slop101

go here:

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...box/index.html

It's not a system-bashing article. It's a well thought-out piece detailing how the X-box is just more of the same.

- Make sure you read all 5 pages.

Gallant Pig

I read it as a guy who has a Microsoft chip on his shoulder and doesn't really know a lot about gaming.

Fanboy

Not a bad article, make some good (if unoriginal) points about the MS corporate culture leaking into its products as well as real dearth of quality launch software.

However, and perhaps I am just stupid, I cannot for the life of me understand this point:

"If a recent Nintendo projection is to be believed, of the $55- to $60 million next-generation consoles expected to sell over the next half-decade, GameCube will take over three-quarters of that share..."

Sooooo, is Nintendo projecting console gaming to only pull $55-60 million over the next 5 YEARS? WTF?

Someone's numbers are screwy...

ScandalUMD

That's nice. It was actually a very in-depth feature, and he talked to a lot of developers and industry experts.

I doubt Salon has any particular love for the X-Box, especially considering that Salon's rival Slate is owned by Microsoft, but he managed to show major weaknesses in the X-Box lineup, and he raises a lot of valid points.

I happen to think that Salon.com is one of the better news websites. They're usually pretty on target, and this piece was no exception. Whether you agree or disagree, he doesn't get any facts substantively wrong, and he certainly knew who to interview for this sort of story. Also, if you look at the links peppered through the story, he's clearly done his research.

Gallant Pig

I found his weakest argument to be going after X-Box's launch lineup, since it is a helluva lot better than what Sony launched with.

ScandalUMD

My bet is he wrote "of the 55-60 million next generation consoles expected to sell over the next half-decade" and his copy editor put in the dollar sign, thinking that was what he meant.

But if Nintendo expects the gamecube to dominate the sales like that, they're on crack.

Gallant Pig

BTW, this exact same article could have been written towards Sony last year when it launched, but using Dreamcast (and not Sony) as an example of a great, innovative system.

slop101

Yeah, but back then we knew that MGS2 was coming, we knew (at least I knew) that GTA3 was coming, we knew GT3 was coming, we knew DMC was coming, we knew TM:B was coming... I could go on. All these games came and were as great as promised.

What does X-box have coming?

- edited to add: I'm not really bashing, I should be getting my X-box in the mail next week, I'm just poiniting out that it doesn't have much on the horizon.

Gallant Pig

It has these "comming": UFC Tapout, Jet Grind Radio Future, Shenmue.

slop101

Is that all - that's worse than I thought. Compare those to what came out for the PS2 just this month and it's really pathetic.

Gallant Pig

I'm more interested in those games than anything on the PS2, save GTA 3, which will be out on the PC and the XBox in the future (and probably with better graphics in both cases).

SmackDaddy

Well, a more fair comparison would be to compare what comes out 1 year from now on the Xbox, and compare it to what came out a year later for the PS2. You can't compare things that don't yet exist.

With most software publishers going cross-platform, it's all going to boil down to console exclusive content. Nintendo has Mario/Zelda, Sony FF/GT etc and I'm sure Microsoft will develop franchises of their own.

Anyway, Shenmue II and Panzer Dragoon are enought for me to hunt down an Xbox by Christmas.

darkside

These were the same games that failed to help the Dreamcast though. I doubt the newer versions will really win the war for Microsoft either. Xbox needs a lot more than Sega to get themselves going. None of the above games are the killer ap the Xbox really needs.

The worst part for Microsoft is the Sega franchises that really sell well like Sega Sports are going to be multi system and Sonic is going to the Game Cube and Virtua Fighter 4 is going to the PS2.

Sega is not the savior of the Xbox, if anything they are really helping the competition.

Gallant Pig

To be honest, I'm not talking about being mediocre financially speaking, that could very well happen. I'm speaking in terms of game quality. UFC for dreamcast was regarded as the most realistic fighter ever, and many considered it to be the best fighting game over (people who think 100 hit combos are lame as hell, I'm guessing). Now beef up the graphics, add more features, make it go Online (booya) and you have a great game.

JGR looks really good, bigger worlds to rollerblade around in, better graphics. This game not changing much is a very good thing.

And Shenmue speaks for itself. I'm not sure about anyone playing it on the Dreamcast, since last I heard that was up in the air. But in any case, it will look great on a newer system, hopefully fixing things like people popping out of thin air when you walk around.

