Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Adult DVD Reviews | Video Game Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
Video Game Talk
HD Reviews
 



Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Video Game Talk

Video Game Talk The Place to talk about and trade Video & PC Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-02-09, 12:47 PM   #1
mrpayroll
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Glendale, next to L.A.
Posts: 18,486
Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21694

Quote:
January 2, 2009

Report: Sony's Cell Dev Cost $400 Million, Aided Microsoft Tech

The development of the PlayStation 3's much-discussed Cell chip cost Sony five years and $400 million dollars -- and all the while, Microsoft was snagging the best lessons from its development process for its own console's processor.

The Wall Street Journal reports on a new book by two leading figures in the Cell's design, David Shippy and Mickie Phipps.

In the book, 'The Race For A New Game Machine,' the two recall how they did double agent duty for both rival console manufacturers during the Cell's development.

Sony, Toshiba and IBM first partnered in 2001 to develop the Cell in time for the PS3's target launch. But during the same period, Microsoft approached IBM, who was doing the lion's share of the Cell engineering, and asked to have their own chip for the Xbox 360 built around the Cell's core.

The agreement between Sony, Toshiba and IBM didn't preclude the eventual sale of the Cell chip to other clients, but more importantly, there was nothing preventing IBM from selling components of the incomplete tech to Sony's direct competitor.

In the book, Shippy said he felt "contaminated" as he worked with Microsoft engineers on the technology, bringing them all of the fruits and none of the failures of the research and development that Sony was funding.

In other words, Microsoft and Sony may be on far more even footing than many ever suspected as far as internal processor, and while the Xbox 360 thrives, the PlayStation 3 continues to struggle -- hampered mainly by its pricing disadvantage credited in part to the high costs of the Cell.


POSTED: 05.40AM PST, 01/02/09 - Leigh Alexander
Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 12:48 PM   #2
mrpayroll
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Glendale, next to L.A.
Posts: 18,486
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21698

Quote:
January 2, 2009

Microsoft Among Companies Using PS3 Home For Virtual Meetings

While Sony's PlayStation Home has thus far met with a mixed reception among gamers, enterprise is apparently finding a use for it.

As part of a research project, some major companies are exploring Home as a site for virtual meetings, aiming to reduce travel costs and fuel emissions.


According to a report on finance website GAAPweb, companies like Ernst & Young and Merrill Lynch are giving Home meetings a try -- alongside Microsoft, too, even though it owns its own avatar-based, voice-enabled service in Xbox Live.

Plenty of the attention to the online worlds space thus far has focused on its possible business uses, since meeting, talking and collaborating in virtual environments via avatars is more interactive than teleconferences and less expensive -- to budgets and to environments -- than in-person meetings.

The project was commissioned by Advanced Workplace Associates, and is headed up by Portsmouth University's Dr. Nipan Manier and Manish Malik.

"Increasingly we are living in a world without borders where workers need to collaborate on a global scale," Advanced Workplace Associates managing director Andrew Mawson said.

"Audio and video-conferencing solutions have emerged, but the use of virtual worlds may offer the next evolution in overcoming the tyranny of distance - a more realistic and learning-enhanced environment."

POSTED: 04.41AM PST, 01/02/09 - Leigh Alexander
Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 12:53 PM   #3
Michael Corvin
DVD Talk Hero
 
Michael Corvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47,768
I read that first article somewhere else the other day. Pretty interesting. The slant is interesting too. Pinning the struggling PS3 on MS swiping the Cell. What happened to the high cost of BD being a factor? There were numerous speedbumps that Sony has had to deal with along the way. You can't pin the entire thing on IBM developing a similar chip for MS, that's just silly.
__________________

Now Playing
Infamous: SS | Almost Finished Zelda: A Link Between Worlds
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:06 PM   #4
superfro
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
superfro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 5,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corvin View Post
You can't pin the entire thing on IBM developing a similar chip for MS, that's just silly.
More silly than suggesting businesses are going to use Home to have virtual meetings?

