Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Adult DVD Reviews | Video Game Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
Video Game Talk
HD Reviews
 



Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Video Game Talk

Video Game Talk The Place to talk about and trade Video & PC Games

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-30-03, 11:53 AM   #1
fujishig
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,475
What are the benefits of non progressive widescreen (16:9, anamorphic) gaming?

Hey guys,
I know there have been discussions in the past, and that there's a list of 16:9 compatible games in another forum. I recently bought the basic 27 inch Sony Wega, relegating my 7 year old TV (bought during my college days) to the bedroom. The S-video alone is a step up. It's got vertical squeeze to correctly play anamorphic video sources, but no progressive scan capability.

I have a Gamecube and a PS2. I've noticed that the Gamecube games are usually setup for widescreen in the game settings, but PS2 games read it from the console settings.

Is there a real benefit to playing games in non progressive widescreen mode? It seems like the added space on the sides is pretty minimal (and actually non existent for "cheating" widescreen games like Socom). I mean, I thought I'd be able to see my recievers on the line of scrimmage better in NFL 2K3, but it looks almost the same. And is the resolution that much better, especially on a smaller set? With DVDs I can tell the difference in anamorphic mode, but not so much with games.

Just trying to solicit thoughts from other gamers with a similar setup. You obviously lose screen size when you make a normal set go widescreen, and I was just wondering if it was worth it to you guys.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 12:09 PM   #2
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
I very much prefer gaming with my XBox on my 36" VVega (also non-HD) in 16x9 mode, whenever I have the option. For me, though, I just like how much crisper the image looks since the scanlines are drawn so much closer together.
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 12:09 PM   #3
PixyJunket
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 23,217
Unless you have a widescreen TV.. I'd just play them as is. Games are still made with 4:3 ratio in mind.. and 16:9 as an extra. I have the same TV as you, tried playing like this and it was useless.
__________________
Twitter, Wii U and Xbox 360: PixyJunket
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 01:28 PM   #4
jw2299
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Beautiful (sterile) Johnson Co., KS
Posts: 3,882
I did notice that I can see the whole field when I played Madden 2003 on PS2 when I played it in widescreen.
__________________
"See you space cowboy..."

"Can anyone tell I'm still shooting for someone's sig line?" - Seeker
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 01:36 PM   #5
mmconhea
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 4,954
I have a PS 4:3 TV, when I have the option, I always go for 4:3. Games are designed for 4:3 and by playing in 16x9 you lose detail. 16x9 mode only helps if the information is missing to begin with (like a letterbox movie). The animophic video ads extra info (Horizontal lines) and the TV condenses it. But with Video games, a verticle space is cut from the image to fit a wider view. You can notice the difference when models go off in the distance. 4:3 mode they are clearer. 16x9 mode, they aren't because verticle resolution is cut to fit the wide image in.
__________________
Waterfalls & Photography - About me
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 01:52 PM   #6
Liver&Onions
DVD Talk Legend
 
Liver&Onions's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Oregonzola
Posts: 13,828
Quote:
Originally posted by mmconhea
\ they aren't because verticle resolution is cut to fit the wide image in.
I think you have got resolution mixed up with what you can see. The resolution is bumped up in 16:9, but the draw distance might be lowered.
__________________
Twitter
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 01:55 PM   #7
sdcrym
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,663
Quote:
Originally posted by mmconhea
I have a PS 4:3 TV, when I have the option, I always go for 4:3. Games are designed for 4:3 and by playing in 16x9 you lose detail. 16x9 mode only helps if the information is missing to begin with (like a letterbox movie). The animophic video ads extra info (Horizontal lines) and the TV condenses it. But with Video games, a verticle space is cut from the image to fit a wider view. You can notice the difference when models go off in the distance. 4:3 mode they are clearer. 16x9 mode, they aren't because verticle resolution is cut to fit the wide image in.
I don't think it's appropriate to make blanket statements like "all games are made for 4:3, so 16:9 cuts the top and bottom off." I personally do not have a 16:9 television, but I have checked the 16:9 mode in a few games to see how it works, even though it was distorted horizontally. I specifically remember Eternal Darkness's pause/menu screen: the image had the same vertical size and dimension, but had additional information on the left and right widescreen area. It makes me wish I had a 16:9 TV.

