Steve

Since I am currently boycotting Criterion (too complex to explain here, but I am fed up with them releasing old films, slapping on a commentary or what I consider non-important supplements to justify a $40 price tag), I am pursuing non-criterion alternates to the films they release.

I have recently discovered that DDDhouse (and hivizone) is selling the Japanese version of Akira Kurosawa films for about $8 to $10 US. I just purchased Yojimbo and was very pleased. While the picture has greys, and not dark black, the picture is very clear, good subtitles, widescreen, with DD 5.1, and a very complete filmography and biography of Kurosawa. The film does have a strange very very light green tint to it, which isn't as bad as it sounds...Hey, for $8 I consider this quite a bargain.

I was wondering if anybody has seen the other non-Criterion versions of Kurosawas, and if they are all as good as Yojimbo..I could buy 4 of these for the price of 1 criterion . No, the picture will not be as pristine, and there will be no commentary that I will fall asleep listening to, but that's okay with me.

Comments?

Chumley1

I've heard that the subtitles on those discs are extremely poor translations. It's been hard for me to resist buying some of my favorites like Ikiru and Red Beard, but I have faith that someday all of Kurosawa's films will be done well on DVD.

Darren Garrison

There is a Fox Lorber (sp?) version of Ran, but the quality is rather low. It looks like something put out by Fox Lorber.

witchblade

There is Madadayo avalable from Fox Lorber. Great film! Good transfert from them.

I have that one... Do you want to trade?

nemein

I've been collecting them as well, I usually pick up one or two w/ every import order. The quality does vary, I picked up Sanshiro Sugata and parts of it are so dark you can't make out what's going on The other major downside is some show up as flipper w/ no indication that there are (Red Beard and Hidden Fortress come to mind off hand). On the plus side, this is most likely the only way you are going to be able to get some of them anytime soon, possibly at all.

DismalScience

This being a family-oriented DVD forum it is hard to
say how bad the Hong Kong DVDs are. But here goes ...

Translations ... when I who speak no Japanese can
correct the translation, we have a big problem. Thus
in one masterpiece when the film uses the word "judo"
the translation is "karate" and when the word "jujitsu"
is used the screen shows "kung fu." If you sit down
with paper and pencil you can figure out why this
works out but still ...

Transfers ... . Compare the unwatchable HK DVD of
Hidden Fortress with the glorious Criterion transfer. Try the fire festival scene as instance.

I agree that Ran isn't at all bad but one wouldn't
use "glorious" to describe it.

The interesting test will be to compare the Criterion
transfers in the Eisenstein box with the Image transfers. The Image Nevsky was fine as I remember.

There is a sad theorem in economics which says that either you get what you pay for or the seller goes out of business. I'm sure I'm not the only one here whose Criterion collection came from Reel.Com with a BforL
rebate.

talespinner

I picked up Throne of Blood and The Bad Sleep Well from DDDHouse back in February when I got CTHD. TOB (Kurosawa's Macbeth) is one of my favorite films and since it was so cheap... Also took a chance on TBSW since I read a review that said it was Kurosawa's Hamlet, which sounded mighty interesting to me.

Well, I got what I paid for.

Here's some specs: The disc quality was fairly average - not Criterion (which I like) but not Madacy (which I hate). TOB is full screen (which I think is the original framing like Seven Samurai) and TBSW is widescreen. Also, TBSW is a flipper. The subtitles are laughable. Whoever did the translations for these KOREAN (not Japanese) discs has a loose understanding of Japanese and a loose understanding of English, so it's lucky that I've got a Master's degree in literature to be able to figure it out :^)
I'd seen TOB several times before, so I knew what was going on, but TBSW was almost an exercise in futility. Anyone know where to find a translated script for these flims so that I could read along?

All in all, for the price I'm pleased to have them, but I probably won't buy any more. And if Criterion ever decides to put these two out, I'll definitely pick them up.

