EEEEEeennnntttssssss!
01-12-03, 11:12 AM
#2
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True, but the Ents got the shaft as far as their role in the film overall. I think the only scene with the ents that has any significance is when they attack Isengard. Merry, Pippin, and Treebeard spend about half the movie walking through Fangorn forest, followed by a couple scenes where the ents decide not to join the battle.
I thought the Ents were done beautifully in the film. They didn't have too much of a CG look, and all their battle scenes made them look appropriately powerful. I just think they should have played a bigger part in the film. In my mind the only reason that the real battle of Helm Deep was won is because of the Ents.
I thought the Ents were done beautifully in the film. They didn't have too much of a CG look, and all their battle scenes made them look appropriately powerful. I just think they should have played a bigger part in the film. In my mind the only reason that the real battle of Helm Deep was won is because of the Ents.
01-12-03, 01:44 PM
#3
Retired
That's the way it was in the book too.
Most of it was Treebeard with Merry and Pippin, then the Entmoot, then the attack on Isengard.
The only major difference was that in the book the Ents decided to go to war at the Entmoot, Pippin had nothing to do with their decision.
Most of it was Treebeard with Merry and Pippin, then the Entmoot, then the attack on Isengard.
The only major difference was that in the book the Ents decided to go to war at the Entmoot, Pippin had nothing to do with their decision.
01-12-03, 07:18 PM
#5
Retired
I disagree.
For one it was Huorns mainly, though they did see an Ent walk out of the trees the next day.
The calvary charge turned the tide. They overwhelmed the Uruk Hai and the Huorns simply killed them when they fled . It was just nature getting revenge basically.
For one it was Huorns mainly, though they did see an Ent walk out of the trees the next day.
The calvary charge turned the tide. They overwhelmed the Uruk Hai and the Huorns simply killed them when they fled . It was just nature getting revenge basically.
01-12-03, 09:42 PM
#7
DVD Talk Hero
Simply put Huorns or more "treeish" in appearance than the Ents and they're much more vicious. If it wasn't for the Ents they'd likely go on a rampage killing whoever they pleased.
At least that's the impression I got from the books. Anyone care to make comments or corrections about what I said?
At least that's the impression I got from the books. Anyone care to make comments or corrections about what I said?
01-12-03, 11:29 PM
#8
DVD Talk Special Edition
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Josh,
so in the book, the Battle of Helm's Deep did end with a cavalry charge? It's been such a long time, since I've read it, that I thought the movie just made it up.
so in the book, the Battle of Helm's Deep did end with a cavalry charge? It's been such a long time, since I've read it, that I thought the movie just made it up.
01-13-03, 01:11 AM
#9
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Okay ... I am going to quote this because it is pretty short.
from the last page of Two Towers Book 3 ... Chapter "Helm's Deep"
recalling what was noticed as the king started his charge.
"The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them."
...
"The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. Again the horn sounded from the tower. Down through the breach of the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again."
Of course the one change is that Erkenbrand is actually Eomer in the film. But to me that sounds like the orcs realized they were trapped and tried to retreat only to be chewed up by the forest. I guess I didn't make the distinction between Huorns and Ents, but either way, there was a forest there devouring orcs. And in my mind it was that forest that served as a wall that trapped the orcs in the valley and caused their defeat. I stand by my claim that the Ents/Huorns were the determining factor, along with Gandalf coming of course.
This is really a testament to how much importance can be written in so few words.
from the last page of Two Towers Book 3 ... Chapter "Helm's Deep"
recalling what was noticed as the king started his charge.
"The land had changed. Where before the green dale had lain, its grassy slopes lapping the ever-mounting hills, there now a forest loomed. Great trees, bare and silent, stood, rank on rank, with tangled bough and hoary head; their twisted roots were buried in the long green grass. Darkness was under them."
...
"The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. Again the horn sounded from the tower. Down through the breach of the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again."
