Is it OK to advocate murder here?
#1
Suspended
Thread Starter
Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Someone started a thread today calling for homeless people to be stomped on like the cockroaches they are. He later clarified he only meant homeless junkies.
A mod responded by moving the thread from wherever it was (Other, I guess) to Politics, since OP was blaming the homeless junkie problem on liberals. Which probably runs afoul of the “no generalizing” rule, but whatever.
I made a post suggesting that maybe instead of moving the “hey, let’s crush homeless junkies because they’re cockroaches” thread, it should have been deleted or at least locked.
In response, a mod deleted my post.
I guess my question is what kind of forum is this? Am I really the only one who has an issue with that kind of violent, disgusting language about human beings, even homeless, drug-addicted human beings? To the point where even suggesting that maybe that kind of talk doesn’t belong here gets my post deleted?
A mod responded by moving the thread from wherever it was (Other, I guess) to Politics, since OP was blaming the homeless junkie problem on liberals. Which probably runs afoul of the “no generalizing” rule, but whatever.
I made a post suggesting that maybe instead of moving the “hey, let’s crush homeless junkies because they’re cockroaches” thread, it should have been deleted or at least locked.
In response, a mod deleted my post.
I guess my question is what kind of forum is this? Am I really the only one who has an issue with that kind of violent, disgusting language about human beings, even homeless, drug-addicted human beings? To the point where even suggesting that maybe that kind of talk doesn’t belong here gets my post deleted?
#2
Moderator
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
You are not the only one. That is a sickening way to speak of some of the most vulnerable people in our nation.
#5
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Yet when you want to voice a strong opinion towards that person, guess who gets suspended?
I'm guessing that reporting someone that advocates murdering will do nothing.
I'm guessing that reporting someone that advocates murdering will do nothing.
#6
Banned
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Perhaps it should be noted that there have been others advocating violence against others engaged in legal activities. We even had a case of someone advocating the assassination of a politician currently holding office.
When people defend or don't speak out against such sentiments, they shouldn't be surprised when someone else goes down that path.
#7
Admin
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Upon further review, the homeless thread was closed. My initial reaction on most threads is not to close them or suspend people. While I don't believe we should have a wild west here where anything goes like the Yahoo comment section, I also believe in a Laissez-faire approach to the forums. My initial thought is that the OP's point (to crush homeless like a bug) was so stupid that the forum would easily show how ridiculous it was by bringing up the fact that mental health facilities had been closed in order to save money and give people tax breaks. That many of the homeless need access to mental health counseling and medication, but do not have the access they need. There was an opportunity to show the real cause of the mentally ill running in the homeless community.
To be honest with you, the situation where someone reports a post of a poster saying "Fuck you asshole" to someone is a clear violation of the rules and is a personal attack. I may only have 5 min to look at the RTP and make a decision. There may have been other things leading up to that pages before, but since no one said anything about it, I don't always have the time to read back pages and pages to figure out what else might have lead to the personal attack and if other actions should be taken.
What I don't like is when one of the mods makes a call and the thread gets sidetracked with, "Mod, you're wrong, why don't you do your fucking job?! I guess this place just loves racists and bigots and murderers " A lot of things can be handed via RTP, PM, or Feedback.
To be honest with you, the situation where someone reports a post of a poster saying "Fuck you asshole" to someone is a clear violation of the rules and is a personal attack. I may only have 5 min to look at the RTP and make a decision. There may have been other things leading up to that pages before, but since no one said anything about it, I don't always have the time to read back pages and pages to figure out what else might have lead to the personal attack and if other actions should be taken.
What I don't like is when one of the mods makes a call and the thread gets sidetracked with, "Mod, you're wrong, why don't you do your fucking job?! I guess this place just loves racists and bigots and murderers " A lot of things can be handed via RTP, PM, or Feedback.
Last edited by VinVega; 06-04-18 at 07:10 AM.
#8
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#9
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
I'll bite.