"Johnson! Stop doing the robot this instant! This is serious business!"
__________________
SIGNED IN
Episode 107: XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Far Cry 3/Black Knight Sword/Pinball FX2: Zen Classics (MP3)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:09 PM   #5
Mikael79
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Mikael79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: IA Now, From MN
Posts: 4,049
I can just see it now - firms using Home for those meetings and there will always be that guy who will just run around doing the cabbage patch.

Dirty pool by Microsoft, if you ask me, even though I would be considered an Xbox fanboy.

I own a 360 and a Wii, and I've actually been doing alright without a PS3 thus far. I have a standalone Blu-ray player, and the only game I really wish I had is MGS4.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:12 PM   #6
chrisfelice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Aurora, IL
Posts: 767
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfro View Post
More silly than suggesting businesses are going to use Home to have virtual meetings?

"Johnson! Stop doing the robot this instant! This is serious business!"
I'd love to find one of these meetings and just walk up to the employee's while they are talking and just grind on them the whole time.
__________________
PS3 - Nxlr8 (Warhawk, Burnout Paradise, GTA4, LBP)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:13 PM   #7
superfro
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
superfro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 5,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisfelice View Post
I'd love to find one of these meetings and just walk up to the employee's while they are talking and just grind on them the whole time.
Why should it be different than real life eh?
__________________
SIGNED IN
Episode 107: XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Far Cry 3/Black Knight Sword/Pinball FX2: Zen Classics (MP3)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:17 PM   #8
JasonF
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The greater Chicagoland area
Posts: 33,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael79 View Post
Dirty pool by Microsoft, if you ask me, even though I would be considered an Xbox fanboy.
I would say stupidity on the part of Sony not to get a non-compete agreement that bans IBM from collaborating with other gaming platform developers.

Quote:
I own a 360 and a Wii, and I've actually been doing alright without a PS3 thus far. I have a standalone Blu-ray player, and the only game I really wish I had is MGS4.
I also have a 360 and a Wii, but no Blu-ray player. I'm thinking of getting one and I'm trying to decide if my desire to play Uncharted and Little Big Planet justify the extra cost of getting the PS3 instead of a stand-alone.
__________________
These are my DVDs
360 GamerTag: William T Bunny
PSN ID: William_T_Bunny
"JasonF can do no wrong!" -- Rockmjd23
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:20 PM   #9
Michael Corvin
DVD Talk Hero
 
Michael Corvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I also have a 360 and a Wii, but no Blu-ray player. I'm thinking of getting one and I'm trying to decide if my desire to play Uncharted and Little Big Planet justify the extra cost of getting the PS3 instead of a stand-alone.
That will definitely be a tight spot from this moment forward for them now that decent players can be found well below the cost of a PS3. That "best/cheapest BD player on the market" edge, is all but gone now.
__________________

Now Playing
Infamous: SS | Almost Finished Zelda: A Link Between Worlds
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:28 PM   #10
superfro
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
superfro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 5,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I also have a 360 and a Wii, but no Blu-ray player. I'm thinking of getting one and I'm trying to decide if my desire to play Uncharted and Little Big Planet justify the extra cost of getting the PS3 instead of a stand-alone.
I bought a Blu-ray player that also plays Little Big Planet. That's how I look at it.
__________________
SIGNED IN
Episode 107: XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Far Cry 3/Black Knight Sword/Pinball FX2: Zen Classics (MP3)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:37 PM   #11
JasonF
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The greater Chicagoland area
Posts: 33,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfro View Post
I bought a Blu-ray player that also plays Little Big Planet. That's how I look at it.
Sure, but a PS3 costs around $400 and you can get a decent stand-alone Blu-Ray for what? $250? So is it worth an extra $150 (plus the cost of the game) to be able to play Little Big Planet? I guess it depends how much I want to play Little Big Planet.

