Strafe

Whoa, Hex flashbacks.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_(TV_series)

PhantomStranger

I have vague memories of that show as being a British knock-off of Buffy. Probably most notable for also starring the guy that would eventually become Klaus on The Vampire Diaries.

Thrush

My problem with the future stuff is aside from the attack of the 7. Theyre basically just killing time waiting for his next jump. His best friend is a bore and the scientist isn't so much a character as she is a cliche. There isnt much of anything to care about there.

Mabuse

This sucked. It's like they watched the film and then said, "let's take the parts we can use." And then they proceeded to take all the worst parts and inconsequential parts and leave behind all the brilliant parts.

The TV show takes only the parts of the show that are generic and in no way unique to the film: Time travel, a man from the future, a plague that destroys nearly all life on earth, and a militant animal rights group.

But the parts of the film that actually make the film a great film are left behind. They left out the two most fundamental things that sets 12 Monkeys apart from other, less brilliant time travel movies.

1. The underlying possibility that Cole is not a time traveler at all, but actually crazy and the virus, time travel, etc are his delusion. Why did the makers of the TV show even bother having the female lead still be a psychiatrist? The reason for that occupation was because the film hinged on mental illness. She might as well be a vet or something now.

2. The fundamental structural premise that the reason he's chosen to travel through time is his strong memory of a single moment from the past and then in the end we discover that the moment was the moment of his own death. This creates a circular structure to the whole narrative. Without this device (which started with Le Jetee) it simply shouldn't be called 12 Monkeys.

This is just a generic sci-fi soap opera about time travel that happened to borrow the character names from a popular movie.

Baron Of Hell

I don't recall saying I was speaking for the world. I'm not sure what in my statement made you think that.

BuddhaWake

She is a psychiatrist? I thought she was a microbiologist from the CDC. I must be watching a different show.

van der graaf

No, you just paid attention.

Mabuse

Point taken, but I stand by my opinion. Now I've only seen the first 3 episodes. I don't suppose they introduce any of my two essential missing ingredients down the line do they?

PhantomStranger

The last episode was very intriguing as it finally began to explore the motivations of the future people and filled in much of their backstory.

I agree with you this show co-opted the movie brand for its own purposes, though that was almost necessary for a show intended to be an ongoing concern. I like the movie and this show for different reasons. Television adaptations often have to make changes to work over many episodes.

Jay G.

Yeah, think about it the other way: If they had created a show involving a time traveler going back in time to stop a plaque and had not called it 12 Monkeys, everyone would've called it a ripoff of that movie's premise.

As for the movie's themes...

While the movie toyed with the idea early on that Cole could just be crazy, it had pretty solidly abandoned that by the end of the film, with a lot of evidence that he was really a time traveler by the final act of the film.

The locked circular causality of the film works for a movie, but not so much for an open-ended TV show. The show does have some circular causality in it, but it's already shown that the past can be changed.


As with PhantomStranger, I like the show for different reasons than the movie. I simply view it as a show with a similar basic premise, and it's gotten stronger as it's gone along (the first few episodes were somewhat underwhelming while still showing promise).

Jay G.

It'd be a bit of irony that one of the failed time travelers's bodies was the source of the virus in the night room.

It also seems possible that The Witness is a time traveler, since the army of the 12 Monkeys seem near one step ahead of Cole and his team.

TerryW

This show has turned into MUST SEE television for me. In no way should you be judging it by only 3 episodes. Every week it gets exponentially better than the previous. The latest, episode 10, is so good that when it ends I want the next one to begin immediately.

I've always been a huge fan of the film but like Fargo it's a completely different animal. Both have merit and are related mostly by title alone.

If you've only seen a few episodes I implore you to stick with it. You will NOT be disappointed. I put this 12 Monkeys series in the same league as Continuum and Fringe.

Jay G.

So the most recent episode hinted at what the red forest is. They show some plant leaves turning red after Cole splintered near the plant. in 2043, when Ramse comes across Jennifer Goines, she mentions that the hallucinogenic potion is made from the red leaves, which only appear "where he has been."

I'm thinking the "red forest" is the result of a big time jump or rift of some sort, that turns a forest, or part of a forest, red.

Thrush

I think its pretty obvious now that Cole's friend is.....

Kdogg

I really like the show but the way they are handling ways to fix the future are dumb. They could 1)send Cole to destroy the iceman or 2) send Cole back with the cure to 2015 or 3) send Cole back to 1960 with information on the stock market for the next four decades then buyout the evil firm. When you can travel back and forth in time with pinpoint accuracy and no time limit, then they should have saved the future in five minutes. Of course there would be no show. Time travel was more difficult and limited in the movie.

Jay G.

1) Is pretty much what they're trying to do, but they have limited information. They're working backwards from a future where the infrastructure's collapsed, so they're piecing together clues as they go.

2) This is something that is possible. Spearhead had a cure for at least the first mutation, and possibly the original. Sending the cure back should've been feasible, although the logistics of producing and distributing the cure likely would mean that thousands to millions would still die.

