Political allegory? Bin Laden? Stop it!
12-27-02, 01:02 PM
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Political allegory? Bin Laden? Stop it!
Warning: Potential political discussion, those afraid of other's opinions should stay away.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about so many people comparing the Lord of the Rings films, especially The Two Towers, to American war on terrorism, comparing Saruman with Bin Laden, orcs with Muslims, Aragorn with George W. Bush, Frodo with Tony Blair, other absurdities and so forth.
I can't seem to be able to ingest that level of obstinate blindness to the violence perpetrated by the United States over the world.
First of all, let it be clear: Tolkien never intended to parallel political/world events like the First World War in which he took part and during which he started writing Lord of the Rings. He rather spoke about an "applicability" which allows the reader to link some story themes with events like the atomic bomb even though they're pointing in a broader direction. I think Jackson did the film pretty much in that political-free spirit.
Recently, as you probably know, the actor Viggo Mortensen (who plays Aragorn in the films), Peter Jackson and Elijah Wood went on the Charlie Rose Show, on December 03, 2002. Mortensen was wearing a "No More Blood for Oil" T-Shirt. Intrigued, Rose asked him why he decided to wear that shirt on the show and Mortensen's answer was the following:
I very much agree to that point of view and applaud Mortensen's courage in bringing that point up on tv.
Before tracing an all-too-easy link between Saruman and Bin Laden's beards, please consider that, with a little much more concern for the world population outside the US, it is almost as easy to see Bush's United States as Mordor.
But, of course, I don't make either comparisons.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about so many people comparing the Lord of the Rings films, especially The Two Towers, to American war on terrorism, comparing Saruman with Bin Laden, orcs with Muslims, Aragorn with George W. Bush, Frodo with Tony Blair, other absurdities and so forth.
I can't seem to be able to ingest that level of obstinate blindness to the violence perpetrated by the United States over the world.
First of all, let it be clear: Tolkien never intended to parallel political/world events like the First World War in which he took part and during which he started writing Lord of the Rings. He rather spoke about an "applicability" which allows the reader to link some story themes with events like the atomic bomb even though they're pointing in a broader direction. I think Jackson did the film pretty much in that political-free spirit.
Recently, as you probably know, the actor Viggo Mortensen (who plays Aragorn in the films), Peter Jackson and Elijah Wood went on the Charlie Rose Show, on December 03, 2002. Mortensen was wearing a "No More Blood for Oil" T-Shirt. Intrigued, Rose asked him why he decided to wear that shirt on the show and Mortensen's answer was the following:
Mortensen: I wouldn't normally, but it's sort of a reaction to... I've heard a lot of people say to me and I've read in a lot of places about the first movie, and increasingly about the second one... I've seen where people try to relate it to current situation, specifically the United States and their role in the world right now. And I—if you're going to compare them, then you should get it right—I don't like hearing... I mean I play the character who's defending Helm's Deep and I don't think that The Two Towers or Tolkien's writing or Peter's work or our work has anything to do with the United States' foreign ventures at this time. And it upsets me to hear that in a way. And it upsets me even more that questioning what's going on right now, what the United States is doing, is considered treasonous really: "How dare you say that? How un-American of you." And really, this country is founded on the principle that if the government isn't serving the people you at least have the right to say, "Wait a minute. What's going on?" And there're no questions really being asked, at large, about what we're doing. Whereas in The Two Towers you have different races, nations, cultures coming together and examining their conscience and unifying against a very real and terrifying enemy. What the United States has been doing for the past year is bombing innocent civilians without having come anywhere close to catching Osama bin Laden or any presumed enemy, and, as a distraction, we're now—apparently it's a given—we're hell bent on increasing the bombing that's been going on for the past eleven years in Iraq. And I don't think that the civilians on the ground in those countries look at us in the way that maybe Europeans did at the end of World War II, waving flags in the streets. I think that they see the US government as Saruman.
Elijah Wood: As a threat.
Mortensen: Yeah, as a threat. And they're terrified—and have been for a long time—and we are not the good guys, unfortunately, in this case, and ...
Rose: Even though right after 9/11 there was an extraordinary amount of public support for the United States to do something?
Mortensen: I'm supportive of the United States. I'm an American. And I have nothing against patriotism. But if one is going to compare then the comparison is quite the opposite of what is being made.
Elijah Wood: As a threat.