Nothing violent here, and a pretty basic statement. People are being dehumanized by racists, as they have been for centuries. Instead of trying not to hurt the racist's feelings ("Excuse me kind sir. You calling that man a *********** is not appropriate, and I don't mean to interject, but if you really feel that way about them, you should still keep it to yourself if you don't mind. Thank you for your time."), respect the fact that they don't give a shit, stop playing games and just call them a racist for doing and saying blatantly racist things.
The first is a reference to a recent event. As is the second, albeit a bit less recent. The third is just a catch-all for anyone doing/saying supremacist things. The first two are advocating for specific types of assault; a non-violent response to racists, and a violent one towards nazis. That said, toning down the assault/violence is probably a better measure, though, especially in light of the "anti racists are as bad as the real racists!" garbage-tier arguments that get made. Sure, white supremacists and nationalists advocate for systems in which non-whites are lesser human beings that may deserve to be slaughtered if they don't comply with the goals of the ethnostate, while the "just racist, but not violent" allies of the supremacists and nationalists sit idly by saying "I make racist jokes because they're funny, but I don't get involved in politics," buuuuuuuuut... if someone makes them feel bad for those beliefs, or subjects them to a lesser version of the violence they intend to unleash on others, then who's the real racist/nazi/supremacist, right?
(I really do think toning down the violent rhetoric is for the best, though, if for no other reason than the fact that it allows nazis/supremacists to use it as a veneer of being the real victims; "See?? I'm just TALKING about a plan that inevitably leads to mass genocide, but they want to PUNCH me for it! So much for the tolerant left!")
Yeah that sounds about right. Nothing in the quoted tweet is quite as bad as advocating for the elimination of all homeless people (or even just the homeless junkies) by stomping them out, as per the topic of this thread.
The tweet is suggestive, but not racist, demeaning, or calling for murder.
Which parts of the tweet do you believe do not belong on DVDTalk?
fake edit: and just because I think it's worthwhile, there IS an issue with violent rhetoric on "the left." I feel like this video covers the topic better than any other I've seen, without providing a specific point of view as "correct."
Stop putting the comfort of racists over the well-being of the people they're trying to dehumanize
Throw a drink at a racist
Punch a nazi
Shame and shun a supremacist
Punch a nazi
Shame and shun a supremacist
(I really do think toning down the violent rhetoric is for the best, though, if for no other reason than the fact that it allows nazis/supremacists to use it as a veneer of being the real victims; "See?? I'm just TALKING about a plan that inevitably leads to mass genocide, but they want to PUNCH me for it! So much for the tolerant left!")
Coddling assholes because we don't know how to be discerning with our empathy & sympathy is how we got HERE
The tweet is suggestive, but not racist, demeaning, or calling for murder.
Which parts of the tweet do you believe do not belong on DVDTalk?
fake edit: and just because I think it's worthwhile, there IS an issue with violent rhetoric on "the left." I feel like this video covers the topic better than any other I've seen, without providing a specific point of view as "correct."
Spoiler:
#10
Moderator
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
#11
Suspended
Thread Starter
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
#12
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
To be fair, the president said he could shoot someone and not lose votes, he suggested his supporters murder his political opponent, and his lawyer said he could've shot his employee rather than firing him. All this murder talk just sounds presidential to me.
#13
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
I agree with JasonF above, so I won't re-state most of what he said, but...
TheBigDave, I think you generally have good intentions (for what it's worth, even if that's nothing to you), but that is a fascinating leap of reasoning. Just to summarize:
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.
To me it seems like your issue isn't with the "Punch a nazi" meme itself, but the perceived intentions of those who say it and/or share it. I get that... we're all guilty of jumping to conclusions in one way or another about others' intent, but in the effort of doing better and sticking to the example you provided (instead of devolving into countless whatabout-isms), nobody is calling for other members of the forum to be attacked; directly or suggestively. If you can make a strong link to such a claim, then use that, but I don't see it based on what you've said above.
While I'm at a point where I don't particularly find this kind of comment helpful, I do wonder...
Dave, what was your personal reaction to the above?
Let's be honest, those "punch a fascist" memes aren't about Nazis and the Klan. They're talking about Trump supporters. Every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
So when DVD Talk members are being called fascist, racist, white supremacist, etc. I don't think it's appropriate to post memes advocating that they should be violently attacked.