3) They couldn't go back to 1960 because they didn't have the power to do so. Hell, they didn't have to power for a 1987 jump until they got a new core. Also, they're being careful on altering history too much, lest they change something that, say, causes Project Splinter to never be developed, but the plague still happens. Then they'd be doubly screwed.

TerryW

Patient Zero in the Night Room was missing his left eye. When Cole came back to the alternate future, Ramse had a patch over his left eye. Since the source was found in 1985-86, I'm guessing Ramse will have to go way back in time at some point.

I don't think they can take stuff back with them through time. When Ramse was going, he dropped his weapon.

I just went back and re-watched all 10 episodes. It plays much better to binge watch this show. The timelines can be real confusing to keep up with week to week.

I noticed that Katrina Jones said she was 37 when the plague hit (in 2017) which means she was born in 1980, the same year Cassie said she was born. I'm not saying they're the same but they could be sisters. I'm thinking Cole and Cassie have a child in 2015 then she dies in 2017. He said he was born in Philadelphia then in foster care but he could've been looked after by Katrina. Perhaps at the house Cassie saw in her vision. She saw it standing and burned out. Maybe after Katrina started her obsession with finding a way to get her daughter (Hannah) back, Cole was put into foster care.

Every time Cole went back he failed. He's the witness. Cassie's been doing most of the work.

Jennifer, in 2043 said Ramse was her friend but not yet so either he gets sent to another time or she is a traveler and meets him in 1987.

Really incredible show. Very happy it's been picked up for a second season.

Jay G.

That was an alternate future Ramse though, and that alternate future didn't have enough power to do anymore than one trip, which Cole took.

They take their clothes back with them, I think. Cole also brought back the watch from the future in the first episode. So stuff can be taken back. I'm thinking Ramse dropped his weapon because of the pain of the time jump.

Let's say though that the vaccine itself couldn't be taken back; people need injections to survive, so splintering has some affect on organic matter. They could still take back information about a vaccine.

I'm thinking it's a bit of an "all or nothing" situation with the Splinter group. they want to stop the plague from happening at all, not just mitigate the effects.

Cassie and Jones are definitely not the same person; Jones still existed in the timeline where Cassie died. Also Jones didn't recognize Cole, and Cole didn't recognize her when they first met in 2041, so I think that precludes any sort of secret past between them.

That's a bit unfair. Cole has succeeded on a number of tasks, but they didn't stop the plague completely. He killed Leland Goines successfully. He got information on the Night Room on the trip to Cuba. He stopped the plague in Chechnya, delaying it by 2 years.

I thought she said that Ramse will be a good friend to Cole. So Ramse may redeem himself to Cole in some way in 1987. Remember in the alternate future, Cole said that Ramse was a good man, in any timeline.

Jennifer knows a bit more than she lets on in 2043, but it's unclear if it's knowledge she picked up before or after 2015. It's possible she runs into Cole/Ramse in 1987, but she'd be pretty young at that point. According to this wiki, she'd have been 2.
http://12-monkeys.wikia.com/wiki/Jennifer_Goines

Nth Power

I think the show has been getting better every week. I thought the first few were OK, but the last few have been pretty great.

I haven't really been keeping track if everything lines up continuity wise between the timelines, but find it highly entertaining regardless.

Jadzia

I finally caught up on the last few episodes. Although sometimes this show is confusing with the multiple time jumps, I am enjoying it.

One thing I continue to not understand, is given all the new information that Railly has found out about the plague since the beginning, why does her future recording still say Goines is responsible for everything? You would think she would try and give them more information to stop the virus now that she knows more details.

It's been awhile since I have watched the movie, but one thing I think is missing from the series is Cole's fascination with the 2015 world. For someone who lived in some post-apocalyptic hell, I'd love to see him react more to the differences in the world when he goes back in time.

Jay G.

The recording in the future in corrupted, there's parts missing. The idea that Goines was responsible for everything is the conclusion the team in the future came to based on what they were able to hear from the recording.

Tom Banjo

Really good episode last night. And Ramse has finally become an interesting character! I have a feeling we won't be seeing much more of 2043 this season. Between Cole getting closer to death with every jump, and the future people losing their "tether," it wouldn't surprise me if the time travel aspect is mostly over.

randian

The only problem is Ramse himself, who should have aged 25 years but didn't. Same goes for the old dude.

TerryW

He was just a kid when the plague happened. Say he was born in 2015 that would make him 28 in 2043. He goes back to 1987 and lives through at least another 25 years which would make him 53. The aged makeup on his face was subtle but very good and they put some grey in his hair. Perfectly acceptable.

The old man looked about 60 in 1995 and 80 in 2015.

Jay G.

I thought there was something in the episode where Olivia comments about Ramse not aging. It could be a side effect of time travel. Cole hasn't really spent enough time in the past for any age-slowing effects to be noticeable.