chess

I've seen a ton of theories floated about how Neo shuts down the Sentinels at the end of reloaded and was wondering which way people are leaning.

I think it comes down to three questions:

(1) Is the real world real, or is it another Matrix
(2) Is Neo human, or is he a program
(3) Is his change caused by his connection with Smith, or is it a result of his meeting with the Architect (either affect if human or incomplete purpose if program)

Personally, I'm not in the "Matrix in a Matrix" camp as I think it's a bit too predictable.

If anything, I'm leaning toward a scenario where Neo makes Smith more human and Smith makes Neo more machine...and in the process, they are very much attached to each other, hence they're both comatose. Also, I'm pretty sure Neo is actually human, but I have some doubts given the "mathmatical anomole" business.

Anyway, what do you guy's think?

Groucho

None of the above. My theory:

Not Matrix in a Matrix: Neo human; not changed; source of power unknown

PixyJunket

My theory: Commerical for next movie.

chess

ack! forgot to add a none of the above! mods, if you get a chance...

oh, and the LACK of threadcrap comments about how "bad" the movie was would be appreciated. I personally enjoyed it thoroughly, but also thought it had serious flaws. I have no problem reconciling the two.

Jeremy517

I believe the writers have already come out and said that it isn't a matrix-in-a-matrix.

PixyJunket

Awwwww.. you sure? I can be REAAAL creative.

lesterlong

I was looking for a picture to post but all I could find was one that said "Welcome to last week" so instead I'll say "Welcome to 3 months ago!"

evenflow

You forgot to say "Hi!"

Hi! and Welcome to 3 months ago.

Meatpants

The Matrix series is out to be a crowd-pleaser - it's not going to be a Matrix within a Matrix, and the hero (Neo) is definitely not going to be a program.

Hokeyboy

Neo is a fish stick, and the Architect is the Gordon's Fisherman. There, I've saved you $7.00. Now go take on the day.

Blade

Agree.

It makes sense that after being so dramatically attacked by Neo that Smith might change, but there's never been any indication that Neo was affected by Smith. And the Architect didn't do anything but talk to him.

B.A.

The fifth option - No Matrix in the Matrix; Neo human, changed by Smith.

If Neo can change, and Smith can change - everybody can change!!!

chess

I didn't mean that the Architect changed Neo, just that he changed as a result of choosing the other door...and that now all bets are off, so to speak.

I did notice while watching this last night that Trinity's gun dies at the same time as the Sentinels. Not really sure what to make of that...maybe an EMP from the other ship?

Oh, I also frame by framed through the Architect scene looking for one of the monitors to show Neo outside of what we know as the Matrix. I didn't see anything and am increasingly certain that there is no matrix in a matrix.

for those who think the conversation is sooooo 3 months ago, my deepest apologies. I must have forgotten that when you talk about a movie more than 2 weeks old, your thread gets crapped on.

AGuyNamedMike

Not Matrix in a Matrix: Neo human; changed by Smith.

I just feel it.

xVladx

Don't know yet, and it could really go either way.

Honestly, I don't think there's enough evidence presented in Reloaded to make a case either way, unfortunately. I just hope that Revolutions clears EVERYTHING up. I don't want any cliffhangers, unanswered questions, or anything like that.

I don't think that the door choice is what caused the change. Either Neo's always had the ability, but finally realized it late in the movie. Unfortunately, the last 20 minutes or so of the movie are a bit of a blur, so I can't remember anything offhand that would have been a catalyst for a spontaneous realization of power in the "real world".

Didn't the other ship fly over to them, though? If it set off an EMP while flying, then it just would have fallen to the ground. I also got the impression from the first movie that EMPs take a while to recover from, so it's not like they could have landed, set of an EMP, then started back up to fly over to Neo and company.

Hmm, just thought of something. Before now, I had always thought that if when Neo knocked out the sentinels, it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in the "real world". I thought it would have been a bit too much of a stretch for him to suddenly either become telekenetic in the real world, or remotely gain control of the machines while outside of the matrix.

But then I thought about it some more (just now), and realized that, with a little stretch of the imagination, it could be feasible. Remember that although Agents are just sentient programs, they can still issue orders to the sentinels in the real world. So basically, there must be some sort of central control for the sentinels, where the Agent's orders are received, processed, and issued to whatever sentinels are closest to the area, etc. Now, if Smith really was affected by Neo to the point of being able to transfer a copy/part of himself to the outside world by infecting a human not attached to the matrix, then leaving, then perhaps Neo is also able to do something similar.

Remember at the end of the first Matrix, when Neo jumped into Smith, he used part of him to fix the bullet holes in his virtual self (or just completely stole what passes for Smith's "body" and just altered it to look like himself). That could have caused a change in Neo outside of the Matrix in the same way that Smith can transfer himself outside of the Matrix now, if he's got a host.

So back to the sentinels... If Agents, by nature, can issue orders to the sentinels, then it may be that when Neo hijacked some or all of Smith's code to fix himself, he also gained access to whatever means the machines use to issue orders to the sentinels. If this is the case, then we're back to WHY he suddenly realized that he had this power. Perhaps this was his first close exposure to sentinels since the first movie. It could have been something that happened during or after the Architect sequence.

Of course, this is all theory, but so far, it's the only thing that makes even the tiniest bit of sense to me. There are a few problems, though.