Mortensen: Yeah, as a threat. And they're terrified—and have been for a long time—and we are not the good guys, unfortunately, in this case, and ...
Rose: Even though right after 9/11 there was an extraordinary amount of public support for the United States to do something?
Mortensen: I'm supportive of the United States. I'm an American. And I have nothing against patriotism. But if one is going to compare then the comparison is quite the opposite of what is being made.
Before tracing an all-too-easy link between Saruman and Bin Laden's beards, please consider that, with a little much more concern for the world population outside the US, it is almost as easy to see Bush's United States as Mordor.
But, of course, I don't make either comparisons.
12-27-02, 01:29 PM
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There are scarily relevant subtexts that can be read into these films because of the universality and potency of the themes involved (I got chills when Sam in voiceover said "how could the world go back to the way it was" during the charge of the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep) but I agree, no modern politics should be read into the LOTR movies.
12-27-02, 02:28 PM
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I think looking for any current political comparisons (or past comparisons if Tolkien himself is to be believed) is almost as stupid as comparing the US to Mordor.
12-27-02, 02:33 PM
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After he tore down all the trees around Isengard, I said Saruman was Dubya.
Of course, I was making a joke, but a viewer can read anything into the scenes they wish. None of it was intended by the author, except in the larger themes of good and evil, technology and nature.
Of course, I was making a joke, but a viewer can read anything into the scenes they wish. None of it was intended by the author, except in the larger themes of good and evil, technology and nature.
Last edited by RevLiver; 12-27-02 at 02:37 PM.
12-28-02, 09:49 AM
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I don't think Mortensen's T-shirt or speech are a sign of bravery. After all, the Hollywood crowd has been crying over Iraq over foreign policy since W. Bush took office. He is just one more in a long line of celebrities who have decided to use their position to influence public thought. Good for him, it is his right. However, I won't applaud him for doing it when others are risking more than reputation or stardom.
12-28-02, 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by silentbob007
However, I won't applaud him for doing it when others are risking more than reputation or stardom.
However, I won't applaud him for doing it when others are risking more than reputation or stardom.
To remain somewhat on topic, I think LOTR strikes on some basic human conditions, but was never meant to draw parallels to any singular event. Certainly, Tolkien could not have forseen our latest messes, other than to know that the same sad history of the human race will continue unabated, and things will have little chance of changing anytime soon.
12-28-02, 04:19 PM
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I hate to say it, but if you're looking for allegories WE'RE (the U.S.) Mordor. Mordor was the place known for having all of the technology and know-how in the times, much like us.
That said, how in the world could PJ have had the foresight to know this stuff when he started shooting about two years before the 9/11 events occurred? Even my mom thought Aragorn's "open war" statement was written by George W. I doubt P.J. would let TTT be a recruiting film.
That said, how in the world could PJ have had the foresight to know this stuff when he started shooting about two years before the 9/11 events occurred? Even my mom thought Aragorn's "open war" statement was written by George W. I doubt P.J. would let TTT be a recruiting film.
12-28-02, 08:06 PM
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As a football fan, I see Oakland as Mordor. The Raiders and their fans are Orcs. Al Davis is Sauron. Rich Gannon is Saruman. Paul Tagliabue is Gandalf. The Broncos are the men of Rohan. Um, Dick Vermeil is Aragorn. Doug Flutie is Frodo. The ring is, of course, a Super Bowl ring.
12-28-02, 11:11 PM
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Re: Political allegory? Bin Laden? Stop it!
Originally posted by old tree
I'm sick and tired of hearing about so many people comparing the Lord of the Rings films, especially The Two Towers, to American war on terrorism, comparing Saruman with Bin Laden, orcs with Muslims, Aragorn with George W. Bush, Frodo with Tony Blair, other absurdities and so forth.
I'm sick and tired of hearing about so many people comparing the Lord of the Rings films, especially The Two Towers, to American war on terrorism, comparing Saruman with Bin Laden, orcs with Muslims, Aragorn with George W. Bush, Frodo with Tony Blair, other absurdities and so forth.
There's always gonna be a bad guy at some point in history and there will always be battles fought between good and evil. Everyone has thier own ideas as to what Good is and what evil is. Some people see Bin Laden as evil and others see Bush as evil. There just opinions and leave it at that.
Some might say that YOU are perpetrating evil by your statement:
I can't seem to be able to ingest that level of obstinate blindness to the violence perpetrated by the United States over the world.