Granted that may not be the case for all games, but I think when posting on this topic, it should be done on a game by game basis.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 03:22 PM   #8
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
Quote:
Originally posted by mmconhea
But with Video games, a verticle space is cut from the image to fit a wider view.
This is most assuredly not always the case, the "Dead or Alive" games on the XBox just to name two.

The manual for "The Getaway" for the PS2 reportedly says "The recommended option is 16x9 Widescreen", which I believe may be a first...
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 03:53 PM   #9
PixyJunket
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 23,217
Even if you get more information on 16x9 mode.. the games are still MADE with standard 4x3 in mind. It's really a personal choice.. it's more akin to open matte movies. I have yet to find a game where having it in 16x9 is more than just a "cool" factor.
__________________
Twitter, Wii U and Xbox 360: PixyJunket
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 04:02 PM   #10
fujishig
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,475
Yes, games like Eternal Darkness have a specific feature to allow widescreen play to allow additional information on the sides of the 4:3 normal viewing area. This is not done by chopping the top and bottom off of the game (though this was done in the previous generation, most notably Goldeneye).

In general, when the videogame is coded right, the "camera" in the game just shows more of the available field of vision, since unlike in a movie with a static camera, the whole 3D field is available for rendering. This is true for games like Madden and NFL 2K3. The problem I'm having is that you still can't see the whole field in widescreen mode, at least in 2K3.

Generally, if you play in widescreen or anamorphic mode on a regular TV, you won't get the bars at all... you'll get a widescreen image that seems stretched vertically. What the widescreen TV or WEGA will do is squish that and/or provide it's own black borders, so that there are more horizontal scan lines.

If the game "cheats" in widescreen mode, you'll get the same field of vision, but the game will slightly stretch it horizontally to fit the widescreen. This is done in SOCOM, where widescreen mode still looks decent, but no one gets a site advantage by using it.

Any other thoughts? Maybe someday I'll be able to get an HDTV and see the progressive image for myself...
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 04:36 PM   #11
sdcrym
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,663
Quote:
Originally posted by fujishig
Yes, games like Eternal Darkness have a specific feature to allow widescreen play to allow additional information on the sides of the 4:3 normal viewing area. This is not done by chopping the top and bottom off of the game (though this was done in the previous generation, most notably Goldeneye).
It's been a while since I've looked at Goldeneye, but can you be a little more specific? I know that there's the option setting where you can select the screen size as full, wide, or cinema. Then there's a separate aspect ratio option of normal/16:9. Are you saying that the 16:9 mode chops the top and bottom off? I would think that it does not, but rather that it adds more to the sides, similar to the option in Eternal Darkness. Like I said, though, I haven't looked at this in a while since my N64 is with my brother at my parents' house. Can someone who has Goldeneye nearby check it out?

Last edited by sdcrym; 01-30-03 at 04:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 05:46 PM   #12
Josh H
Retired
 
Join Date: May 1999
Posts: 27,449
I have a 27" Wega and I never use Wide Screen for games. As others said, games are designed in 4X3 and the widescreen mode is just a tacked on extra.

It looks a little crisper, but I really don't care about that. The game was made for 4x3, so to me playing it in widescreen is akin to watching a pan and scan movie (though not nearly as much of a "sin." )
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 06:24 PM   #13
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
I don't know if I'd completely liken 16x9 gaming vs. 4x3 gaming to be the same as open-matte vs. widescreen. With open-matte presentations, the composition's messed up because there's so much dead space on the sides. In the cases of games where there is additional real estate on the sides, that extra area is presumably not being wasted. That doesn't necessarily make it better, but it is somewhat of a different scenario.

As far as the crispness goes...I dunno, maybe the difference is more pronounced on a larger screen. It seems pretty substantial to me.
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 07:20 PM   #14
mmconhea
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 4,954
I knew I was going to get a bunch of flames for my post, but it's true. FOR 4:3 TV's you have a certain amount of resolution. if you run in 16x9 mode, you lose verticle resolution, meaning verticle lines are cut out to fit a wide space. You lose it because it fits in more of the surroundings from the horizontal. If your TV supports verticle line compression without loss of resolution, then you get a true 16x9 picture, but compared to the view in 4:3 mode, you aren't gaining anything, in fact you are losing some verticle resolution to fide the wide picture in.