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.
To me it seems like your issue isn't with the "Punch a nazi" meme itself, but the perceived intentions of those who say it and/or share it. I get that... we're all guilty of jumping to conclusions in one way or another about others' intent, but in the effort of doing better and sticking to the example you provided (instead of devolving into countless whatabout-isms), nobody is calling for other members of the forum to be attacked; directly or suggestively. If you can make a strong link to such a claim, then use that, but I don't see it based on what you've said above.
Settle down, snowflake.
Dave, what was your personal reaction to the above?
#14
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
It's also quite a stretch to state that "every right winger on this board has been called a racist/nazi/supremacist by other members". And even if that was true, where were the mods given a broad sweeping generalization like that would be against the rules?
But of course, just like some would try and say the POTUS is not a racist, the specific posters that has been called out continue to try and paint themselves as the victims. Because how dare people treat racists/Nazis/white supremacists as anything other than the good people they are?
But of course, just like some would try and say the POTUS is not a racist, the specific posters that has been called out continue to try and paint themselves as the victims. Because how dare people treat racists/Nazis/white supremacists as anything other than the good people they are?
#15
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
My initial thought is that the OP's point (to crush homeless like a bug) was so stupid that the forum would easily show how ridiculous it was by bringing up the fact that mental health facilities had been closed in order to save money and give people tax breaks. That many of the homeless need access to mental health counseling and medication, but do not have the access they need. There was an opportunity to show the real cause of the mentally ill running in the homeless community.
It seems like that might be an approach to consider in the future for cases like this. I do think you're right that this was an opportunity for meaningful discussion, but I also think others are right that the forum should not tolerate statements explicitly promoting violence against individuals or groups of people. Removing the violent statement but leaving the rest of the post could have satisfied both of those things.
The dialog on this forum will be a lot better when everyone stops using the term "snowflake" like this. No, it doesn't compare to advocating violence against anyone, but it's still a demeaning and dismissive thing to say that does nothing but put people on the defensive and shut down potentially useful discussion.
#16
Suspended
Thread Starter
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Dave, I apologize for calling you Snowflake and using the phrase “settle down.” That was wrong of me and you didn’t deserve it.
#17
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#18
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
The dialog on this forum will be a lot better when everyone stops using the term "snowflake" like this. No, it doesn't compare to advocating violence against anyone, but it's still a demeaning and dismissive thing to say that does nothing but put people on the defensive and shut down potentially useful discussion.
I don't think any liberals have coopted the term "SJW" yet. I find that one even more inflammatory.
#19
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Big kudos to JasonF for apologizing. The forum could definitely use more of that and less vitriol.
I don't think any liberals have co-opted the term "SJW" yet. I find that one even more inflammatory.
#21
Moderator
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
TheBigDave, I think you generally have good intentions (for what it's worth, even if that's nothing to you), but that is a fascinating leap of reasoning. Just to summarize:
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.
You read "Punch a nazi" (which is what it literally says) as
"punch a fascist" as
"punch Trump supporters" as
"punch right wing DVDTalk members"
because some DVDTalk members have been accused of being fascist, racist, white supremacist by some other DVDTalk members. Therefore you feel it's inappropriate for "Punch a nazi" to appear on this forum, not because it advocates violence, but because it advocates violence against DVDTalk members, even though they're... not nazis. My intent isn't to strawman you, but to figure out what it is you're really arguing against. So if I've misunderstood or misrepresented your position above, DO correct me.
There's a lot of people out there that think by supporting Trump, you're a racist/fascist/supremacist. I don't wear a MAGA hat out in public, because I'm concerned about how people will react. I don't want someone throwing a drink on me in a restaurant. Or coming up behind me and punching me in the face. I should be able to show support for my candidate without worrying about some stranger reacting violently.
But I guess that's the point of those antifa memes.
