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Decline of the Star Trek Movies: I think I know why.... (Spoilers!!!)

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Decline of the Star Trek Movies: I think I know why.... (Spoilers!!!)

Old 09-30-04, 03:06 PM
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Decline of the Star Trek Movies: I think I know why.... (Spoilers!!!)

Spoilers ahead!!!

Ok, I enjoy Star Trek. I've always been a lover of Sci-Fi and Fantasy so Star Trek was one of my favorite franchises. But the last few movies have not faired well and I doubt we see another one in quite some time.

Why did this happen? What is the cause? Well, I don't know for sure but I have an idea. See what you think.

It is all about Major Events in the Star Trek Universe. Events that not only affect the movie they are in but also affect the Star Trek Universe as a whole. The good movies (most of them) had the Major Events. The bad ones did not. And when you have a couple of movies without the Major Events in a row, the series in general is hurt.

Here is what I mean.

Star Trek I: The Motion Picture - Event: The new Enterprise (sort of)
This movie is not regarded as one of the best and one of the reasons is not much happened. A new Enterprise is something of a Major Event but not really. What saved this movie is that is was the first one. (Of course I thought Voyager becoming aware and returning was cool)

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - Event: The Death of Spock

This movie is regarded as the best Star Trek movie featturing the original cast and look at why. Spock dies!!! A huge event in the Star Trek universe. Of course the plot was awesome too and all the action was included but the fact that Spock died in the best movie is not a coincidence

Star Trek III: The Search of Spock - Event: Destruction of Enterprise and Spock reborn (sort of)

This movie is really the only true sequel of the series. It continues the story of Star Trek II so its success is tied to the success of the that movie. Of course, Spock being reborn somewhat dampens the effect of Star Trek II but that movie was so well received it did not matter. The other event, the destruction of the enterprise, is enough to leave a mark on the Star Trek Universe and enough for this movie to be remembered fondly.

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home - Event: Star Trek visits Earth now (sort of)

This movie was well received and thought of fondly by most fans. It is the one movie that goes a little against my theory because nothing really big happens. I guess visiting Earth of today is something and helped the movie.

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier - Event: Nothing

Here is where my theory really starts to show. This movie is not one of the favorites and is regarded as not that well done. Why?? well besides some poor acting, directing and production value, NOTHING HAPPENS that is major. The Star Trek universe is not affected by the story and you don't remember anything that enlightens you about the universe. This is the beginning of the first decline.

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country - Event: Nothing

Again in this movie nothing big really happened. No one died. Nothing got invented or destroyed. It felt like a long episode although it was well done. But, since nothing really happened the movie is not remembered for anything extraordinary and thus is not looked upon as one of the best. The decline continues

Star Trek VII: Generations - Event: Death of Kirk, passing the torch to the TNG cast and an Enterprise is christened and destroyed

This one had major events. We learn how Kirk actually died (which is huge), the torch is passed to the new cast and a new Enterprise is not only christened on its maiden voyage but it is also destroyed. I really enjoyed this movie and those are the reasons why. Some don't regard it as one of the best but I disagree. Whatever you think about it, you still have to agree that is was the start of a short-lived revival in the excellence of Star Trek movies. It was great enough to start the incline.

Star Trek VIII: First Contact - Event: Invention of Warp Speed Travel and the human race's first contact with aliens

This movie is awesome!! Besides the Borg it also had the key major events listed above. The movie told a very realistic story of how warp speed was invented and how humans contacted aliens for the first time. Both things that we always wondered about and now we know. That was huge. I remember watching the movie and thinking "This is a good movie, the Borg are cool, the action is great, the Borg queen was a nice touch" but then when first contact was made at the end I thought "Wow, this is the best Star Trek movie ever. They really told us some things about the Star Trek universe that were interesting and things we always wanted to know. This is the height of the second revival.

Star Trek IX: Insurrection - Event: Nothing

This movie was the beginning of the final decline. Nothing major happens. It feels like a long episode. Some of the plot devices were cool but it doesn't matter. We didn't learn anything more about the Star Trek universe. You would have thought they would have learned that from First Contact.

Star Trek X: Nemesis - Event: Nothing

Two in a row with nothing happening. Killed the franchise. Again in this movie no one died, nothing was invented, etc. We didn't learn anything more that sparked our imagination about the universe and made us want more. We learned a little about the Picard character but not enough. So much potential has been lost.