As far as games being made for 4:3, yes, they are and then adapted for 16x9. Most of these games just compress the view horizontally and add enhanced menus or animophic video. It'd be insane for a developer to develop specifically for such a small percentage of the market.
__________________
Waterfalls & Photography - About me
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 08:38 PM   #15
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
Quote:
Originally posted by mmconhea
I knew I was going to get a bunch of flames for my post, but it's true.
Correcting inaccuracies != flames

Quote:
FOR 4:3 TV's you have a certain amount of resolution. if you run in 16x9 mode, you lose verticle resolution, meaning verticle lines are cut out to fit a wide space.
What?

Okay, here's an example.

I have my XBox set to play in 16x9 mode. I pop in Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball, which supports 16x9. It generates the following image while my VVega is set to 4x3:



I set my set to 16x9. Every scanline present while my set was in 4x3 mode is still there, but relegated to a ~1.78:1 area in the center of the screen.



Again, all of the scanlines are still there. Where is information being lost? Explain the loss of resolution to me.

BTW, "vertical resolution" refers to horizontal lines, not vertical lines.

Quote:
As far as games being made for 4:3, yes, they are and then adapted for 16x9. Most of these games just compress the view horizontally and add enhanced menus or animophic video. It'd be insane for a developer to develop specifically for such a small percentage of the market.
Perhaps that applies to some titles, maybe even a healthy percentage...but not all.
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 10:01 PM   #16
Trigger
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 23,459
Quote:
Originally posted by ctyner
What?

Okay, here's an example.

I have my XBox set to play in 16x9 mode. I pop in Panzer Dragoon Orta, which supports 16x9. It generates the following image while my VVega is set to 4x3:



I set my set to 16x9. Every scanline present while my set was in 4x3 mode is still there, but relegated to a ~1.78:1 area in the center of the screen.



Again, all of the scanlines are still there. Where is information being lost? Explain the loss of resolution to me.
I don't think he explained himself correctly, but he has somewhat of a point - even in your example... clearly, the image is "squashed" in the widescreen mode.

As for his comment about 4:3 TVs... that's wrong cuz my 4:3 TV has a widescreen mode that is equivalent to a hi-def widescreen TV.
__________________
theomnom.com
Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence? Sai Baba
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 10:05 PM   #17
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
Quote:
Originally posted by Trigger
I don't think he explained himself correctly, but he has somewhat of a point - even in your example... clearly, the image is "squashed" in the widescreen mode.
I didn't label the images clearly enough, I guess.

There are three possible scenarios for playing a 16x9 game on a 4x3 set.

1) TV 4x3, XBox 4x3
2) TV 4x3, XBox 16x9
3) TV 16x9, XBox 16x9

The first shot is of scenario 2. The second shot is of scenario 3.

The second image is 'squashed' compared to the first, but that's how 16x9 material is stored.

Think of it like:


TV 4x3, XBox 4x3


TV 4x3, XBox 16x9


TV 16x9, XBox 16x9

For scenario 1, I just center-cropped the widescreen image. Xtreme Volleyball is definitely wider during the matches, but I don't know about this particular shot. The comparison shots I saw on Neotaku had a little less headroom but were much wider on the sides. It'll do for this demonstration, I guess.

If I were less lazy, I'd drag my XBox into my bedroom and provide some real examples.

Edit: changed from PDO to DOAX to provide a better point of reference and to annoy sdcrym
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 10:21 PM   #18
sdcrym
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,663
Yeah, I'm never coming back to this thread again.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 10:24 PM   #19
Trigger
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 23,459
Quote:
Originally posted by sdcrym
Yeah, I'm never coming back to this thread again.
__________________
theomnom.com
Before you speak, ask yourself, is it kind, is it necessary, is it true, does it improve on the silence? Sai Baba
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-03, 11:13 PM   #20
lordzeppelin
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
lordzeppelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA GO PENS!
Posts: 4,946
All I'm saying is, NHL 2k3 and Panzer Orta for the Xbox look un fricken real in 16x9 on my 57" sony
__________________
With my stash, itís kinda hard to miss. Iím like the Scrooge McDuck of pr0n. - Kudama
XBOX Live GamerTag: Ronin317 ~~ PSN: Ronin_317 ~~ Lord Zeppelin's Sick DVD Buying Habit
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-03, 12:37 AM   #21
cubanx
DVD Talk Special Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,155
ctyner knows his hardware as he owns a TV that does the "squeeze". The 16x9 image may appear so-called "squished" in a screen shot compared to the 4x3 pic's but I assure you that it is not.