It will also be getting GTA3, put some better graphics on that baby, add online play, then you have a truly awesome game.

The short-term future of this system looks great in my eyes. Not mediocre in the least.

ScandalUMD

The graphics in GTA3 aren't really limited by the PS2 hardware, as much as by the sheer size of the game, and the added development time it would take to render such a huge city in greater detail. You won't see much of a difference on X-Box, because they aren't going to remodel, or even re-skin the entire city. As for the X-Box version, there's no release date. You'll be lucky to see it before summer.

And Shenmue 2 also has no release date that I'm aware of. I've never seen a screenshot or anything from it. IGN doesn't have anything on it. This game may not be out until 2003, and may not be X-Box exclusive.

Anyway, if you're a sega fan, I understand PS2 has an exclusive on Virtua Fighter 4, which has me slightly more excited than UFC Tapout. Does anyone even watch ultimate fighting?

Trigger

He's a decent writer, but that doesn't make this a good article. It's just filthy X-Box slander based on some anti-Microsoft campaign he's on. His only experience with the thing was back at some X-Box eXpo thing where they only had demos of 2 games... Halo and Oddworld. He talked about Halo as if the hero in that game would be the X-Box's signature character like Sonic was for Sega or Mario was for Nintendo... that's just retarded. Sony didn't need such a thing and they did fine. Characters like Sonic and Mario are just marketing gimmicks for kids to gravitate towards a system.

X-Box isn't even a week old yet and he's talking like it's probably gonna be over for them and that they aren't innovative and different enough. It sounded like he wanted the Xbox to be more like the PS2 in that respect instead of just another console, but it's the PS2 another console? Xbox is plenty innovative and they'll figure out their place in all this. Right now Microsoft is just testing the waters - trying not to stray too far from the norm. Once they are established, I think we'll see some really amazing things on that system. With Sega gone, there's room enough for a third console to be on the market. The X-Box will get the customer base and developers will gravitate towards the system more once they see that potential for profits. As for Launch titles - I think this is the strongest list of launch titles I've seen so far for any console dating back to the Atari 2600... I mean the PS2 had what? Fantavision? That didn't stop it from doing well.

The best argument some people can come up with for Xbox's potential to failure or being sucky is that Microsoft is this big ugly corporation and Bill Gates is evil. whatever... who cares? It's a video game console. Nothing more. And as if Sony and Nintendo are small companies. Microsoft has been into gaming for years... this isn't quite new territory for them, but the article criticizes them for not taking chances when clearly a better plan would be to offend as few people as possible and attract as many people as possible when you first enter the arena and then once you have supporters - then you can take chances. I mean it's taken Sony quite awhile to get to the point they are at now. I mean - think of how vanilla the original PS1 releases were and even the PS2 launch lineup was plain jane.

Alot of what they were saying was just slanted propaganda and wasn't even true anyway.

For example:
Oh really? Xbox has no games announced for 2002? That's funny, what are these then?

