Evolution of the Direct Market
#1
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Evolution of the Direct Market
Interesting reading from the founder of Mile High Comics about the real history behind the direct market. Lots of developments from the 1970s I was only vaguely aware of and how Star Wars possibly saved the comic book industry in 1977.
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html
#3
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
I feel like I've read part of this before, though that may have just been a different account of the same occurrences. I'm still working my way through but his summary of the letter he wrote Marvel back in '79 struck a chord with me:
And then in the actual letter itself:
Also the guy was only 24 years old. I'm just getting to the Jim Shooter part but Shooter at the time must have been around 26, having started more than a decade earlier in comics at the tender age of 14.
Excellent analysis of the real cost of focusing on the direct market, and removing the entry point for a lot of potential readers, in this part:
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg110.html
o paraphrase my basic theme, I asked rhetorically "Why should I commit the rest of my life to working within the comics world if you idiots are rapidly running Marvel into the ground through your remarkably stupid and unprofessional policies?"
Another point is that we do not just salvage customers you otherwise would have lost, we also create new ones. At 40 cents and up, comics are no longer able to sell themselves. You have made the product so thin and unattractive with advertising that it takes salesmanship to get them to sell, even to collectors. How much salesmanship do you get in a 7-11? We go out of our way to sell comics, they are our main business. (For example, the Superman the Movie book from DC...I set up a stand in a local theater and sold over 1200). Isn't it about time we got some help and support?
Excellent analysis of the real cost of focusing on the direct market, and removing the entry point for a lot of potential readers, in this part:
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg110.html
Last edited by fujishig; 07-26-17 at 11:47 PM.
#4
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
There were some interesting points raised about the newsstand market that makes sense in retrospect. One reason why Marvel and DC were so quick to abandon newsstand distribution is that it was heavily mobbed up on the East Coast. The increasingly corporate business owners at Marvel and DC in the 1980s got nervous relying on New York mobsters for part of their business.
The owner of Mile High Comics made more news this year when he pulled out of the San Diego Comic Con for the first time in decades. He wrote a letter saying the Con owners have been pushing out comic book dealers over the last few years and it wasn't worth the hassles anymore as a straight comic book retailer.
The owner of Mile High Comics made more news this year when he pulled out of the San Diego Comic Con for the first time in decades. He wrote a letter saying the Con owners have been pushing out comic book dealers over the last few years and it wasn't worth the hassles anymore as a straight comic book retailer.
#5
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
They said the booths were too expensive this year, and they remember that their prices are mile high also and wouldnt make the money back.
#6
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Still haven't finished, but reading through this really reinforces the idea to me that the print market is outdated. Just the arcane practices of ordering and shipping all these comics, which is still a hassle today and just results in a ton of otherwise worthless paper that sits in long boxes. I realize not everyone is willing to go digital or trade only and that it is still the lifeblood of this industry, and I appreciate a good comic book store and the effort it takes to maintain one, but it just seems insane, especially with cover prices the way they currently are.
One thing that's interesting to me is that the digital distribution model is mainly funneled through one company and in some respects things are the same. I'd like to think of comixology as a benevolent entity that works well with all publishers, but they're run by a big corporation now that also sells physical books as well. I'd be curious to read why the big publishers didn't just pump resources into their own digital stores instead of going third party, though I guess that didn't work out for Dark Horse.
One thing that's interesting to me is that the digital distribution model is mainly funneled through one company and in some respects things are the same. I'd like to think of comixology as a benevolent entity that works well with all publishers, but they're run by a big corporation now that also sells physical books as well. I'd be curious to read why the big publishers didn't just pump resources into their own digital stores instead of going third party, though I guess that didn't work out for Dark Horse.
#7
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
The owner of Mile High Comics made more news this year when he pulled out of the San Diego Comic Con for the first time in decades. He wrote a letter saying the Con owners have been pushing out comic book dealers over the last few years and it wasn't worth the hassles anymore as a straight comic book retailer.