This is first hand knowledge as I own both a 65" 16x9 Toshiba and 50" 4x3 Toshiba that I use for games from all 3 consoles.
__________________
MY DVD COLLECTION:
Worship my Anime DVD Collection
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-03, 08:16 AM   #22
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
Quote:
Originally posted by cubanx
ctyner knows his hardware as he owns a TV that does the "squeeze".
Thanks! I can also spell "vertical" and "anamorphic", which I guess makes me an even more reliable source of information.
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-03, 01:13 AM   #23
lordzeppelin
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
lordzeppelin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Pittsburgh, PA GO PENS!
Posts: 4,946
I'm sitting here contemplating which cable pack to pick up to hook my xbox up...right now I'm using a Pelican S-video pack, with analog audio. I just picked up a used microsoft HD A/V pack (for $5!), but it's just the hub, no cords, so I'm playing with the idea of going composite or not...

here's my quandry - there are like 3 games that support progressive right now (that's an estimate) so I'm not sure it's in my best interests...BUT I want the DD5.1 benefits, so I'm thinking of grabbing a Monster Gamelink 300 and an optical cable. I want to use the Component video, BUT my Denon 3803 only has 2 component in's, and both are in use via my main DVD player and my Region free player...I'm not sure how many component inputs my Sony 57" widescreen has though...

Maybe I should use the damn HD pack I got cheap, get some longer Component cables, plug into the TV directly from the xbox instead of going through the Denon. Then go DD through the Denon. hmm...
__________________
With my stash, itís kinda hard to miss. Iím like the Scrooge McDuck of pr0n. - Kudama
XBOX Live GamerTag: Ronin317 ~~ PSN: Ronin_317 ~~ Lord Zeppelin's Sick DVD Buying Habit
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-03, 06:53 AM   #24
Adam Tyner
DVD Talk Reviewer/ Admin
 
Adam Tyner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Greenville, South Cackalack
Posts: 15,838
Quote:
Originally posted by lordzeppelin
here's my quandry - there are like 3 games that support progressive right now (that's an estimate)
If you mean there are only around 3 XBox games that support 480p, your estimate is way off. Almost every single XBox game supports 480p, though there are a handful of exceptions.

Quote:
BUT I want the DD5.1 benefits, so I'm thinking of grabbing a Monster Gamelink 300 and an optical cable.
The general consensus is that the Monster Gamelink cables are outrageously overpriced, and it may be worth noting that, XBox aside, every component of my HT from my DVD player to my subwoofer uses Monster cables. Also, the Monster Gamelink cables use a proprietary connection for 5.1, so you can't just use an optical cable you may have lying around.

Quote:
Maybe I should use the damn HD pack I got cheap, get some longer Component cables, plug into the TV directly from the xbox instead of going through the Denon. Then go DD through the Denon. hmm...
That sounds like the way to go.
__________________
"When you're in your twenties, you wonder what everyone's thinking of you. When you're in your thirties, you don't care what people think of you. And when you reach your forties, you find out no one was ever thinking of you in the first place."
-Patton Oswalt
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-03, 08:43 AM   #25
mmconhea
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Rochester, NY USA
Posts: 4,954
Quote:
Originally posted by ctyner
Correcting inaccuracies != flames



What?

Okay, here's an example.

I have my XBox set to play in 16x9 mode. I pop in Dead or Alive Xtreme Volleyball, which supports 16x9. It generates the following image while my VVega is set to 4x3:



I set my set to 16x9. Every scanline present while my set was in 4x3 mode is still there, but relegated to a ~1.78:1 area in the center of the screen.



Again, all of the scanlines are still there. Where is information being lost? Explain the loss of resolution to me.

BTW, "vertical resolution" refers to horizontal lines, not vertical lines.



Perhaps that applies to some titles, maybe even a healthy percentage...but not all.

hmm. you say i'm innacurate, but then you post images that prove my point. Thanks!
__________________
Waterfalls & Photography - About me
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:40 AM.

Rules - DVD Talk - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.