Of course the one change is that Erkenbrand is actually Eomer in the film. But to me that sounds like the orcs realized they were trapped and tried to retreat only to be chewed up by the forest. I guess I didn't make the distinction between Huorns and Ents, but either way, there was a forest there devouring orcs. And in my mind it was that forest that served as a wall that trapped the orcs in the valley and caused their defeat. I stand by my claim that the Ents/Huorns were the determining factor, along with Gandalf coming of course.
This is really a testament to how much importance can be written in so few words.
01-13-03, 07:40 AM
#10
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I was disappointed that the Huorns did not show up too.
The question from all my friends who have not read the books was, "How did Gandalf showing up make the Orcs run away?" From a numbers perspective, let's say 2,000 Orcs died in the successful attempt to storm Helm's Deep. Then let's be generous and say that 500 died in Theoden and Aragorn's ride from the Hornburg. That leaves 7,500 Orcs out of the original 10,000 mentioned in the movie. Gandalf shows up with Eomer, bringing 500 men or so. Let's say they take out half the remaining Orcs (also generous). That still leaves almost 4,000 Orcs against less than 1,000 men.
My answer to the question is that the Orcs are overcome with fear when they see the White Rider, and they in turn flee. But in the books the end of the battle was so much more convincing because the Huorns are involved. Not only does it give the "good" side more power, it also provides a better explanation as to why the Orcs would run. The mystery of the appearance of the forest would frighten the Orcs more.
Anyway, that's a long winded post but I truly feel the battle would have felt more satisfying had the Huorns been there. And yes, the Huorns are the lesser Ents that are more hasty. Treebeard even says that Merry and Pippin and perhaps even Gandalf would not want to walk among the Huorns without and true Ent. Otherwise the Huorns would detroy them. But a short explanation of that and Treebeard dispatching the Huorns to Helm's Deep would have been both effective and convinving, as well as adding depth to the lore of Middle Earth. In my opinion at least.
stoolie
The question from all my friends who have not read the books was, "How did Gandalf showing up make the Orcs run away?" From a numbers perspective, let's say 2,000 Orcs died in the successful attempt to storm Helm's Deep. Then let's be generous and say that 500 died in Theoden and Aragorn's ride from the Hornburg. That leaves 7,500 Orcs out of the original 10,000 mentioned in the movie. Gandalf shows up with Eomer, bringing 500 men or so. Let's say they take out half the remaining Orcs (also generous). That still leaves almost 4,000 Orcs against less than 1,000 men.
My answer to the question is that the Orcs are overcome with fear when they see the White Rider, and they in turn flee. But in the books the end of the battle was so much more convincing because the Huorns are involved. Not only does it give the "good" side more power, it also provides a better explanation as to why the Orcs would run. The mystery of the appearance of the forest would frighten the Orcs more.
Anyway, that's a long winded post but I truly feel the battle would have felt more satisfying had the Huorns been there. And yes, the Huorns are the lesser Ents that are more hasty. Treebeard even says that Merry and Pippin and perhaps even Gandalf would not want to walk among the Huorns without and true Ent. Otherwise the Huorns would detroy them. But a short explanation of that and Treebeard dispatching the Huorns to Helm's Deep would have been both effective and convinving, as well as adding depth to the lore of Middle Earth. In my opinion at least.
stoolie
01-13-03, 08:08 PM
#12
Retired
Originally posted by agilliland
And in my mind it was that forest that served as a wall that trapped the orcs in the valley and caused their defeat. I stand by my claim that the Ents/Huorns were the determining factor, along with Gandalf coming of course.
And in my mind it was that forest that served as a wall that trapped the orcs in the valley and caused their defeat. I stand by my claim that the Ents/Huorns were the determining factor, along with Gandalf coming of course.
Last edited by Josh Hinkle; 01-13-03 at 08:30 PM.
01-13-03, 08:10 PM
#13
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The Ents were also my favorite part of this Film. I just started reading TTT book so I've yet to get to any parts with Ents in it.
01-13-03, 08:12 PM
#14
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BTW, wasn't there another "ANCIENT LIVING TREE"(not Ent) in "THE HOBBIT"? One that had roots that went throughout one huge forest??
I can't remember if it was in "THE HOBBIT" or "FELLOWSHIP".