#8
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
I think the biggest thing driving dealers away from conventions is the internet. Between Rozanski's own Mile High Comics website, MyComicShop, Midtown, and eBay, there's no need to go to a convention and dig through longboxes to find stuff you don't have. In the 70s, 80s, and 90s, sure, but now it's just an outdated business model.
If I want some random cheap comic back issue, i'll get them at a comic convention in the $1 boxes. I won't use the internet and pay $5 shipping on top of the price of the book. If I want some expensive issue (CGC graded), I'd order it online as I know the prices are going to be cheaper for those online than at the cons.
Incidently if you want good deals on books, support your little local comic book shows that are held at teh conference rooms at hotels. Their booth prices are cheaper and they often get collectors that either need money or want to get out of collecting. They'll get booths their and try to unload their books for cheap. I was at one not too long ago and manged to get some near mint 9.2 or better copies of Tower of Shadows #1, G.I. Joe #2, Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, and a few others for $4 each. I got a few for myself and managed to flip some of them for $35-50 each on Ebay.
#9
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Interesting reading from the founder of Mile High Comics about the real history behind the direct market. Lots of developments from the 1970s I was only vaguely aware of and how Star Wars possibly saved the comic book industry in 1977.
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html
http://www.milehighcomics.com/tales/cbg95.html
Chuck Rozanski looks like the biggest redneck hippie you could ever meet but the guys quite smart and likely worth many millions of dollars.
#10
DVD Talk Hero
Thread Starter
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Still haven't finished, but reading through this really reinforces the idea to me that the print market is outdated. Just the arcane practices of ordering and shipping all these comics, which is still a hassle today and just results in a ton of otherwise worthless paper that sits in long boxes. I realize not everyone is willing to go digital or trade only and that it is still the lifeblood of this industry, and I appreciate a good comic book store and the effort it takes to maintain one, but it just seems insane, especially with cover prices the way they currently are.
One thing that's interesting to me is that the digital distribution model is mainly funneled through one company and in some respects things are the same. I'd like to think of comixology as a benevolent entity that works well with all publishers, but they're run by a big corporation now that also sells physical books as well. I'd be curious to read why the big publishers didn't just pump resources into their own digital stores instead of going third party, though I guess that didn't work out for Dark Horse.
One thing that's interesting to me is that the digital distribution model is mainly funneled through one company and in some respects things are the same. I'd like to think of comixology as a benevolent entity that works well with all publishers, but they're run by a big corporation now that also sells physical books as well. I'd be curious to read why the big publishers didn't just pump resources into their own digital stores instead of going third party, though I guess that didn't work out for Dark Horse.
#11
Senior Member
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Comic book conventions have mostly morphed into everything but comics. The problem with having aa comic book booth at a big con is that most people are spemding mony on celebrity autograpghs and photo ops. People aren't going to these big cons to buy floppies anymore.
If I want some random cheap comic back issue, i'll get them at a comic convention in the $1 boxes. I won't use the internet and pay $5 shipping on top of the price of the book. If I want some expensive issue (CGC graded), I'd order it online as I know the prices are going to be cheaper for those online than at the cons.
Incidently if you want good deals on books, support your little local comic book shows that are held at teh conference rooms at hotels. Their booth prices are cheaper and they often get collectors that either need money or want to get out of collecting. They'll get booths their and try to unload their books for cheap. I was at one not too long ago and manged to get some near mint 9.2 or better copies of Tower of Shadows #1, G.I. Joe #2, Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, and a few others for $4 each. I got a few for myself and managed to flip some of them for $35-50 each on Ebay.
If I want some random cheap comic back issue, i'll get them at a comic convention in the $1 boxes. I won't use the internet and pay $5 shipping on top of the price of the book. If I want some expensive issue (CGC graded), I'd order it online as I know the prices are going to be cheaper for those online than at the cons.
Incidently if you want good deals on books, support your little local comic book shows that are held at teh conference rooms at hotels. Their booth prices are cheaper and they often get collectors that either need money or want to get out of collecting. They'll get booths their and try to unload their books for cheap. I was at one not too long ago and manged to get some near mint 9.2 or better copies of Tower of Shadows #1, G.I. Joe #2, Saga of the Swamp Thing #21, and a few others for $4 each. I got a few for myself and managed to flip some of them for $35-50 each on Ebay.