Final Thoughts: They could have gone so many ways after First Contact. Set a movie on an alien world where we learn A LOT about one of the races like the Klingons or the Romulans etc. etc. Kill one of the major characters off in a dramatic and universe-affecting way. Give us more information about the structure or hierarchy of the Society. What are the closest systems to earth? How is the leader of the Free Universe chosen, etc. etc. They could have come up with something huge like they did with the first contact or invention of warp travel. Maybe how the transporters were invented or maybe a movie that really delved into and gave some unknown details about the technologies of the time. Phase guns, transporters, etc.

Well that is what I think. I am sure many of you will disagree with me especially on which movies were liked and which weren't. It was not my desire to upset anyone. I just know that this is the reason why I lost interest.

Let me know what you think
Old 09-30-04, 03:08 PM
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i thought data dies in nemisis.
Old 09-30-04, 03:26 PM
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You may be right about Data dying. What I would say about that is that Data is an android so you are never quite sure if he will come back or not. What I mean is the FINALITY of his death is not certain.

Very good point though. Maybe not enough to save the franchise from the decline though
Old 09-30-04, 03:34 PM
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And Klingons first begin to have favourable dealings with the Federation in The Undiscovered Country. That was big since it addressed what initially shocked Star Trek fans when the Next Generation first aired: a Klingon in a Federation starship.

Last edited by RocShemp; 09-30-04 at 03:37 PM.
Old 09-30-04, 03:43 PM
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The treaty between the Klingons and the Federation resulted from the events in Undiscovered Country. I think that was a pivitol moment in the Star Trek universe, and made TNG what it was, as well as Deep Space Nine, which dealt far more with the Khitomer Treaty (don't blast me for my spelling, I know it's not right). And Star Trek 6 is arguably perhaps the best original cast movie.

And Nemesis, in spite having a major event in Data sacrificing himself, really gained no ground because of B4 and also it really felt like it was trying to be Star Trek 2 all over again.

Also, Generations is arguably one of the weaker of the franchise.

Last edited by calhoun07; 09-30-04 at 03:51 PM.
Old 09-30-04, 03:57 PM
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The treaty between the Klingons and the Federation resulted from the events in Undiscovered Country. I think that was a pivitol moment in the Star Trek universe, and made TNG what it was, as well as Deep Space Nine, which dealt far more with the Khitomer Treaty (don't blast me for my spelling, I know it's not right). And Star Trek 6 is arguably perhaps the best original cast movie.
You're right!! That is exactly the kind of event I was alluding to. I knew something like that happened in VI but I couldn't quite remember. The treaty between the Federation and the Klingons was huge because the Klingons were one of the original main foes of Star Trek: OS.

I'll have to give more kudos to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country from now on. So really Star Trek V: The Final Frontier was the only downturn with the original cast and the second revival of the movies began with VI and continued in VII with the peak in VIII.

See, if they would have included more events like this in the final two movies we may still be anticipating another one.
Old 09-30-04, 04:06 PM
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Also, Generations is arguably one of the weaker of the franchise.
That has always surprised me. I know there were some problems with the plot and you had to suspend disbelief a lot but I really enjoyed that movie!!! I thought it had a very epic feel to it due to the jump of 70 years in time, the destruction of a star system and the meeting of Kirk and Picard. Just my opinon.

I understand why it is not well regarded I just don't personally feel the same.
Old 09-30-04, 05:15 PM
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Personally, I think the films are declining simply because there have been 10 of them now and they are running out of good ideas.
Old 09-30-04, 05:54 PM
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I think the problem was that with the original Star Trek, it had already been off the air for a long time, so the creators were willing to take some chances with those characters. If you listen to the commentaries or watch the documentaries on the first discs, back then they were taking it like each movie would probably be the last one.

But then TNG comes along, and the series has just ended so it's still pretty fresh on everyone's minds. Plus, based on the original Star Trek's run, they know they probably know they can milk TNG for several movies at least. So they take less chances with the characters. They don't want to mess anything up make any big changes. According to IMDb, they were going to destroy the Defiant in the battle with the Borg in First Contact, but they decided not to even do that since they might need it for Deep Space Nine. If they had done more with the TNG movies, instead of just designing them like extened episodes, I think the TNG movies would have been better.
Old 09-30-04, 06:07 PM
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STAR TREK: THE OVERSTRETCHING SEQUEL

Starring: THE SAME OLD, OLD CAST, only older and fatter (even Androids)

CAPTAIN: Engage! Warp speed!

(Fill in the blank) EVIL ______S: Haha! Puny humans! We will destroy you!

TROI: I sense... (states obvious)

WORF: (Something harsh and hostile)!

RIKER: The ______s are attacking!