<small>Blood Wake Microsoft Action Pre·Order January, 2002
NBA 2K2 Sega Sports Pre·Order January 15, 2002
Fellowship of the Ring Sierra Action Early 2002
TransWorld Skateboarding Infogrames Sports Early 2002
Crazy Taxi Next Sega Action February 15, 2002
Wreckless: The Yakuza Mission Activision Action February 15, 2002
Medal of Honor: Allied Assault Electronic Arts Action February 2002
Maximum Chase Microsoft Action February 2002
Enclave Conspiracy Games Action Mid 2002
Unreal Championship Infogrames Action Q1 2002 (broadband launch)
Hunter: The Reckoning Interplay Action March 15, 2002
Buffy the Vampire Slayer Fox Interactive Action March 2002
Test Drive Infogrames Racing Pre·Order March 2002
House of the Dead 3 Sega Action March 3, 2002
New Legends THQ Action Pre·Order Q1 2002
Circus Maximus: Chariot Battle Encore Software Action Q1 2002
Jet Grind Radio Future Sega Action Q1 2002
Crash Rage Software Racing Q1 2002
Bounty Hunter Crave Entertainment Action Q1 2002
NFL Blitz 20-02 Midway Sports Pre·Order Q1 2002
Rayman Arena Ubi Soft Online Q1 2002
Spy Hunter Midway Action Q1 2002
Batman: Vengeance Ubi Soft Action Pre·Order TBA 2002
TimeSplitters 2 Eidos Interactive Action Q1 2002
Outlaw Golf Simon and Schuster Sports Q2 2002
Spyro Universal Interactive Studios Action Spring 2002
Mike Tyson Boxing Codemasters Sports April 2002
Brute Force Microsoft Action Q2 2002
The Matrix Interplay Action Spring 2002
Ghost Recon Ubi Soft Action Q2 2002
Malice: Kat's Tale Sierra Action Q2 2002
The Thing Universal Interactive Studios Action Q2 2002
Gravity Games Bike: Street. Vert. Dirt. Midway Sports Q2 2002
Gun Metal TBA Action Q2 2002
Red Card Soccer Midway Sports Q2 2002
Chris Edwards Inline Skating Acclaim Sports Q2 2002
Knockout Kings 2002 Electronic Arts Sports Q2 2002
Internal Pain TBA Action TBA 2002
Spider-Man: The Movie Activision Action TBA 2002
SWAT: Global Strike Team Sierra Action Q3 2002
Panzer Dragoon Sega Adventure 2002
Project Ego TBA Action Fall 2002
Mortal Kombat 5 Midway Fighting Q3 2002
Curse: The Eye of the Isis Wanadoo FTG Adventure Q3 2002
Pro Race Driver Codemasters Racing Q3 2002
NFL Blitz 20-03 Midway Sports Q3 2002
Legion: Legend of Excalibur Midway Strategy Q3 2002
NHL Hitz 20-03 Midway Sports Q3 2002
Freaky Flyers Midway Racing October 2002
Dr. Muto Midway Action TBA 2002
Minority Report Activision Action TBA 2002
Duality Phantagram Adventure Fall 2002
Strident Phantagram Action Q1 2002
Ultimate Blade of Darkness Codemasters Action Q4 2002
Defender Midway Action Q4 2002
Wrath TBA Action TBA
Sam and Max TBA Action TBA
Matt Hoffman's Pro BMX 2 Activision Action TBA 2002
Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer Activision Action TBA 2002
Genma Onimusha Capcom Entertainment Action TBA 2002
Colin McRae Rally 3 Codemasters Racing TBA 2002
David Beckham Soccer Rage Software Action TBA 2002
Rally Trophy JoWood Productions Racing TBA 2002
Rocky Rage Software Sports TBA 2002
Race of Champions Activision Racing TBA 2002
Xavier Fox: The Lost City TBA Action TBA 2002
SK8 Rage Software Sports Winter 2002
Yager THQ Action TBA
Pirates of Skull Cove Electronic Arts Adventure 2002
Crimson Sea Koei RPG 2002
Jackie Chan Adventures Sony Pictures Consumer Products Action TBA 2002
MLB SlugFest 20-03 Midway Sports TBA 2002
Dead to Rights Namco Action TBA 2002
Soul Calibur 2 Namco Fighting TBA 2002
Ridge Racer Xbox Namco Racing TBA 2002</small>

This article had an anti-Microsoft agenda... although I did find a few points to be interesting - I don't think I can fully trust a site that doesn't even ask permission before linking to other sites... Now I know we do it here, but if I was running my own semi-high profile news site - I'd be a bit more considerate than that.

I don't know - I read the article from start to finish and that's the impression I got from it... could've just been me though. I don't have any real console preference... they all sound equally appealing I guess... I'm more of a PC gamer myself although I recently bought a Dreamcast. If the consoles cost 50 bucks and the games were only 10 - 20 bucks each, I'd get all of them. I'm not in love with Microsoft either... I basically just don't care - but I think that article was very biased.

Tuan Jim

Elder Scrolls: Morrowind *drool*, Project Ego *ecstasy*, Yager, Galleon, Gun Metal, Moto GP, Jet Set Radio Future, Wreckless, Blood Wake, Brute Force, Unseen, etc.

Tuan Jim

Anthony Soprano

The article seemed biased against Microsoft.

ScandalUMD

Sheesh. It's more of a feature/editorial than a news article, because Salon more closely resembles a magazine than a newspaper. In most of their stories, the writers take a position on an issue, or offer interpretation that would undermine objectivity in a straight news article. Taking a position doesn't automatically undermine somebody's credibility, however.