I've found that if you browse around the organized books at dealer booths, sometimes you can find prices that are the same or a little cheaper than online + shipping. Often times, yes, they are above online prices though. Every time I've looked for specific books, I've found it would be cheaper for me to go on eBay and pay for shipping, or go on MyComicShop and just do one big order.
The only good deals I've seen at cons lately are discount trades. But even with that you're going for old and/or obscure stuff. Newer stuff you can usually snag new at something like InStockTrades for cheap, or certain used bookstores.
#12
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
If I want some random cheap comic back issue, i'll get them at a comic convention in the $1 boxes. I won't use the internet and pay $5 shipping on top of the price of the book. If I want some expensive issue (CGC graded), I'd order it online as I know the prices are going to be cheaper for those online than at the cons.
Many comic shops these days are doing away with long boxes and replace them with shelves of tpb's.
#13
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Sure, some dealers at cons have $1 bins of unbagged, unboarded, and unorganized comics from the bronze age through today. If you want to spend your time hunched over a box flipping through literally of hundreds of issues, then that's fine. For me, I find that to be a complete waste of time.
I've found that if you browse around the organized books at dealer booths, sometimes you can find prices that are the same or a little cheaper than online + shipping. Often times, yes, they are above online prices though. Every time I've looked for specific books, I've found it would be cheaper for me to go on eBay and pay for shipping, or go on MyComicShop and just do one big order.
The only good deals I've seen at cons lately are discount trades. But even with that you're going for old and/or obscure stuff. Newer stuff you can usually snag new at something like InStockTrades for cheap, or certain used bookstores.
I've found that if you browse around the organized books at dealer booths, sometimes you can find prices that are the same or a little cheaper than online + shipping. Often times, yes, they are above online prices though. Every time I've looked for specific books, I've found it would be cheaper for me to go on eBay and pay for shipping, or go on MyComicShop and just do one big order.
The only good deals I've seen at cons lately are discount trades. But even with that you're going for old and/or obscure stuff. Newer stuff you can usually snag new at something like InStockTrades for cheap, or certain used bookstores.
I generally got he trade hardcover route on mostly everything. I can usually get the trades for $5-7 at the cons and hardcovers for $15 or less. In the past year or so, I've been getting The Walking Dead trades for $5 each, much cheaper than online. A lot of these books are available at teh local libraries now too, so if it's not something obscure I can get it there just to read.
#14
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
I know my local comic shop still has long boxes but that store has a lot of space in multiple rooms. The long boxes are way in the back down a long halway. Upfront are the trades, new comics and toys.
#15
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Well, any backissue from what, the past 20 or even 30 years isn't really worth anything with few exceptions. And everything is available digitally or online so you don't even need to track things down to fill gaps, which is what I mainly bought backissues for as a kid.
As far as comics growing in revenue, I kinda feel like a lot of that is just milking the same fan base for more and more. Stuff like variant covers and shipping a ton of titles twice a month, then the endless crossovers, I'm most sure any of that brings new fans in. I think I will always be hooked on comics... my kids, not so much, despite my best efforts.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.
As far as comics growing in revenue, I kinda feel like a lot of that is just milking the same fan base for more and more. Stuff like variant covers and shipping a ton of titles twice a month, then the endless crossovers, I'm most sure any of that brings new fans in. I think I will always be hooked on comics... my kids, not so much, despite my best efforts.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.
#16
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Well, any backissue from what, the past 20 or even 30 years isn't really worth anything with few exceptions. And everything is available digitally or online so you don't even need to track things down to fill gaps, which is what I mainly bought backissues for as a kid.
As far as comics growing in revenue, I kinda feel like a lot of that is just milking the same fan base for more and more. Stuff like variant covers and shipping a ton of titles twice a month, then the endless crossovers, I'm most sure any of that brings new fans in. I think I will always be hooked on comics... my kids, not so much, despite my best efforts.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.