I also have the Fox Lorber DVD of Ran (Kurosawa's King Lear) and although it's not the best it could be, it's leagues beyond the Korean discs, and well worth adding to your collection.

bdots48

I've got about a dozen of these kurosawas. The subtitles generally drive me batty, but less than good quality kurosawa is better than none at all. When criterion is available I get them. For 8-10 bucks I say get 'em, but after watching my new criterion hidden fortress - It was worth every extra frigging penny I spent to get the criterion edition. No comparison.

bokonon

I would recommend staying away from the HK(Mei Ah) version of "Record of a Living Being". I'm pretty easy to please in the transfer department, but this one was awful. The image would "smear" during any sudden on-screen movement. And the subtitles, I have several of these Kurosawa's myself, and I swear there is at least one person named Chung in every movie. Must be the Chinese equivalent to "Smith". The subtitles are amusing, if nothing else.

bboisvert

I really don't want to turn this into another Criterion debate thread, but I couldn't just let this comment pass by without adding my two pennies.

Criterion is also doing an incredible job of remastering these "old films" that they put out. Some of the video restoration on their titles is nothing short of astounding. I also find a lot of their supplements to be very valuable, not slapped on.

Plus, they are a MUCH smaller company than most major studios and are releasing (in general) fairly obscure titles that don't appeal to the masses. I think their pricing is fairly appropriate and likely necessary to stay in business.

If you want to spend $10 for a poor-quality Kurosawa imports, I suppose that's your decision. But, even in today's coupon-free online environment, I've only paid about $20 or so for my Criterions. I got THE HIDDEN FORTRESS for $14.


To answer your actual question, I've seen a few of these non-Criterion Kurosawa imports and I find the quality to be very lacking. It's not what I've come to expect from the DVD format and I wouldn't spend my money on them...

movieguy65

I agree with you completely. I view Criterion much like some art restoration experts. They are doing a valuable service for all to enjoy. I generally get Criterions relatively cheap, too. But where'd you pick up Hidden Fortress for 14? I'm interested. And what about the others for 20? thanks

TheV

I actually think you would like the non-Criterion Kurosawa films. Since you don't seem to notice the restoration on the other Criterion DVDs you probably won't notice how crappy the HK versions are. I'd say go ahead and buy them and then spend the money you saved on some new glasses.

Shawn

The Film Preserve

Criterion is a small company tilting at windmills.

In a world of mass merchandising and POP displays, they
believe in creating video transfers which fully represent
the filmmakers' visions.

This comes neither easily nor inexpensively. Rights,
transfers, added materials with, along the way, an
expensive and time-consuming video restoration process
all go into the cost of publishing these works.

When you add a Criterion title to your collection, you
are getting the best that can be done with that particular
title. There is no feeling that "maybe someone else will
or can do it better."

Those intimately knowledgeable with the Kurosawa titles know
how important detail, blacks, white, greys, shadows and
everything in between, is to his works. If dialogue is
translated incorrectly, one has a different film.

Adding anything other than the Criterion Kurosawa's to
one's collection is much like purchasing a "gold" Polex
on a city streetcorner. The jacket may fool your
friends, but you don't want to see what is inside.

For the record, the Kurosawa films are a mixed blessing.
Original negatives of all of the early films were junked
years ago, many with only second rate preservation materials,
if any.

The trick here for Criterion begins with finding an element
that can even be used as a basis.

For those who don't mind owning a Polex, there are
alternatives.

RAH

Steve

Ok - now you have really gotten to me. I LOVE movies and appreciate a great transfer. I CAN tell the difference from a restoration and a non-restoration. But I do not think that Criterion always puts out great transfers..

1) Brazil. Yeah, the non-movie (i.e. supplements) were great, but the video was only marginally (I repeat marginally) better than the Univeral version. And the audio was the same.

2) Alexander Nevsky. inferior to the Image release.

3) W.C. Fields 6 shorts. This is the worst video of the Dentist I have ever seen. VHS is better. (at least this wasn't $40!). And the audio on the Pharmasist was deplorable (imho).

4) Scarlet Empress. Check out the reviews on Amazon - excessive grain, poor transfer, etc.

5) Hard Boild. Winstar was just as good, if not slightly better than Criterion.

I care more about the film quality than the supplements, but I also have a limited budget. That is why I was asking if the print quality of non-criterion was good. Sometimes you do NOT get what you pay for. A $10 burger is just as good as a $40 burger..it is only when the meat is clearly Filet Mignon when the price difference is justified.

Criterion is, in my opinion, absolutely positively no different than any other DVD manufuacturer. Some video trnasfer great, some poor. Some Audio restoration great, some poor. Some supplements great, some poor.

And as far as releasing cult, silent, classic and eccentric films, no studio has the breath and depth than Image does. Yet I hear nobody praising them like Criterion! Have you checked out their restored silent collection? Incredible! These films look better than most films released today!