(Big CG blast on surface of CG ship, clealy audible in the vacuum of space)

(Sparks fly inside Bridge, peopel shake about, yet curiously stay where they are and nothing is dislodged)

RANDOM ENSIGN: We've lost power to the nucleositronic encanabulatomatic! AAAAGH! (dies)

GUY WITH VISOR ON EYES: Shields are down 20%!

CAPTAIN: I have an utterly silly way of resolving this situation. It will sound plausible because I'm an exceptional actor.

SEEMINGLY INEXPENDABLE MEMBER OF CAST WHO WANTED MORE MONEY: Well, I'm dead.


THE END
Old 09-30-04, 06:27 PM
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The reason that Star Trek movies have gone downhill can be summed up in two words:

Berman and Braga

These guys simply don't know how to produce a movie. While First Contact was good, it could have easily been a season cliffhanger from TNG. In fact, it's not as good as the season cliffhanger "Best of Both Worlds". Insurrection was a dull TV story arc compressed into 2 hours, and Nemesis was just pointless. We finally get to see the Romulan Senate, and there's only about 20 people there? WTF? Nemesis was more like one of those cookie-cutter Star Trek 'novels' which have been polluting book shelves for the last few decades.

Television and Star Trek on TV has a completely different set of dynamics than a motion picture. Once B&B recognize this, or even better, if someone gets control of the franchise, things may turn around.
Old 09-30-04, 06:28 PM
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• DonnachaOne •

CAPTAIN: I have an utterly silly way of resolving this situation. It will sound plausible because I'm an exceptional actor.
OK, that part's funny.

das
Old 09-30-04, 06:39 PM
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Heres how I look at it:

Original Crew = Awesome

TNG and Everything Else = Crap
Old 09-30-04, 06:45 PM
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I agree with your analysis, except for what you said about Undiscovered Country and Nemesis.

IMO, I think they SHOULD have ended the Trek movies with First Contact. Think about it. Warp drive is invented, first contact is made with the vulcans no less, and everything that is essentially Star Trek begins. In short, it is with that movie that everything comes full circle. Insurrection did nothing, I agree with you there.

Nemesis has its problems, but I don't think it's all that bad. While you know they wanted things differently, they billed it as the last Trek for a while, and they shot the movie in such a style. IMO, it was a great ending note for the Trek movies. And in all honesty, I remember leaving the theater and thinking to myself as I left: "this will be the last time I see a Trek movie in the theater." Not because I didn't like it, but because I felt as though the movies had done all they could for me.
On another note, I think interest in the movies had waned since First Contact. The audience I had for Nemesis was on the Saturday after it opened and it was half full, and comprised mostly of guys by themselves! In short, only a few were holding on, and it seemed more or less because they had nothing better to do with their time that night. Go figure.
Old 09-30-04, 07:21 PM
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I can see your points needamazing. Frankly the franchise needs a new direction. Something bold.....like a Borg Origin Prequel a la Episode I. Because at this point the Borg are pretty much the only interesting thing in the Star Trek Universe.

Last edited by Giantrobo; 09-30-04 at 07:24 PM.
Old 09-30-04, 07:52 PM
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I disagree with your theory. Each individual movie didn't succeed or fail because of the major events, they succeeded or failed because of the strength of the writing and directing.

Star Trek: TMP wasn't so great because a) it basically recycled an old episode, and b) it tried way too hard to be 2001: A Space Odyssey. There was almost no interplay between the characters, most of what anyone said was exposition. The ending was silly and a lame attempt to once again imitate 2001. This movie really could have just been "generic crew goes out in space." There was nothing about it that made it Star Trek.

Star Trek II is the best because of Nicholas Meyers, plain and simple. The man knew how to write and direct well, and made the characters the paramount concern. And the action was pretty good, too. Of course, what II has going for it is the best villain in the series, and the Spock death is great not because it's a major event, but because Meyers has made us feel how important the characters are.

Star Trek III is good because Nimoy knows how to get the most out of the rest of the cast, it's a direct sequel to II, and again, it's all about the characters. The villain is less than interesting, unfortunately.

Star Trek IV is so great precisely because it breaks the mold of the series, and makes the whole thing a comedy. The writing is absolutely spot-on, as is the direction.

Star Trek V doesn't work because Shatner has no idea what he's doing as a director. The compositions are flat, the editing is flaccid, the story is abysmal. It's just stupid.

Star Trek VI is almost as good as II, and as good as IV, and again, it's because of Meyers. The detective sequence in the middle is superbly done, and finally there's another worthy villain, played wonderfully by Christopher Plummer.