As far as comics growing in revenue, I kinda feel like a lot of that is just milking the same fan base for more and more. Stuff like variant covers and shipping a ton of titles twice a month, then the endless crossovers, I'm most sure any of that brings new fans in. I think I will always be hooked on comics... my kids, not so much, despite my best efforts.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.
#17
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
As far as comics growing in revenue, I kinda feel like a lot of that is just milking the same fan base for more and more. Stuff like variant covers and shipping a ton of titles twice a month, then the endless crossovers, I'm most sure any of that brings new fans in. I think I will always be hooked on comics... my kids, not so much, despite my best efforts.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.
#18
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
[QUOTE=
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.[/QUOTE]
i think Image and the independents have the better stories nowadays. Maybe I'm just older and no longer entertained by super hero comics anymore; but it seems the independents are more innovative story wise, while the Big 2 just focus on rehshing th esame storied with slight variations and multi-crossover titles. I don't think the independents cross over with other titles anywhere near the volume of Marvel and DC if at all.
Of course I'm talking mainly about Marvel/DC here, there are some truly great Image and independent books out there that may indeed be garnering new readers.[/QUOTE]
i think Image and the independents have the better stories nowadays. Maybe I'm just older and no longer entertained by super hero comics anymore; but it seems the independents are more innovative story wise, while the Big 2 just focus on rehshing th esame storied with slight variations and multi-crossover titles. I don't think the independents cross over with other titles anywhere near the volume of Marvel and DC if at all.
#19
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Oh yeah, the independents like Image and Dark Horse are crafting stories a thousand times better than the same ole stuff from DC and Marvel. The big two has a core audience that will buy their stuff no matter what, I'm one of them, but I'd be curious to see the numbers outside that core.
#20
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Oh Image and others are firing on all cylinders, and a major problem with Marvel and DC is that their best creators keep jumping ship to do creator owned stuff once they get their name out there.
I mean if you think about it, writing for the big 2, there are two main avenues. You take on one of the big names, usually because you're a big fan, knowing full well you'll never be able to enact any kind of lasting change on the character because both editorial and the fan base won't let you. At best you can craft a standalone story that endures, but even then you have to navigate through a land mine of crossovers and events that threaten to derail your story. Or you can take a more obscure character, do what you will, but risk early cancellation because the vast majority of the comic audience doesn't care about obscure characters and doesn't believe the book will last six months, so they don't buy it and self fulfill the prophecy.
Or you can say screw it and play in your own little sandbox, creating something like Invincible or East of West. Stuff where there's a singular vision throughout, and if someone wants to pick it up a usually linear way to do so.
Anyway sorry for veering way off topic. But I do feel like Marvel and DC sometimes treat a lot of their stuff like disposable commodities, stuff to be read once then probably never again. Which is fine when comics were cheap and disposable, but it's almost insane to spend so much money, and then time bagging and boarding and storing, not to mention all the money in printing and shipping and making inventory, for stuff that they just flood the market with to keep the names and IPs out there. Certainly not everything is like this and I'm sure all creators take pride in their work, but it strikes me as similar to making new FF movies.
I mean if you think about it, writing for the big 2, there are two main avenues. You take on one of the big names, usually because you're a big fan, knowing full well you'll never be able to enact any kind of lasting change on the character because both editorial and the fan base won't let you. At best you can craft a standalone story that endures, but even then you have to navigate through a land mine of crossovers and events that threaten to derail your story. Or you can take a more obscure character, do what you will, but risk early cancellation because the vast majority of the comic audience doesn't care about obscure characters and doesn't believe the book will last six months, so they don't buy it and self fulfill the prophecy.
Or you can say screw it and play in your own little sandbox, creating something like Invincible or East of West. Stuff where there's a singular vision throughout, and if someone wants to pick it up a usually linear way to do so.