12-29-02, 10:34 AM
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Tolkien hated alllegory and said that LOTR was not allegorical or topical.Yet he did admit that he was influened by his experiences. So his experiences in WWI and seeing his sons go to fight WWII definitely had an influence on him as far as the nature of war. The industialization of England definitelty had an influence on his portrayal of nature vs. industry.
Almost any country or culture coul interpret the books and film to suit their own views. If it's not the war on terror it would be Vietnam, The Gulf War, WWII. Interesting that the books were embraced the most by the counter-culture of the 60's when it came to America.
Almost any country or culture coul interpret the books and film to suit their own views. If it's not the war on terror it would be Vietnam, The Gulf War, WWII. Interesting that the books were embraced the most by the counter-culture of the 60's when it came to America.
12-29-02, 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by Jason
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I've always seen this as a dangerous line of thinking, because ultimately any and all dissent or criticism of government action (no matter how legitimate the claim or the speaker is) can be silenced by the notion that you're not "supporting the troops" (the mantra of the first Gulf War).
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I've always seen this as a dangerous line of thinking, because ultimately any and all dissent or criticism of government action (no matter how legitimate the claim or the speaker is) can be silenced by the notion that you're not "supporting the troops" (the mantra of the first Gulf War).
I agree with what others have said though, in that the good vs. evil nature of LOTR makes it very succeptible to political allegories. However, I think that this is a very shallow interpretation, and anyone truly driven to make it has probably not taken the time to look at other issues within both the movies and the texts. I mean, come on, almost every story can be broken down into good and evil ... let's see, the US is Dorothy and Iraq is the Wicked Witch, making Toto .... People will find what they want to find in any sort of media, wheter it is justification as why the US is good/evil, etc.
12-29-02, 11:13 AM
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Unfortunately, when talking about who is "Good" and who is "Evil", the definition people give to "Good" is whatever side they're on.
The other side is always "Evil"
The other side is always "Evil"
12-29-02, 08:40 PM
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I think the Shire=College Campuses. Think about it. They avoid contact with the outside world when they can, and their favorite hobbies are eating, drinking ale, and smoking weed!
01-07-03, 10:00 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. DVD
I think the Shire=College Campuses. Think about it. They avoid contact with the outside world when they can, and their favorite hobbies are eating, drinking ale, and smoking weed!
I think the Shire=College Campuses. Think about it. They avoid contact with the outside world when they can, and their favorite hobbies are eating, drinking ale, and smoking weed!
LOTR can be applicable as a reason for war. I know Tolkien says LOTR is not allegorical to WWII, or WWI, but c'mon. He wrote during and after the war (He says from 1936-49). It must have affected him, as it did all Europeans! War is a major part of LOTR.
Should I believe that the greatest conflict in human history (which occurred during his writing time), had no effect on him or his work (either consciously or subsconsciously)?
Last edited by TCG; 01-13-03 at 03:21 AM.
01-08-03, 05:21 PM
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I'm not reading allegory into LOTR, I don't think Mortonsen or anyone is woried about that. To suggest that LOTR is an allegory of our current situation is to suggest that Tolkien was Nostradamus. What Mortonsen is pointing out (read: worried about) is the opposite, that people will read current events into the story.
Although Vigo doesn't discuss it specificly I think the reason for his grandstanding on Charlie Rose was intended to deflect any criticism that might be leveled on him (and/or the movie) because the film is very PRO war. You can call Bin Ladin Mordor, or you can call the US Mordor. You can read it from any angle you want, but it all boils down to one simple fact: The Two Towers installment of LOTR is extremely Pro war.
Not only that. One of the issues focused on most clearly in the Two Towers is the error of pacifism, and how the time for pacifism is over. The very old king of the city that is on the mountin (Stick with me here, I'm a casual fan and don't remember the character or location names) is arguing against the war. To intensify the matter he is depicted as being the pupet of Sauruman. In this connection the audience is given no choice but to accept that this film (and presumably book) sees rulers who profess peace in the face of a great threat as being (unwittingly) possessed by that evil.
In other words, a leader faced with a great threat who choses not to fight, is himself an agent of that evil. By doing nothing he is allowing that threat to grow.
I don't want to through around words like warmongering and jingoistic, and I don't the the film (or book) are either, but audiences are bound to infer that the filmmakers are pro war. I don't mean pro war in Iraq, but pro war in general.
