a success inspite of the blackface and the stereotypical names and settings, not because of it.
It is an entertaining movie, full of interesting performances and cool sequences, but they come at the expense of telling a coherent story. I can't identify the mood swings of Delacroix from one scene to the next. Infact, it wasn't until I listened to Spike's commentary that I realized what Delacroix's feelings were for most of the movie.
I understand the minstrel show metaphor, but I don't think it worked. I was actually more dazzeled by it then offended.
I would have rather had scenes that clarified Delacroix's self-loathing, and explored how the show was wearing Manray and Womack down. Instead of the extended scenes with the rappers, and the commercials, and Paul Moony doing stand up. All this stuff was great on it's own, but once Lee mixes it together, the subplots begin to drown out the core of the story. My main characters have become so dilluted that I've lost track of their story, and begin to treat it with confusion and indifference.
By the time the movie ended, I wasn't sure what I'd had for lunch, let alone what Spike was so angry at.
This overstuffing hurts so many of his movies. I admire the focus of something like Get On The Bus, which manages about 12 different characters and stories. Or Mo Better Blues which is able to stop for full length musical performances several times without the loss of attention to the main story.
I admire Lee as a craftsman. I think he has made some of the best movies over the last twenty years. Yet it seems that he is more likely to succeed when he is working from someone else's script or book. When it's his own script, he seems like the vacationer, trying to cram two weeks of souveners into their carry-on bag.
I love the balls out cinema of his more excessive movies. I just hate seeing my attachment to the story and the characters lost in the blurr of lights and loud music.
Last edited by Crocker Jarmen; 03-08-05 at 04:32 PM.
03-08-05, 05:06 PM
#2
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Very nice post Crocker!
I prefer crazy Spike Lee. There are plenty fine narrative-based features in the land. Lee's expression of cinema can be so captivating, I'd rather have that than him struggling to make a linear work.
But I'm hardly an expert on Spike Lee. Including Do the Right Thing, I've only seen his stuff from Summer of Sam on, not even Malcolm X.
I prefer crazy Spike Lee. There are plenty fine narrative-based features in the land. Lee's expression of cinema can be so captivating, I'd rather have that than him struggling to make a linear work.
But I'm hardly an expert on Spike Lee. Including Do the Right Thing, I've only seen his stuff from Summer of Sam on, not even Malcolm X.
03-09-05, 09:47 AM
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I'd recommand checking out some of his earlier, 'crazy' Spike movies: Jungle Fever has some terrific scenes, and a kick ass performance by Samuel L Jackson as a crack addict. Clockers also has many fine moments, marred only by comparison to its source material and a silly cameo by Spike.
03-09-05, 10:28 AM
#5
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Thanks for the recommendations Crocker. Jungle Fever's always been one I meant to see. And I never gave Clockers a fair chance, only saw a few moments from it.
Back to your original post, there was one thing you wrote that struck me:
This is indicative of the charge Lee loads into his images. To make the minstrel show blatantly offensive is an easy way out. To film those sequences so beautifully and with such earnest attention to the entertainment aspect shows how Lee wants to engage the audience, to elicit an emotional reaction, rather than preach from his soapbox.
Back to your original post, there was one thing you wrote that struck me:
I understand the minstrel show metaphor, but I don't think it worked. I was actually more dazzled by it than offended.
03-09-05, 11:50 AM
#7
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IMO, Lee began growing his overblown and inflated ego right after Do The Right Thing became a critical hit. And hasn't made a film as memorable since.
His overgrown head got in the way by believing he was the next big thing in Hollywood and started critisizing all things wrong with White Hollywood Power including publicly commenting (along with his power trips - see DTRT trashcan through the window scene - to other African Americans in the industry) that no one but an African American should direct a film about Malcolm X (a truly overrated, overlong, and overbloated film, again IMO), calls out Jackson for using the 'n' word for dramatic effect in Pulp Fiction, then goes on to make garbage like Girl 6, boring 'been there done that' propaganda such as Get On The Bus, and barely memorable films such as He Got Game and Summer Of Sam then goes on to make a film that has been raved as one of the worst films of 2004. 25th Hour was decent, but this was because of Norton's performance as nothing else in the film was all that great.
His latest stunt saddens me to the utmost as he stated on the Academy red carpet that "we better win some tonight." Poor, poor Spike. The 60s was 40 odd years ago.
Blah. His name leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I believe a little controversy is fine and stating your opinion is what the first amendment is for, but Lee does it the wrong way. The things he says and does may make him think he is preaching to the choir, but it's just turning more and more people off and it isn't helping him at all.
So if by leaner you mean not shoving his (and what he believes to be all of black Americans) views down our throats, then leaner he should.