I mean, Uncharted looks great, and I absolutely love games like Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge. But I have Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge for my 360. Is the added value of having one more game in that genre -- even one that's considered to be one of the best games in the genre -- worth the extra cost of the PS3?
__________________
These are my DVDs
360 GamerTag: William T Bunny
PSN ID: William_T_Bunny
"JasonF can do no wrong!" -- Rockmjd23
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:41 PM   #12
superfro
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
superfro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 5,008
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
I mean, Uncharted looks great, and I absolutely love games like Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge. But I have Tomb Raider and Prince of Persia and Mirror's Edge for my 360. Is the added value of having one more game in that genre -- even one that's considered to be one of the best games in the genre -- worth the extra cost of the PS3?
Yeah..this is the same stuff I struggled with. That's all on you man. In the end the PS3 won out for me because it will have me completely covered in gaming for the foreseeable future. (As I also have a Wii and 360.) I wanted to play LBP mostly, but now I'm also able to check out a few other games that I wasn't before. I'm really wanting to play God of War 3, so that was a big factor for me too. Ultimately the 360 is still my machine of choice, and anything I want that is on both will definitely be coming home in 360 form.
__________________
SIGNED IN
Episode 107: XCOM: Enemy Unknown/Far Cry 3/Black Knight Sword/Pinball FX2: Zen Classics (MP3)
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 01:46 PM   #13
Mikael79
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Mikael79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: IA Now, From MN
Posts: 4,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
Sure, but a PS3 costs around $400 and you can get a decent stand-alone Blu-Ray for what? $250? So is it worth an extra $150 (plus the cost of the game) to be able to play Little Big Planet? I guess it depends how much I want to play Little Big Planet.
I know that I'll eventually buy a PS3 (I owned both previous Playstations), but I just can't justify the purchase right now. It will drop in price eventually, and I'll probably wait until it's down to about $250 before I pull the trigger. By that time, all of the good games will be very cheap, and maybe they can even have full backwards-compatibility included again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 05:15 PM   #14
JasonF
DVD Talk Hero
 
JasonF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The greater Chicagoland area
Posts: 33,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by superfro View Post
Yeah..this is the same stuff I struggled with. That's all on you man. In the end the PS3 won out for me because it will have me completely covered in gaming for the foreseeable future. (As I also have a Wii and 360.) I wanted to play LBP mostly, but now I'm also able to check out a few other games that I wasn't before. I'm really wanting to play God of War 3, so that was a big factor for me too. Ultimately the 360 is still my machine of choice, and anything I want that is on both will definitely be coming home in 360 form.
That's probably where I'll end up too. But first I'll procrastinate on upgrading to Blu-Ray for a few more months.
__________________
These are my DVDs
360 GamerTag: William T Bunny
PSN ID: William_T_Bunny
"JasonF can do no wrong!" -- Rockmjd23
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 06:38 PM   #15
Supermallet
Time Lord
 
Supermallet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Termite Terrace
Posts: 44,796
That doesn't surprise me about Microsoft, but it was silly of Sony not to throw in a non-compete clause. On the other hand, I think several factors hit the PS3 really hard, including their "You will buy this system and whatever price point we say and you'll thank us for it!" attitude, the poor showing of Blu-ray at the time, and the Nintendo Wii. The fact that, to date, the PS3 really only has two or three must-own exclusive titles is what has kept them from catching up.
__________________
"You already knew this, Mallet, but you're obviously a better man than I (expect this to be quoted in a sig). " -creekdipper
Watch me squawk on Twitter: @Supermallet
Check out my vinyl collection!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-09, 08:24 PM   #16
PopcornTreeCt
DVD Talk Hero
 
PopcornTreeCt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 25,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suprmallet View Post
That doesn't surprise me about Microsoft, but it was silly of Sony not to throw in a non-compete clause. On the other hand, I think several factors hit the PS3 really hard, including their "You will buy this system and whatever price point we say and you'll thank us for it!" attitude, the poor showing of Blu-ray at the time, and the Nintendo Wii. The fact that, to date, the PS3 really only has two or three must-own exclusive titles is what has kept them from catching up.
This is what bugs me the most. Like others, I bought the PS3 mostly as blu-ray player... but jeez, it's like they're not even trying with the games.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 11:46 AM   #17
mrpayroll
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Glendale, next to L.A.
Posts: 18,486
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=21820

Quote:
January 16, 2009

Xbox 360, PS3 Chip Co-Creator Talks Consoles' Relative Strengths

They're questions that have heated up fan forums since the launch of the current console generation -- which one is really more powerful, the Xbox 360 or the PlayStation 3? Is all that business about developers' failure to grasp the advanced Cell architecture accurate? And which machine has stronger graphics potential?

