Troubling new TiVo news
10-29-04, 06:34 AM
#1
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Troubling new TiVo news
Buy a TiVo lately? Sometime in the next few months, your machine will quietly download a patch that makes it respond to a new copy protection scheme from software maker Macrovision. The app puts restrictions on how long your DVR can save certain kinds of shows - so far, just pay-per-view and video-on-demand programs. It's the first time your TiVo won't let you watch whatever you want, whenever you want. We asked TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn why he thinks Hollywood will settle for an inch when it can take a mile.
WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.
What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.
With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.
WIRED: TiVo has always been about empowering the viewer. Why change now?
ZINN: Macrovision changed its policy. So the question was, Do we want to have a Macrovision license with certain restrictions, or none at all? We decided that as long as the restrictions were limited to pay-per-view and video-on-demand, consumers would still have the choice. If they don't like a narrower window in which to view programming, they won't purchase it. That'll send a message to the content owners.
You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?
That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality. To innovate and give people more flexibility with broadcast content, we decided it was acceptable to allow content owners to apply protections to higher-value content.
What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.
That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.
With the cable companies in bed with the studios, TiVo could be the last line of defense for the DVR as we know it.
Sometimes I feel that way. We're aware of the danger, and the slippery slope. The danger is that DRM can tilt the balance of copyright so that ultimately there's no concept of fair use, because the content owners dictate what the rules are. But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want.
Not good, not good at all.
10-29-04, 09:21 AM
#3
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I'm not going to get worked up until it affects something other than pay-per-view stuff.
10-29-04, 09:51 AM
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I haven't bought a PPV since I started with Netflix. Plus, I have the DirecTiVo, so I doubt that it'll affect me anyway, since DirecTV won't do TiVo-to-Go or remote access.
Still, sad news in the TiVo world. I kinda figured it would happen eventually.
Still, sad news in the TiVo world. I kinda figured it would happen eventually.
10-29-04, 11:08 AM
#7
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Originally posted by Draven
I'm not going to get worked up until it affects something other than pay-per-view stuff.
I'm not going to get worked up until it affects something other than pay-per-view stuff.
10-29-04, 11:10 AM
#8
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Originally posted by Morf
I've never done PPV, and never plan to. In my opinion, it is a waste of money. This does not affect or trouble me at all.
I've never done PPV, and never plan to. In my opinion, it is a waste of money. This does not affect or trouble me at all.
10-29-04, 11:13 AM
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I think only pay-per-view will be affected for one reason. If you record a pay-per-view movie and don't delete it, you can watch it 50 times if you want without having to pay again (not that this is a bad thing) but the pay-per-view wants you to pay again if you want to watch it again.
10-29-04, 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by aintnosin
but the pay-per-view wants you to pay again if you want to watch it again.
but the pay-per-view wants you to pay again if you want to watch it again.
10-29-04, 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by Pistol Pete
Give an inch, take a mile.
Give an inch, take a mile.
Personally I think they're not only barking up the wrong tree, they're in the wrong forest. Tivo is not hurting pay-per-view movies. Cheap DVD players and services like Netflix are probably doing more to cut into their revenue than anything else.
10-29-04, 12:50 PM
#13
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Originally posted by aintnosin
I think only pay-per-view will be affected for one reason. If you record a pay-per-view movie and don't delete it, you can watch it 50 times if you want without having to pay again (not that this is a bad thing) but the pay-per-view wants you to pay again if you want to watch it again.
I think only pay-per-view will be affected for one reason. If you record a pay-per-view movie and don't delete it, you can watch it 50 times if you want without having to pay again (not that this is a bad thing) but the pay-per-view wants you to pay again if you want to watch it again.
10-29-04, 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by iggystar
But you can do this with a (gasp) VCR so what's the point?
But you can do this with a (gasp) VCR so what's the point?
10-29-04, 01:32 PM
#15
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As much as I disagree with their decision, it doesn't affect me in the least bit.
10-29-04, 04:12 PM
#18
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Originally posted by CarlitoBrown
I only see pirates being affected by this.
I only see pirates being affected by this.
If you're refering to extraction, that isn't really affected by this (at least not yet). Also, most people who extract from their hard drive do so in order to burn to a DVD (instead of having to use a VCR), and not for illegitimate reasons.