I can't remember if it was in "THE HOBBIT" or "FELLOWSHIP".
01-14-03, 08:23 AM
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In Fellowship before the hobbits reach Bree, they pass through Tom Bombadil's territory where a tree traps them. Don't know if it was supposed to be an Ent that has mostly transformed into a tree or if it was simply some kind of magic. Nevertheless, that's the tree I think you're remembering.
01-14-03, 08:52 AM
#17
DVD Talk Legend
I think Jackson fixed the problem by increasing the number of the charge to 2000. A calvary charge of 2000 trained horse warriors against a surprised and blinded enemy on foot with a wall at their back? Also take into account that the bad guys are much weaker fighters (the dwarf was taking 'em out with one sloppy swing each). I think they would easily win.
Besides do you really expect Jackson to introduce an entirely new race and take the time to explain why they are so different than Ents? For the big screen I prefer Jackson's choice.
Besides do you really expect Jackson to introduce an entirely new race and take the time to explain why they are so different than Ents? For the big screen I prefer Jackson's choice.
01-14-03, 06:06 PM
#18
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Originally posted by yecul
In Fellowship before the hobbits reach Bree, they pass through Tom Bombadil's territory where a tree traps them. Don't know if it was supposed to be an Ent that has mostly transformed into a tree or if it was simply some kind of magic. Nevertheless, that's the tree I think you're remembering.
In Fellowship before the hobbits reach Bree, they pass through Tom Bombadil's territory where a tree traps them. Don't know if it was supposed to be an Ent that has mostly transformed into a tree or if it was simply some kind of magic. Nevertheless, that's the tree I think you're remembering.
Yeah that's it. It was old and had taken over the forest.
01-14-03, 09:41 PM
#19
Moderator
Originally posted by agilliland
The orcs get away in the movie? I was under the impression that the king's riders along with Eomer and the White Rider came out into the valley and killed them all.
The orcs get away in the movie? I was under the impression that the king's riders along with Eomer and the White Rider came out into the valley and killed them all.
01-15-03, 11:12 AM
#20
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Originally posted by agilliland
The orcs get away in the movie? I was under the impression that the king's riders along with Eomer and the White Rider came out into the valley and killed them all.
The orcs get away in the movie? I was under the impression that the king's riders along with Eomer and the White Rider came out into the valley and killed them all.
01-15-03, 02:24 PM
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I guess I was just expecting the same result as the book and so I never gave a thought to the fact that a huge part of the orc army would get to run away. And maybe its just me, but that doesn't feel like victory. Ugh, now I feel even more troubled about the whole Helm Deep battle scenario.
01-15-03, 06:12 PM
#22
Retired
Any army is going to flee in the face of death. They stood no chance against a calvary. An army on foot will get wiped out by an army on horse (especially an army of 2,000 on horse).
They just ran away in the book too. They just happened to run into the "forest" and get slaughtered by the Huorns instead of just getting away as in the movie.
I'd have prefered the Huorns as well, but it's not a big deal to me. The revenge of nature was already illustrated by the Ents attack on Isengard, so the Huorns really wouldn't have added anything. Either way the battle of Helm's Deep was one, and the Uruks fleeing.
Besides, it's foolish to go into a movie expecting it to stick to the book 100%. They're totally different mediums. Somethings work in one and not the other. Besides it would be boring if it was exactly the same as the book IMO. No point in seeing a movie that's a 100% translation of a book I've already read IMO.
They just ran away in the book too. They just happened to run into the "forest" and get slaughtered by the Huorns instead of just getting away as in the movie.
I'd have prefered the Huorns as well, but it's not a big deal to me. The revenge of nature was already illustrated by the Ents attack on Isengard, so the Huorns really wouldn't have added anything. Either way the battle of Helm's Deep was one, and the Uruks fleeing.
Besides, it's foolish to go into a movie expecting it to stick to the book 100%. They're totally different mediums. Somethings work in one and not the other. Besides it would be boring if it was exactly the same as the book IMO. No point in seeing a movie that's a 100% translation of a book I've already read IMO.