Former IBM technical architect David Shippy, who worked on both the PS3's Cell-specific PPU chip and Xbox 360's Xenon CPU talks to Gamasutra as part of an in-depth interview, and shares his thoughts on the relative pluses and minuses of each console's architecture.

Shippy has co-authored a somewhat controversial new book called 'The Race For A New Game Machine' about his work at IBM on Power architecture chips used in both systems.

A recent Wall Street Journal article on the book claimed that the IBM, Toshiba, and Sony co-funded Cell developments essentially paved the way for IBM's contract with Microsoft for the Xenon CPU -- a claim that Shippy discusses in the feature.

But Gamasutra also asked him about the relative power of the two systems -- since he worked so intimately on them, does he have an opinion on which was the more powerful?

"I'm going to have to answer with an 'it depends,'" laughs Shippy, after a pause. "Again, they're completely different models. So in the PS3, you've got this Cell chip which has massive parallel processing power, the PowerPC core, multiple SPU cores… it's got a GPU that is, in the model here, processing more in the Cell chip and less in the GPU. So that's one processing paradigm -- a heterogeneous paradigm."

"With the Xbox 360, you've got more of a traditional multi-core system, and you've got three PowerPC cores, each of them having dual threads -- so you've got six threads running there, at least in the CPU. Six threads in Xbox 360, and eight or nine threads in the PS3 -- but then you've got to factor in the GPU," Shippy explains. "The GPU is highly sophisticated in the Xbox 360."

"At the end of the day, when you put them all together, depending on the software, I think they're pretty equal, even though they're completely different processing models," he concludes.

What about the familiar refrain that the PS3's architecture is overcomplicated, challenging developers to program effectively? "The Cell architecture, from a software programming standpoint, is definitely a new paradigm," Shippy concedes.


"And I think what the game community would argue is that, since it is different, initially it is harder to program the Cell chip -- it's not a traditional multiprocessor environment," he says.

"The real hardcore coders would argue that, once you do understand it and can program to it, you absolutely get the most out of the hardware, and really write some fairly low-level code that's really high performance," he adds.

"I think some of the bigger game houses that will write more high-level code would really prefer an Xbox 360 -- right out of the chute, it's easier to write code for. I think you can really leverage the Cell hardware technology -- but it is harder to get your head around."

The full Gamasutra interview with Shippy is now available, including lots more details on the making of the two console hardware chips.

POSTED: 04.41AM PST, 01/16/09 - Staff, Leigh Alexander
Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 03:05 PM   #18
darkside
DVD Talk Legend
 
darkside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 19,833
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt View Post
This is what bugs me the most. Like others, I bought the PS3 mostly as blu-ray player... but jeez, it's like they're not even trying with the games.
See this is where I have to disagree a bit. I don't know how many great exclusives are enough, but Metal Gear Solid 4, Little Big Planet, MLB08 and Valkyria Chronicles were AAA exclusives. You also have some good B level exclusives like Buzz Quiz TV , Disgaea 3, Hot Shots Golf and Singstar. On PSN they released several gems including Wipeout HD, Pixel Junk Eden and Pixel Junk Monsters. This is just naming some of Sony's good exclusives and is leaving out the PS2 games like Persona 4 that could be played on some PS3s. They had many times the number of great exclusive games compared to the market leading Wii.

I think their issues are with the multiplatform games. This is were Microsoft is killing them. People are getting a 360 to play these because the online is better, more of their friends are playing them on 360 and still in 2008 games like Fallout 3 run like shit on PS3 compared to the 360 version. Multiplatform is what pushed me more and more to want a 360. I don't want to play the buggy version of a game and I want to play it on a console all my friends are playing on.