10-29-04, 05:06 PM
#19
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Originally posted by CarlitoBrown
I only see pirates being affected by this.
I only see pirates being affected by this.
I have a Dish Network PVR with a 120 GB hard drive. I have several movies that I have recorded when they were on over the last few months, but have not had the time to watch. I figure I'll catch up when everything is in reruns over the holiday season.
If these were pay-per-view movies, they might be deleted before I finally had time to watch them.
Isn't the whole idea of a PVR so that you can watch stuff when it's convenient for you?
10-29-04, 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by CarlitoBrown
I only see pirates being affected by this.
I only see pirates being affected by this.
By the way, if you really want to know why they would do this, two words that should be on mind: ON. DEMAND. Charging people for something they can already do is the dream.
10-29-04, 10:00 PM
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There's no reason why anyone should be paying money just to record the shows you want. Just use a computer, I do and don't have to pay Tivo any money for my recordings.
10-29-04, 10:41 PM
#22
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I'm much more worried about the rumors that at some point they may be disabling the ability to fast forward through commercials on recorded programs.
Now THAT would really make me angry.
Now THAT would really make me angry.
10-29-04, 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Tazwolff
There's no reason why anyone should be paying money just to record the shows you want. Just use a computer, I do and don't have to pay Tivo any money for my recordings.
There's no reason why anyone should be paying money just to record the shows you want. Just use a computer, I do and don't have to pay Tivo any money for my recordings.
Not to mention the fact that finding shows online isn't always perfect. If the show is too old or obscure, you're most likely out of luck, and most of the ways of acquiring any show online can often times take forever.
I pay $5 a month to Tivo and I can just set my box to record whatever I want it to and watch it when I feel like it. I don't have to hunt around online and then wait days for a single episode to finish downloading, then run a cable to my TV from the computer.
I'm much more worried about the rumors that at some point they may be disabling the ability to fast forward through commercials on recorded programs.
10-30-04, 01:07 AM
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Originally posted by xVladx
That's all well and good, but if you want to actually watch the shows on your TV you need to then invest in a TV out card and a long enough cable or a laptop.
Not to mention the fact that finding shows online isn't always perfect. If the show is too old or obscure, you're most likely out of luck, and most of the ways of acquiring any show online can often times take forever.
I pay $5 a month to Tivo and I can just set my box to record whatever I want it to and watch it when I feel like it. I don't have to hunt around online and then wait days for a single episode to finish downloading, then run a cable to my TV from the computer.
Yeah, that would seriously bother pretty much every Tivo owner, I imagine. I'd like to think that it's unlikely, though, as if Tivo started limiting their functionality, it would open the market up to a non-crippled competitor.
That's all well and good, but if you want to actually watch the shows on your TV you need to then invest in a TV out card and a long enough cable or a laptop.
Not to mention the fact that finding shows online isn't always perfect. If the show is too old or obscure, you're most likely out of luck, and most of the ways of acquiring any show online can often times take forever.
I pay $5 a month to Tivo and I can just set my box to record whatever I want it to and watch it when I feel like it. I don't have to hunt around online and then wait days for a single episode to finish downloading, then run a cable to my TV from the computer.
Yeah, that would seriously bother pretty much every Tivo owner, I imagine. I'd like to think that it's unlikely, though, as if Tivo started limiting their functionality, it would open the market up to a non-crippled competitor.
10-30-04, 11:10 PM
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Originally posted by Mr. Salty
I have a Dish Network PVR with a 120 GB hard drive. I have several movies that I have recorded when they were on over the last few months, but have not had the time to watch. I figure I'll catch up when everything is in reruns over the holiday season.
I have a Dish Network PVR with a 120 GB hard drive. I have several movies that I have recorded when they were on over the last few months, but have not had the time to watch. I figure I'll catch up when everything is in reruns over the holiday season.
If the movie had an expiration date, I'd be just as likely (if not moreso) to just not have recorded it in the first place (and, if it had been something off PPV rather than something off HBO, not paid to watch it in the first place. I'm not entirely sure how not getting a PPV fee at all really makes things better for the companies).