Game of Thrones -- "The Old Gods and the New" -- 5/06/12

[Thrush]

Originally Posted by superdeluxe

It must have took tremendous willpower on Jon's part to not give into the grinding heh.

The night is dark and full of terrors. Snow may yet get some.

Originally Posted by Mordred

I think people in these threads are too hard on Ned. Yes he's principled and moral, and yes he's a little naive, but he was trying to do the right thing. Threatening the Queen was stupid, but everything probably would've been okay if Robert hadn't died during his hunting trip. Ned didn't want the queen's kids to be killed like the Targaryon children were, which is a decent thing to do considering it's not their fault who their parents are. Blaming him for the civil war seems a little unfair just because he didn't understand what was happening behind the scenes.

Robert is certainly more to blame for the events happening now than Ned is.

By telling the Queen what he knew Ned put the lives of himself and his family in immediate danger. Cercei and Jaimey already killed the previous hand and tried to kill their son. Why would she have a problem killing Ned whom she didn't like to begin with? Look at Ned's position at the time. He was far from home, his personal bodyguard and most of his forces had been killed by Jaimey and he had a bad leg and could barely stand. In the sate he was in he wouldnt even be able to protect himself if he needed to. His main priority should have been the safety of himself and his family.

Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.

[Draven]

Originally Posted by abrg923

I'm not sure how you can possibly believe that one. ???

I'd take that to mean that as King, he obviously could have done more, paid more attention, not let things get so out of hand, etc. His job is to protect the people and the realm, and he failed pretty spectacularly at both.

[pinata242]

Originally Posted by Draven

I'd take that to mean that as King, he obviously could have done more, paid more attention, not let things get so out of hand, etc. His job is to protect the people and the realm, and he failed pretty spectacularly at both.

No, his mission statement was to "eat, drink, and whore my way to an early grave." I'd consider him a resounding success in that regard.

[Tommy Ceez]

Originally Posted by abrg923

As did Littlefinger, Tyrion, and Renly.

RHETORICAL SPECULATION, NOT LOOKING FOR BOOK CONFIRMATION: We still do not know what kind of "agreement" Varys has with the guy from Penthos (Ilyrio, or something like that, his name escapes me...the one who brokered the marage between Khal Drogo and Danerys Targaryen). Watching that scene again, it certainly appeared to me that Varys' "end-game" is seeing Westeros invaded and a Targaryen sitting on the Iron Throne. They haven't followed up in any way, but I think it's something important to remember about Varys.

Marrying Dany to a horse lord who is afraid of salt water is a bad plan to conquer Westeros. Marrying Vis. To Margery Tyrell and Dany to a Dornish prince would have been a far quicker way to bring the Tarygen dynasty back.

[Tommy Ceez]

Originally Posted by Thrush

Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.

Brandon Stark was raised to lead, Ned was raised to follow. I mean Robert's betrothed was kidnapped and Ned's FATHER and BROTHER were burned alive...yet it's Robert's rebellion? That should tell you something.

[dalbowski]

Robert could have raised "his" son better.

[Giantrobo]

The Stark males and their weakness for PUSSY/PRETTY FACES makes me SICK!!! Man up BITCHES!!! You're at WAR!!!

[Giantrobo]

^that said, I've been wanting to bang/lick Natalia Tena(Osha) since "about a boy".

[dhmac]

It's rather twisted to claim that the war is Ned's fault. Once he was double crossed, he was willing to confess to both save his daughters and prevent a war. The one person who deserves the most blame for the Civil War is Joffrey. By executing Ned, he absolutely guaranteed a war would happen.

(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)

[pinata242]

Rent fled before Ned's death too. Once Robert was gone, he knew he was short for life in King's Landing. I'm sure he would have marshalled Tyrell and Baratheon bannermen just the same. If Ned stayed alive, Robb and the north would have stayed put and Tywin Lannister would have made short work of Renly in the field.

[Thrush]

Originally Posted by dhmac

It's rather twisted to claim that the war is Ned's fault. Once he was double crossed, he was willing to confess to both save his daughters and prevent a war. The one person who deserves the most blame for the Civil War is Joffrey. By executing Ned, he absolutely guaranteed a war would happen.

(Now a war with Stannis may have been unavoidable given he already knew he was the true heir, but if that was the only war that happened, it would've been manageable by the realm.)

He was willing to confess to save his daughters, he wasn't concerned about anything else.