I hope I have made my point. Buying a Criterion release does NOT guarentee anything other than paying the most money for a DVD.

As far as HK DVDs - yes, they are very uneven. But so are US DVDs. Some HK releases are extremely good, and considering I can pick most of them up for under $11USD, I think this is quite a good bargain.

thank you for listening...

TheV

I think you miss the point. Or you at least forgot what you said in the first place. You said you were boycotting the Criterion in favor of the HK discs. Now you backtrack and say Criterion isn't perfect. Sure, no one said that. They have a few bad discs. But Fox/Lorber has a few good discs as well. I think you forgot your comments that started the thread so let me remind you..."I am fed up with them releasing old films, slapping on a commentary or what I consider non-important supplements to justify a $40 price tag".

We just wanted to point out to you since you seem to overlook that Criterion restores the films before they go onto DVD. Most look more beautiful than they ever did. That justifies the $40 (though I've gotten most of mine well under that) MSRP IMHO.

Shawn

Steve

Well, you all have brought up excellent points. And yes, there are some incredible films with incredible transfers by Criterion. I guess I am just frustrated that I don't have the money to get all the ones I want. I thought DVD was for the everyday working person. Criterion $40 price tags make me feel they are for the rich and elite.

I find that pre-ordering really doesn't work for me, because I frequently find out later that the disc has problems or the transfer isn't worth the money. Even Criterion occassionally has this problem, and I almost bought the Scarlett Empress - glad I waited for the reviews.
Also, occassionaly, other companies DO put out equally great transfers (Image - Alexander Nevsky, Anchor Bay - Hitchcock films that are upcoming on Criterion!, etc.). I find that if I wait long enough, most companies are REDUCING their prices over time, and with the used market, I can get DVDs for at least %50 off.

But the wait and buy 1/2 price via used DVD market doesn't apply to Criterion. Indeed, the opposite effect seems to happen. For about 1 year (or less it seems) after a release from Criterion, their license expires, the disc goes OOP, becames a rare collectible, and selles for $150 on ebay!

I am still disconcerted at the trend of Criterion to actually Increase their prices (Sparticus is $50!), while other companies are LOWERING theirs. MGM Midnight Movies, for example, has special editions for $15 list!! And sorry, I think x-the man with the x-ray eyes is a better film than Fied without a Face!

Anyway, not much I can do really. Re-looked at my Japanese version of Yojimbo, and I like it less and less each time I see it. sigh...Maybe I can't afford this hobby anymore.

thanks for listening.

Scarecrow

Steve,

I agree that sometimes Criterions prices can seem high. I'm still wrestling with whether I'll get Spartacus or not. I have the older release and I'm not sure I can justify the new one to myself when I could get two other great titles for the same price.

As far as their Kurosawa titles go though only two of the five have MSRPs of $40 and can be had for around $30 shipped online.

Seven Samurai MSRP $40 Online $28.00
High and Low MSRP $40 Online $28.00
Yojimbo MSRP S30 Online $21.00
Sanjuro MSRP $30 Online $21.00
Hidden Fortress MSRP $30 Online $21.00

The other US companies that have Kurosawa films out have comparable prices.

Ran MSRP $35 Online $21.00 Fox Lorber
Madadayo MSRP $25 Online $16.00 Fox Lorber
Dersu Uzala MSRP $40 Online $28.00 Image

So Image is just as costly as Criterion, at least for Kurosawa. Is $28.00 more than the price of an average DVD? Sure it is, but not really that much more. Believe me I understand how frustrating it can be sometimes. I don't really see $40 as "Elitest" pricing though. Now LD pricing, that was high. Really only a handfull of Criterions have gone OOP, it's not like all of them go OOP after a year or two.

If you don't have it already I can say that Seven Samurai is without a doubt worth it's higher price. It's price isn't really all that bad either comparably. I paid $30 for it on VHS way back when which looks nowhere near as good.


On another note anyone seen Image's Dersu Uzala? How's the transfer look? How's the sound? Is it in a snapper? (not that it'd stop me, just wondering).

jonathan.e

If this ever began as a Bargain thread it no longer is - to Talk forum.

movieguy65

Yes, I own Dersu Uzala. The transfer is really good, considering what they probably had to work with. It is one of my favorite movies and I definitely recommend it. It is in a snapper case. The sound is decent, too- mono of course.