We have to assume that the sentinels are just remote droids, and not individual AIs. Since we know that the machines are actual AIs, and also (if we're to take the Animatrix as canon), there can be individual AI beings, not just a hive mind, it's possible that the sentinels are each a being unto themselves, or at maybe a sort of hive mind. If this is the case, then it's possible that they wouldn't be actually controlled by the agents or whatever remote control station that the orders get issued to, but would just receive information from them, and act on their own from there. Again, we've seen no information either way, so it's possible that the sentinels are just remote droids being controlled from a central place. In which case, it would make much more sense that Neo was able to do what he could.

Also, we don't know if the copy/part of Smith that took that guy over can communicate with his other selves inside the Matrix while he's outside. If he can, then maybe Neo's using whatever he got from Smith to tap into the Matrix without using a jack, and then broadcast whatever back out to the Sentinels to knock them out. Or he could be broadcasting whatever it is directly from his brain to the end point, but that makes a LOT less sense.

The thing is, all Neo's power that we've seen so far is based in the Matrix, which is why the Matrix in a Matrix theory has caught on so much. We've seen (and have every reason to believe), that in the real world, Neo's just like anybody else, but just with a stronger mind. So logically, any sort of power that Neo has is based in the Matrix, or any virtual reality where his mind has direct access to the data. This is really why I have trouble buying some of the other theories that I've seen, where people are claiming that he generated an EMP with his mind, or that he just randomly gained power over the machines, or can directly access the sentinels.

I'd like to hope that the writers are at least playing fair with the audience, and leaving us clues as to why Neo can now do what he can do.

chess

nice thoughts...and i think they've left a lot of clues...though some seem to be red herrings.

essentially, neo gaining control over the sentinels via power gained from smith is my theory as well. my only problem with that is the first movie when smith tells the other agent to send the sentinels. i have to assume that scene was for the benefit of the audience and not because he HAD to do it. so, working under the assumption that smith can control the sentinels in the real world, and if smith gained powers from neo, it's reasonable to believe that neo might have gained power from smith.

i hadn't really considered the idea that neo simply hadn't been around a "machine" since the first film and had the power all along. i had assumed when he said "something's different" it meant that he had just changed somehow. at any rate, the new power seems to even the score somewhat as far as the invading sentinel army goes.

i also think that this new theme of co-dependence between humans and machines (animatrix and reloaded) will play a central role in the relationship between neo and smith and that the importance of the pair in the big scheme of things can't be overstated.

anyway, thanks for the input...gave me a few new angles that i hadn't considered.

xVladx

Like I said, I don't quite think that he had absolute control over the sentinels, just that he was sort of relaying information to the outside.

Think of it this way, as we saw in the first movie, agents receive information through their earpieces, and possibly use those to send as well (this is just a visual representation, after all. As we saw, the earpiece is sort of their communication link to anything outside of the Matrix. Without it, all they can do is rely on sight, hearing, etc inside the Matrix. Remember when Smith removed his earpiece when interrogating Morpheus in the first movie, he was unable to receive the information that Cypher had failed to kill the entire crew of Morpheus' ship. The other two agents walk into the room, notice that the earpiece isn't in his ear, and say "he doesn't know". The first thing Smith does is rush to put the earpiece back in his ear, to reestablish his link.

Something else that just occurred to me. In the beginning of the movie, Smith gives Neo an envelope containing his old earpiece. While I'm sure Neo didn't literally put it on or anything, it could be considered as a huge glaring symbol of exactly WHAT he got from Smith. He got Smith's link to the machines.

Of course, this is all theory, but the whole "giving him the earpiece" thing does make sense.

chess

ahhhh....symbolism.

nice.

guess we'll find out in Nov.

Blade

I thought this was meant to be symbolic of Smith being freed from relying on the Matrix (and later we're led to believe he's become some kind of rogue program like the ghosts and werewolves). I don't think the ear piece was meant to give Neo a connection to the machines since that wasn't discussed elsewhere in this movie.

Though anythings possible of course, and it would answer some questions.

I also don't think Neo was changed by Smith. I don't know why, it just doesn't sound right to me.

xVladx

Well, like I said above, I don't think that the ear piece that Smith gave Neo would have literally given him the connection. I'm pretty sure that Smith gave it to him for the exact reason that you mentioned. I'm just theorizing that since we've seen that the agents use them to communicate/receive from outside of the Matrix, then it was a guess that it could also have been a symbol of Neo gaining the ability from Smith.

It doesn't exactly sound 100% right to me either, but at the moment, all we can do is theorize. I'm just hoping that it's something that would have been possible to figure out given what we've seen so far.

chess

sounds exactly right to me. in the first movie, neo had the ability to "jump into" another being in effect replicating himself. In the process of taking over smith's body, he gave him that ability. I assume neo no longer has that ability...

likewise, smith had the ability to communicate with and control machines in the real world (via his earpiece). he no longer has that ability, and neo apparently does...though he didn't know it yet.

smith gave neo the earpiece to let him know that he was "unplugged"...to the extent that he could inhabit a human body even. likewise, neo is now "plugged" to the extent that he can control the machines.

it's all about the earpiece...i just missed the significance of that little gift. guess i just figured it was his way of saying "hi, i'm not an agent anymore."