He definitely takes a position against the X-Box. That's the whole point of the story. But he's doing a lot more than just ranting there. He found developers and industry watchers who supported his thesis, and they helped him to prove his point. He makes a lot of good points, and the fact that the author takes an angle hardly undermines the story.

Additionally, whoever made the remark about linking without permission, under copyright law, you don't need permission to link to content, but you need permission to duplicate it. Howard Kurtz, the Washington Post's media critic, links to all the articles he references.

Centurion

I agree. Positional writings are difficult and including references is the best support to prove your case. The references should be from a reputable source though.
This article is the type of feedback I enjoy reading. Subjective but supported. It's difficult to write an article like this one with only facts.

I like the games on the XBOX and think it's the better console for me among the top three contenders (Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft). No matter what anyone has to say about it, the most important opinion is my own.

spacecowboy1

You FUDmeisters just can't stop can you? The fact that this article was even posted here is bogus at best. Every article or report that show even the slightest smack of contempt for Microsoft/XBox gets posted here. Some of you here seem as if you've turned smiting MS into some crusade. If XBox will fail and nothing can save it, why do you relenlessly serve up FUD? What are you so insecure about? Can someone please give me an intelligent answer to that question???

ScandalUMD

What is FUD, anyway? This was the article Salon.com, a major web-based publication, put out regarding the release of the X-Box. It is very interesting, very well researched, and merits some discussion.

If you think the article is wrong, why don't you refute some of the points the author made. That might be worthwhile.

spacecowboy1

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.



There are so many web-based slants on the XB, GC, and PS2. Some of them are positive, some of them are negative. The writer of the salon.com article definately (as some here have already pointed out) have an axe to grind w/ MS. For obvious MS/XB haters such as yourself (ScandalUMD) and others, this is another attempt at a potshot against MS. There are swirls of web-based criticism against the PS2, why don't we discuss that? The XB is selling well. Here in Atlanta, GA [b]there is not an XB to be found anywhere. My closest Best Buy got in another shipment today and they didn't even hit the shelves; they went straight from the box to waiting, happy hands.

I am so sick of all these "we still have 9 out of 14 left at our store since last Thursday" and the "there were only 4 people in line for 32 Xboxes at the local store". There are 2 things that bother me about these accounts that are no more than attempted potshots at MS: First, we live in a way different ecomony than we did one year ago, and even 2 months ago!!! People are spending far less money than they did then. Back then the PS2 was released w/ NO competition whatsoever from a new rival console. Plus, Sony was riding on the hills of the mega successful king, the PS1 - the console that changed gaming forever. The PS2 had no other option but to be successful!!! Under those circumstances it was destined for greatness from a marketing and sales perspective!!! Why even if the XB was released head to head against the PS2 a year ago, it would've been no contest - the PS2 still would've outsold it by a margin of 5 to 1 , or some ridiculous number like that. Just those facts alone show that it is unfair to compare the PS2 and XB launch. I don't know any of you at all, but I will assume that you are all intelligent enough to appreciate that. MS knows that this is an uphill battle. They are not trying to capture the crown overnight. XB has been released for 3 days now and some of you are still trying to bury it.

Second, all of these reports of XBoxes sitting on the shelves collecting dust can be neither comfirmed nor denied by the rest of us. We all know that haters and fanboys will say anything and distort fact to support their dislike of anything but their pet brand. I live in a typical big city. There are more retail outlets (literally hundreds) here than you can imagine (any other Atlantans on this board can confirm this), and you CANNOT find an XBOX here to save your life. There may be some areas here in the U.S. where you can walk in and snag an XB, but not in the places where it counts. And for the typical American who just got a PS2 6 to 8 mos. ago, why should they go out and buy an XBOX when they are perfectly happy w/ their PS2? The object in all this: The interest in XBOX will not be decided at launch, and cannot be compared to the PS2 launch. Anyone who does not agree w/ me 100% is stupid and will be burned alive.

Centurion

Speaking of being sold out of XBOX in the Atlanta area, anyone in Los Angeles know if it is sold out?
As far as I know, it is all gone! There are no more in the metro area and in the San Fernando Valley area of L.A.

It'll be interesting to hear if Orange and Ventura Counties are sold out too (these are the adjacent counties to Los Angeles).