#22
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Conversely (and rightfully so IMO) a lot of minorities see some MAGA hats when out in public and legitimately get very nervous. See below:
I think it would go a long away towards lessening the tension if there was far less whatboutism when specific issues with Trump are pointed out Especially the blatant examples of racism and threats of violence towards anybody that opposes those in MAGA hats.
I think it would go a long away towards lessening the tension if there was far less whatboutism when specific issues with Trump are pointed out Especially the blatant examples of racism and threats of violence towards anybody that opposes those in MAGA hats.
#23
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Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Here's the problem I have with it. It's not about that particular post. There's a lot of variations on that meme that get posted here from time to time. Sometimes it's a nazi, other times it's a klan member, whatever. I was just talking about the pro-violence antifa memes in general.
There's a lot of people out there that think by supporting Trump, you're a racist/fascist/supremacist.
If you haven't said/done any of those things (and I DO believe that you haven't), then that's fantastic. But at the very least, I would hope that you can understand that that's what people are encountering. Hate crimes are up, right?
If you don't associate with any of that kind of shit, then that's great (and commendable!), but the sentiment coming from the other side isn't completely unwarranted, either. I think modern "centrism" is kind of bullshit in some ways, but in regard to reasonable concerns about what others are saying, there's some middle-ground. But when people generalize about what "Trump supporters" are like, it's because those are the types they end up interacting with, just as when other people generalize about what "libtards" are like, it's because... those are the types they end up interacting with.
I don't wear a MAGA hat out in public, because I'm concerned about how people will react. I don't want someone throwing a drink on me in a restaurant. Or coming up behind me and punching me in the face. I should be able to show support for my candidate without worrying about some stranger reacting violently.
But I guess that's the point of those antifa memes.
1. Sure, to crack jokes, and
2. To be a bit aggressive, but
I feel like one core purpose is to figuratively jar people into seeing things from another perspective. The worry/concern you feel about wearing a MAGA hat? That's what a lot of others have been going through for a long time. Except, it's not hats, it's their skin. Or who they're holding hands with. Or the name they prefer to be called. Or the color they want to dye their hair. People get picked on (putting it lightly) for all sorts of crap that they, generally, can't change about themselves. So if you're concerned about wearing a MAGA hat, I get it, but I implore you to try to consider what that symbol means to the country at large, and to the people who have a legitimate reason to be wary of anyone wearing one.
*because I like to try to be informative about some things, I highly recommend watching this hour-long YouTube video about the events of Charlottesville, based on footage from some of the main folks involved. There may have been a lot of guys who were in over their heads, not really understanding what they were rallying for, but that doesn't excuse their association with these types.
Spoiler:
Cheers man.
#24
Banned
Re: Is it OK to advocate murder here?
Considering the fact that the member in question seems to enjoy calling other forum members terms such as "coward" and "liar" and telling them to go fuck themselves (and brags about that!), "snowflake" seems pretty mild. Especially since the member in question repeatedly posts falsehoods about other members and then complains about those members by running to the feedback forum wanting his favorite targets to be banned.
Add to that the fact that the same member insults the entire forum and the moderators with every single post made regardless of the thread or forum (and that same sentiment has been co-opted by a like-minded forum member who similarly complains regularly about other members...to the amusement of the targets, who share laughs in less-public settings). It seems to be the sort of thing favored by most members here (we're a very tolerant group ), even if it would seem out-of-place elsewhere. At least, haven't seen any public complaints about their practice of publicly attacking mods with every post.
It all makes for an inviting, congenial, collegial atmosphere in which opposing viewpoints can be expressed and considered civilly.
It's all a Big Rock Candy Mountain. I suppose it's educational in a fascinating sort of way when one doesn't ordinarily encounter that sort of behavior in everyday life, and it has taken on a funny life of its own. It's almost like a game in which one tries to predict what bizarre event can top the previous ones. It's right up there with the people most frequently complaining about "trolls" who then repeatedly engage in trolling behavior (and, in at least one instance, brags about "trolling" others). You just can't write this stuff (at least, late night comedy staffs can't match it).
But, yeah, that apology was a grand gesture and concession! :
Last edited by creekdipper; 06-10-18 at 02:16 PM.