His overgrown head got in the way by believing he was the next big thing in Hollywood and started critisizing all things wrong with White Hollywood Power including publicly commenting (along with his power trips - see DTRT trashcan through the window scene - to other African Americans in the industry) that no one but an African American should direct a film about Malcolm X (a truly overrated, overlong, and overbloated film, again IMO), calls out Jackson for using the 'n' word for dramatic effect in Pulp Fiction, then goes on to make garbage like Girl 6, boring 'been there done that' propaganda such as Get On The Bus, and barely memorable films such as He Got Game and Summer Of Sam then goes on to make a film that has been raved as one of the worst films of 2004. 25th Hour was decent, but this was because of Norton's performance as nothing else in the film was all that great.
His latest stunt saddens me to the utmost as he stated on the Academy red carpet that "we better win some tonight." Poor, poor Spike. The 60s was 40 odd years ago.
Blah. His name leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I believe a little controversy is fine and stating your opinion is what the first amendment is for, but Lee does it the wrong way. The things he says and does may make him think he is preaching to the choir, but it's just turning more and more people off and it isn't helping him at all.
So if by leaner you mean not shoving his (and what he believes to be all of black Americans) views down our throats, then leaner he should.
Last edited by conscience; 03-09-05 at 11:53 AM.
03-09-05, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
The 25th Hour is my favorite Spike Lee film. His portrayal of a drug dealer going to jail was accurate and unforgiving unlike the liberal circle-jerk that is American Beauty.
03-09-05, 08:41 PM
#9
Originally Posted by majorjoe23
Nice threadcrap.
Anyhow, I somewhat agree conscience. I went to a chat with Spike Lee and my impression is that he is a very angry man. Though I have to give him props for speaking out against the whole rapper/gangsta culture and blaming African-Americans for their own missteps. It does rub me wrong how Spike sees everything as black and white issue and never people as equals.
03-10-05, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
How exactly? I said The 25th Hour was my favorite Spike Lee movie. Spike Lee didn't direct American Beauty.
.
.
And yes, the 25th Hour was a very accurate portrayal of what happens to drug dealers. All drug dealers are given a 24 hour grace period to party and get their affairs in order before being sent to jail without trial.
Keep in mind that I enjoyed the 25th Hour.
03-10-05, 05:02 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by majorjoe23
You don't see how calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" in a thread about Spike Lee movies is a threadcrap?
A "threadcrap" is a term we've come to use here at DVD Talk for a post (usually negative) that is off the topic of the thread in which it is posted, or criticizes/ridicules the thread starter or the thread itself. Threadcraps usually have no reasoning behind them, but this is not always the case. This definition is not meant to be all inclusive, but it is meant to give you a general idea of what the term means. Ultimately, the moderators hold the final word on what is or is not a threadcrap.
Edit: This is different than a hijack, in which a thread (intentionally or unintentionally) happens to go off in a different direction than originally intended, usually because of someone asking a question related to the topic of the thread. It isn't against the rules, but it isn't exactly ideal, either.
...so how exactly is his post a threadcrap?
03-10-05, 06:03 PM
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Fine, I'll cede the point, but be prepared for me to make comments about "Conservative daisy chains" when discussing Clint Eastwood films in Woody Allen threads.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
Last edited by majorjoe23; 03-10-05 at 06:13 PM.
03-10-05, 06:06 PM
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Is Spike Lee directing this thread? Stop wondering off-topic Spike!
03-10-05, 06:14 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by majorjoe23
Fine, I'll cede the point, but be prepared for me to make comments about "Conservative daisy chains" when discussing Clint Eastwood films in Woody Allen threads.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
03-10-05, 06:28 PM
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Well, "liberal circle jerk" isn't exactly positive, nor does it have anything to do with Spike Lee movies. It's needless politicizing in a thread that had nothing to do with politics or American Beauty.
"A "threadcrap" is a term we've come to use here at DVD Talk for a post (usually negative) that is off the topic of the thread in which it is posted."
"A "threadcrap" is a term we've come to use here at DVD Talk for a post (usually negative) that is off the topic of the thread in which it is posted."
03-10-05, 07:16 PM
#20
Crocker...can you post or summarize some interesting things Lee said in the commentary for Bamboozled? I am going to watch this film again this weekend. I saw it when it hit theaters, but I remember coming away disappointed.
03-11-05, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by PacMan2006
Crocker...can you post or summarize some interesting things Lee said in the commentary for Bamboozled?
The Bamboozled commentary is one of his strangest. At one point he tells some bizarr story about Tommy Hillfiger coming up to him on the street, distrought at being made fun of in Bamboozled. Spike even puts on a Tommy voice.
At another point Spike says some woman wrote that he cast Damon Waynes because he hated In Living Colour, and this was some form of revenge. Sounding as outraged as if this had happened yesterday, Spike starts yelling 'I fucking called her up! I said 'Where the fuck did you get I didn't like 'In Living Color'? Why don't you get your fucking facts straight!' It kinda reminded me of the time Spike heard that Urban Ledgend about Liz Clairborn saying she didn't want blacks wearing her clothing, and then ran around yelling the need to boycott. What was that about 'getting your fucking facts straight', Spike?