Anyway sorry for veering way off topic. But I do feel like Marvel and DC sometimes treat a lot of their stuff like disposable commodities, stuff to be read once then probably never again. Which is fine when comics were cheap and disposable, but it's almost insane to spend so much money, and then time bagging and boarding and storing, not to mention all the money in printing and shipping and making inventory, for stuff that they just flood the market with to keep the names and IPs out there. Certainly not everything is like this and I'm sure all creators take pride in their work, but it strikes me as similar to making new FF movies.
#21
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Oh Image and others are firing on all cylinders, and a major problem with Marvel and DC is that their best creators keep jumping ship to do creator owned stuff once they get their name out there.
I mean if you think about it, writing for the big 2, there are two main avenues. You take on one of the big names, usually because you're a big fan, knowing full well you'll never be able to enact any kind of lasting change on the character because both editorial and the fan base won't let you. At best you can craft a standalone story that endures, but even then you have to navigate through a land mine of crossovers and events that threaten to derail your story. Or you can take a more obscure character, do what you will, but risk early cancellation because the vast majority of the comic audience doesn't care about obscure characters and doesn't believe the book will last six months, so they don't buy it and self fulfill the prophecy.
Or you can say screw it and play in your own little sandbox, creating something like Invincible or East of West. Stuff where there's a singular vision throughout, and if someone wants to pick it up a usually linear way to do so.
.
I mean if you think about it, writing for the big 2, there are two main avenues. You take on one of the big names, usually because you're a big fan, knowing full well you'll never be able to enact any kind of lasting change on the character because both editorial and the fan base won't let you. At best you can craft a standalone story that endures, but even then you have to navigate through a land mine of crossovers and events that threaten to derail your story. Or you can take a more obscure character, do what you will, but risk early cancellation because the vast majority of the comic audience doesn't care about obscure characters and doesn't believe the book will last six months, so they don't buy it and self fulfill the prophecy.
Or you can say screw it and play in your own little sandbox, creating something like Invincible or East of West. Stuff where there's a singular vision throughout, and if someone wants to pick it up a usually linear way to do so.
.
Marvel and DC can't even create any new characters anymore unless they are an offshoot of their already established characters. Spider Gwen is just an alternate version of Spiderman and Gwen Stacey. X23 is just a clear spinoff from Wolverine. The new Captain Marvel has been around for years as a civilian. Nothing new or unique will come out of their companies
#22
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
That said, for me, they never had a series that I'm aware of, that really go me hooked. But I've enjoyed Phonogram and Shinku.
Found this googling Image Comics. Descender sounds interesting.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/62...all-tastes.htm
#23
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
I like Image Comics overall. For the longest time they had better quality paper, the traditional 22 pages as opposed to 21/20, and were actually cheaper than Marvel and DC.
That said, for me, they never had a series that I'm aware of, that really go me hooked. But I've enjoyed Phonogram and Shinku.
Found this googling Image Comics. Descender sounds interesting.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/62...all-tastes.htm
That said, for me, they never had a series that I'm aware of, that really go me hooked. But I've enjoyed Phonogram and Shinku.
Found this googling Image Comics. Descender sounds interesting.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/62...all-tastes.htm
#24
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
Walking Dead is probably the most.well known one. I liked what ive read of Clone so far. Theyve definetly come a long way from where they started. They were basically an independent super hero company when they first came on the scene. Theyre much better now. Its hard to keep track of all their "imprint" studios they have.I guess Image is just now a publisher for other independent companies than it is an actual company in the way that Marvel or DC were.
#25
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Evolution of the Direct Market
They had always agreed that Image as a company wouldn't own any of the IPs, everything would be owned by individual creators, which at the time were the founders. Since they all came from a superhero background they all did superhero-ey books. When Kirkman came in with Walking Dead (and Invincible) and did well enough to be elevated to partner, they did a marked shift in what they published, including a shift to feature writers and to diversify their portfolio.
Though Astro City is under the Vertigo banner now since Wildstorm (and Lee) went to DC.
Though Astro City is under the Vertigo banner now since Wildstorm (and Lee) went to DC.
Last edited by fujishig; 08-01-17 at 09:09 AM.