I think it has become clear that this gen is over for Sony. Xbox Live is the main reason in the US and the Wii is the main reason in Japan. They will not move out of third place so they better find a niche there or move on to PS4.
__________________
DVDAF/DVD Profiler/Games
Wii Code: 6061 0636 6661 8088
PSN & XBL: aagstn
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 03:16 PM   #19
tbird2340
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Ytown, Ohio
Posts: 5,088
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikael79 View Post
I know that I'll eventually buy a PS3 (I owned both previous Playstations), but I just can't justify the purchase right now. It will drop in price eventually, and I'll probably wait until it's down to about $250 before I pull the trigger. By that time, all of the good games will be very cheap, and maybe they can even have full backwards-compatibility included again.
I just bought a PS3 with a $150 MIR from Sony.. They have a deal with a $100 instant credit going on right now..

Linkage
__________________
Michael: When I was five, I imagined that there was such a thing as a unicorn. And this is before I even heard of one or seen one. I just drew a picture of a horse that could fly over rainbows and had a huge spike in its head. I was five, five years old... couldn't even talk yet.

Xbox Live! - Tbird2340
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 03:58 PM   #20
Michael Corvin
DVD Talk Hero
 
Michael Corvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 47,768
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
At the end of the day, when you put them all together, depending on the software, I think they're pretty equal, even though they're completely different processing models," he concludes.
Interesting to hear but funny by the same token. Funny considering how Sony talked up the PS3 as 10x as powerful as the 360. As we know that was during the endless stream of brilliant executive quotes so it's not surprising that it's no more powerful at all.
__________________

Now Playing
Infamous: SS | Almost Finished Zelda: A Link Between Worlds
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 05:05 PM   #21
The Bus
DVD Talk Godfather
 
The Bus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 52,339
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkside View Post
I think it has become clear that this gen is over for Sony. Xbox Live is the main reason in the US and the Wii is the main reason in Japan. They will not move out of third place so they better find a niche there or move on to PS4.
That, and its price.
__________________
Movies: 2002 / 03 / 04 / 05 / 06 / 07 / 08 / 09 / 10 / 11 / 12 / 13 / 2014

PSN: Chiwotweiler
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 05:15 PM   #22
mrpayroll
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Glendale, next to L.A.
Posts: 18,486
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corvin View Post
Interesting to hear but funny by the same token. Funny considering how Sony talked up the PS3 as 10x as powerful as the 360. As we know that was during the endless stream of brilliant executive quotes so it's not surprising that it's no more powerful at all.
And the "least shall inherit the Earth" or in this case the vastly underpowered Wii has won the console wars!

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 05:23 PM   #23
Mordred
DVD Talk Legend
 
Mordred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 11,770
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkside View Post
See this is where I have to disagree a bit. I don't know how many great exclusives are enough, but Metal Gear Solid 4, Little Big Planet, MLB08 and Valkyria Chronicles were AAA exclusives. You also have some good B level exclusives like Buzz Quiz TV , Disgaea 3, Hot Shots Golf and Singstar. On PSN they released several gems including Wipeout HD, Pixel Junk Eden and Pixel Junk Monsters. This is just naming some of Sony's good exclusives and is leaving out the PS2 games like Persona 4 that could be played on some PS3s. They had many times the number of great exclusive games compared to the market leading Wii.
Completely agree with this.

And you're right, XBOX live killed the PS3. Does a 4th gen system need to be first out of the gate with their online system to ensure success? Maybe so.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 06:48 PM   #24
lordwow
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 9,428
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

It doesn't help that most people who own both seem to buy multi-platform titles for the 360 due to Live/Achievements/Whatever
__________________
Her clam does taste like honey though. Now honey I LOVE. That alone makes her awesome in my book. - Slayer2005
Xbox Live:Wowous|Twitter|Join The 360Voice DVDTalk Group
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-09, 06:54 PM   #25
Tarantino
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 14,756
Re: Sony vs. Microsoft - A couple of interesting stories for the new year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrpayroll View Post
And the "least shall inherit the Earth" or in this case the vastly underpowered Wii has won the console wars!

Chris
I believe it's the meek will inherit the Earth.

= J
__________________

XBox Live - Kleeberg
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:32 PM.

Rules - DVD Talk - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.