A much better source of information about the movie is the hour long making-of on the DVD. It spends a lot of time on the TV show rehersals, the digital video shooting. And there are some pretty good interviews with the cast about Minstrel shows.
It's an interesting movie, but I'm still inclined to consider it a failure. If you do watch it again PacMan2006 please post your thoughts. I'd be interested to hear what you thought of it.
03-11-05, 10:55 AM
#23
Originally Posted by majorjoe23
Fine, I'll cede the point, but be prepared for me to make comments about "Conservative daisy chains" when discussing Clint Eastwood films in Woody Allen threads.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
EDIT: I've changed my mind, I would argue that calling American Beauty a "Liberal circle jerk" is negative and off-topic.
03-11-05, 11:28 AM
#24
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Boy some people don't 'get it'. The threadcrap earlier in this thread was an obvious threadcrap.
If someone had went into another thread and went off topic calling another film(which does'nt even deal with the same issues as the film being discussed) and called it "Conservative facist hate propoganda for the brainwashed masses". I bet there would be a huge uproar over it and no one would think otherwise.
But someone comes along and does a similar thing calling a film a 'liberal circle jerk' and no one thinks that was a threadcrap?
Oh I forgot,bashing liberals is 'in' and the moment. But god forbid,someone says a a similar thing about conservatives.
btw....American Beauty was a crappy film,but not because it was a 'liberal circle jerk'. It was just dull full of itself pretentious garbage that like many Hollywood films,pretends to be 'artistic' and 'about something important' while playing it as a safe and tame as can be,while pandering to audiences who need everything explained too them.
As for Spike,I loved Do the Right Thing and have'nt like a single film from him since then. Malcom X was bloated and overrated,while everything else he has done is even worse(ie-boring,lacks focus etc).
If someone had went into another thread and went off topic calling another film(which does'nt even deal with the same issues as the film being discussed) and called it "Conservative facist hate propoganda for the brainwashed masses". I bet there would be a huge uproar over it and no one would think otherwise.
But someone comes along and does a similar thing calling a film a 'liberal circle jerk' and no one thinks that was a threadcrap?
Oh I forgot,bashing liberals is 'in' and the moment. But god forbid,someone says a a similar thing about conservatives.
btw....American Beauty was a crappy film,but not because it was a 'liberal circle jerk'. It was just dull full of itself pretentious garbage that like many Hollywood films,pretends to be 'artistic' and 'about something important' while playing it as a safe and tame as can be,while pandering to audiences who need everything explained too them.
As for Spike,I loved Do the Right Thing and have'nt like a single film from him since then. Malcom X was bloated and overrated,while everything else he has done is even worse(ie-boring,lacks focus etc).
03-19-05, 12:32 PM
#25
OK, this will obviously have spoilers...
I just rewatched Bamboozled...I kind of feel the same way as I did four years ago.
It's a great premise for a movie...Spike always directs good concepts regardless of their outcome. I actually thought the movie was great up until the hour and thrity mark.
Something happens in Lee movies where for some reason, he doesn't end the films to my satisfaction at all. In this film, same thing. For example, all of the sudden in the film, Jada Pinkett's character is having a romantic relationship with Savion Glover's character. Throughout the entire film, it was strictly platonic. And when we do find out they have feelings for each other, they are getting in an arguement. It just feels out of place and frankly irrelevant to the storyline.
But my biggest issue was with all the violence at the end. The Mau Mau's capturing "Mantan" and broadcasting his death over the internet? What was with this? Maybe it's some kind of metaphor Lee was going for, but I didn't get it. It came across as if he had no idea where to take this movie. And then Pinkett comes in with a gun to kill Damon Wayans...I just didn't like this at all. It felt so poorly done for a movie that was well done up to these points.
Lastly, what do people think was the reason to give Wayan's character that French accent?
Thoughts?
I just rewatched Bamboozled...I kind of feel the same way as I did four years ago.
It's a great premise for a movie...Spike always directs good concepts regardless of their outcome. I actually thought the movie was great up until the hour and thrity mark.
Something happens in Lee movies where for some reason, he doesn't end the films to my satisfaction at all. In this film, same thing. For example, all of the sudden in the film, Jada Pinkett's character is having a romantic relationship with Savion Glover's character. Throughout the entire film, it was strictly platonic. And when we do find out they have feelings for each other, they are getting in an arguement. It just feels out of place and frankly irrelevant to the storyline.
But my biggest issue was with all the violence at the end. The Mau Mau's capturing "Mantan" and broadcasting his death over the internet? What was with this? Maybe it's some kind of metaphor Lee was going for, but I didn't get it. It came across as if he had no idea where to take this movie. And then Pinkett comes in with a gun to kill Damon Wayans...I just didn't like this at all. It felt so poorly done for a movie that was well done up to these points.
Lastly, what do people think was the reason to give Wayan's character that French accent?
Thoughts?