Although Vigo doesn't discuss it specificly I think the reason for his grandstanding on Charlie Rose was intended to deflect any criticism that might be leveled on him (and/or the movie) because the film is very PRO war. You can call Bin Ladin Mordor, or you can call the US Mordor. You can read it from any angle you want, but it all boils down to one simple fact: The Two Towers installment of LOTR is extremely Pro war.
Not only that. One of the issues focused on most clearly in the Two Towers is the error of pacifism, and how the time for pacifism is over. The very old king of the city that is on the mountin (Stick with me here, I'm a casual fan and don't remember the character or location names) is arguing against the war. To intensify the matter he is depicted as being the pupet of Sauruman. In this connection the audience is given no choice but to accept that this film (and presumably book) sees rulers who profess peace in the face of a great threat as being (unwittingly) possessed by that evil.
In other words, a leader faced with a great threat who choses not to fight, is himself an agent of that evil. By doing nothing he is allowing that threat to grow.
I don't want to through around words like warmongering and jingoistic, and I don't the the film (or book) are either, but audiences are bound to infer that the filmmakers are pro war. I don't mean pro war in Iraq, but pro war in general.
Last edited by Pants; 01-08-03 at 05:24 PM.
01-08-03, 07:22 PM
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In all honesty, when reading the book, I saw it as Tolkien telling a tale of a clash of civilizations; the Numenoreans and the lesser men that dwelt in the West of Middle-Earth were constantly under siege by the "Easterlings", and men of "Harad" to the East (the oliphaunt riders, described in a Middle-Eastern sense by Tolkien), not to my knowledge giving the men of the East a single resounding good quality; as opposed to the ultimate race of Numenoreans, those with the partial blood of elves. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, please. I wonder where this idea for the book came from? I'm just starting to read those "History of Middle Earth" books, so mebbe I'll find something else out. Otherwise, it looks like if Tolkien were writing this story today, it might be slammed for political allegory as being anti-East.
01-10-03, 04:43 PM
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Very interesting post, Pants. However I disagree on some points. If you take a specific part of the larger Tolkien story, yes it may seem pro-war on a certain level. It is certainly against submissiveness.
However, it would be too much of a generalization. The famous trilogy is very much for peace, like the author himself. (I'm no Tolkien scholar, like everybody seem to be these days, but I think I understood certain themes). However, he's writing about humans, and human is a born warmonger. And unfortunately, sometimes war is necessary in the face of a real and tangible threat (World War II)
However, it would be too much of a generalization. The famous trilogy is very much for peace, like the author himself. (I'm no Tolkien scholar, like everybody seem to be these days, but I think I understood certain themes). However, he's writing about humans, and human is a born warmonger. And unfortunately, sometimes war is necessary in the face of a real and tangible threat (World War II)
01-10-03, 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Calculon
As a football fan, I see Oakland as Mordor. The Raiders and their fans are Orcs. Al Davis is Sauron. Rich Gannon is Saruman. Paul Tagliabue is Gandalf. The Broncos are the men of Rohan. Um, Dick Vermeil is Aragorn. Doug Flutie is Frodo. The ring is, of course, a Super Bowl ring.
As a football fan, I see Oakland as Mordor. The Raiders and their fans are Orcs. Al Davis is Sauron. Rich Gannon is Saruman. Paul Tagliabue is Gandalf. The Broncos are the men of Rohan. Um, Dick Vermeil is Aragorn. Doug Flutie is Frodo. The ring is, of course, a Super Bowl ring.
Best post I've read in a while.
01-12-03, 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Calculon
As a football fan, I see Oakland as Mordor. The Raiders and their fans are Orcs. Al Davis is Sauron. Rich Gannon is Saruman. Paul Tagliabue is Gandalf. The Broncos are the men of Rohan. Um, Dick Vermeil is Aragorn. Doug Flutie is Frodo. The ring is, of course, a Super Bowl ring.
As a football fan, I see Oakland as Mordor. The Raiders and their fans are Orcs. Al Davis is Sauron. Rich Gannon is Saruman. Paul Tagliabue is Gandalf. The Broncos are the men of Rohan. Um, Dick Vermeil is Aragorn. Doug Flutie is Frodo. The ring is, of course, a Super Bowl ring.
Personally, I have found the black hole of Oakland to be a brawling orc pit, so I applaud your insight.