Generations is a pretty bad movie, in my opinion. It felt completely inorganic, like the creators were trying so hard to squeeze everything that made TNG unique into it that they forgot to just have a good story. The Kirk storyline was also fairly tame. I didn't see the need to "pass the torch" since TNG was so successful on TV.

First Contact worked because again, we have good villains, and like Wrath of Khan, there's a history there to work on. It also helps that it's a balls to the wall action flick.

I actually like Insurrection. It's certainly better than Generations. A more subtle and subdued film than any other TNG film, but not an unworthy one.

Nemesis sucked because it felt like they were treading water. Forget whether or not a major event happens, does anything interesting happen at all? Nope.
Old 09-30-04, 08:05 PM
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While I'd defend Generations, placing it at the same level of Insurrection, I agree with the rest of it.

das
Old 09-30-04, 09:25 PM
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Wow. I really thought Insurrection was the worst of the series. I'd rather watch V over and over again than watch Insurrection again. I am a Star Trek whore, so I will undoubtedly buy the SE when it comes out, so if I am missing something with this movie, fill me in so I an appreciate it when I inevitably do watch it again.
Old 09-30-04, 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by das Monkey
While I'd defend Generations, placing it at the same level of Insurrection, I agree with the rest of it.

das
To be honest, I haven't seen Generations since it came out, but I remember disliking it.
Old 09-30-04, 11:13 PM
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I've always thought it ironic that while I think that Next Generation is superior to the Original Series as a television show, the Original Series feature films are far superior to the Next Generation ones.

My theory (which doesn't contradict the excellent points others have made already) is that with the OS movies, the filmmakers felt more able to take chances with the characters and situations, and *change* the status quo. There was already a ton of distance between the TV show and the films, in terms of time passing, and so we get some great stories with Kirk dealing with *not* being a captain any more, etc. Also, there really wasn't much character development in the OS, and what there was, was just in the "big 3" of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, which I think made it easier to take the characters to film and develop them there.

OTOH, the strength of Next Generation is largely in its characters, who are a true ensemble cast and who change and grow over the course of the series (which of course ran a whole lot longer than the OS). I think that the filmmakers haven't figured out how to make films that make use of the character dynamic, and they're hesitant to really shake things up in terms of either plot or character. (Data in Nemesis is an exception, but somehow not a very satisfying one - probably because the film itself was such a blatant copy of Wrath of Khan, but not as good.)

I agree that Insurrection and First Contact felt like extended episodes. Fun, don't get me wrong, but lacking the feeling of really being a full film. Generations was actually better than I remembered it being - for one thing, it actually moves the characters of Data and Picard forward in a way that's consistent with the series background.
Old 09-30-04, 11:29 PM
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I guess I should see Generations again. Maybe if HBO showed it once or twice instead of First Contact over and over.
Old 09-30-04, 11:57 PM
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Good points about the movies, I agree with you.
Old 10-01-04, 12:37 AM
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IMO, the film series' popularity decline, focusing strictly on financial success and not quality issues, is largely due to oversaturation/burnout. At this point we're on the fifth series. There's been at least one Trek series on the air nonstop since 1987, and for periods there were two. (Not to mention all the other space sci-fi shows that have co mpeted for attention: Babylon 5, Farscape, Stargate, Firefly, Andromena, etc.)

According to epguides.com, there have been 80 episodes of the original series (counting the pilot), 178 episodes of TNG, 176 episodes of DSN, 172 episodes ofVoyager, and 76 (and counting) episodes of Enterprise. At some point, all but the biggest diehards will just stop caring. Throw in a drop in quality and you seal the deal.
Old 10-01-04, 08:23 AM
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I was shocked that Nemesis didn't open that well. Typically any Trek movie, even the ones that weren't that great, opened decent. That's why I explained its lackluster performance overall as waning interest.
Old 10-01-04, 10:33 PM
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The problem with the Star Trek movies is that...well, they're just poor filmmaking these days. Badly written, lazy acting, uninteresting stories.

The event thing is a reason...granted even with an "event" they can still screw it up. Data died in the last film, but it's just so awfullly done I could've cared less. Generations is helped by a great crash, but the Kirk death is weak at best, and even though an "Event", does little to help the film. His mere occurance along side Picard though, does help the film.

So yeah, events are good. That just means there's a good storytelling arc. The reason why the movies are so bad is simply bad talent behind the franchise. The people who run Star Trek just make shitty movies and television, something that can be closely related to its parent company Paramount, who in general make a lot of shitty movies. Trust me, put some intelligent and good writers and directors in charge of this, and you could have a good Star Trek movie. But Paramount is too dumb to fix it, so I suppose we're screwed until they do.

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