Once the Baratheons learned the truth, Stannis and Renly were going to lay claim to the throne no matter what. The Tyrells once again would have allied themselves with Renly. How "manageable" would that war have been? Especially when you cant count on the Starks or Tully's or Arryns to fight for Joffrey. Thats 5 major houses that are either against or wont fight for Joffrey.

[Josh-da-man]

Originally Posted by csant

I just want more Tyrion slapping Joff... lol. I love Joff facial expressions after getting slapped.

Yeah, he looks exactly like a snotty little prick who just got bitch-slapped by a dwarf.

[Mordred]

Originally Posted by abrg923

I'm not sure how you can possibly believe that one. ???

I know that Cersei helped Robert get himself killed, Ned didn't know that was happening obviously which was why his actions weren't complete idiocy.

Robert is FAR more to blame. Maybe if he'd actually fucked his wife, not spent so much time with whores or taken an interest in his "children" things wouldn't be so messed up. If he hadn't gotten so drunk on a hunting trip (scheduled at a time that the realm was in serious need) that he got himself killed everything would be different.

Originally Posted by Thrush

Ned was a good man but his flaws were more than naiveté. He was an inflexible hard-liner that refused to see reason or follow any path that didn't jibe with his "code". Little Finger gave him an out, Renly gave him an out. He turned his nose up at both of them. Had he done what either one told him, there would be no civil war, his family would still be together and he would still have his head.

Acting like having honor is a flaw is kind of silly. There would have been civil war if he'd crowned Renly because Stannis wouldn't have stood for it. Remember, he has a women who shoots shadow assassins out of her vagina... you think that wouldn't have happened with Renly on the Iron Throne? Also, now we're supposed to trust Littlefinger? That worked out so well for Ned with the City Guard. Why wouldn't you think Littlefinger would have stabbed him in the back with that as well? He hates Ned for stealing his Catelyn, he's not gonna turn the kingdom over to him.

[JasonF]

Originally Posted by Tommy Ceez

Brandon Stark was raised to lead, Ned was raised to follow. I mean Robert's betrothed was kidnapped and Ned's FATHER and BROTHER were burned alive...yet it's Robert's rebellion? That should tell you something.

It was Robert's Rebellion because Robert had the best claim to the throne after the Targaryens. This wasn't a case of throwing out the royal family in favor of some random usurper; this was throwing out the royal family and giving the throne to the next in line.

[NORML54601]

Damn my balls are heavy

[creekdipper]

Originally Posted by pinata242

Rent fled before Ned's death too.

Dancing & singing, no doubt.

[creekdipper]

Originally Posted by boogieman03

It cracks me up to see a direwolf named "Shaggy Dog".

This is what you get when you let your youngest kids name something.

It could have been worse. We might have been stuck with Count Dooku.

[creekdipper]

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man

Yeah, he looks exactly like a snotty little prick who just got bitch-slapped by a dwarf.

Some ho's gonna get it tonight.

[Thrush]

Originally Posted by Mordred

Acting like having honor is a flaw is kind of silly. There would have been civil war if he'd crowned Renly because Stannis wouldn't have stood for it. Remember, he has a women who shoots shadow assassins out of her vagina... you think that wouldn't have happened with Renly on the Iron Throne? Also, now we're supposed to trust Littlefinger? That worked out so well for Ned with the City Guard. Why wouldn't you think Littlefinger would have stabbed him in the back with that as well? He hates Ned for stealing his Catelyn, he's not gonna turn the kingdom over to him.

Having honor isn't a flaw. Holding honor above all else, including the safety and wellbeing of you and your family on the other hand is. Once he found out they pushed his little boy out of a window all bets should have been off.

If Renly had the crown Ned would never have sent Stannis that letter which informed him that he was the rightful king. Stannis would have no reason to rebel because he wouldn't know anything. For all anyone knows Robert could have ceded the crown to Renly on his deathbed. It was no secret that Robert favored Renly. He gave Renly the family lands and castle when by right those should have gone to Stannis.

If Ned had followed Littlefinger's plan, again he would never have sent Stannis that letter informing him that he was the rightful heir. As for Littlefinger, he doesn't stab people in the back just for shits and giggles. He knew Ned was a sinking ship and hopped onto a bigger boat, the same way Renly knew and abandoned him as well. Littlefinger's plan didnt really require Ned to "trust" Littlefinger to do anything, it just would have kept the status quo.

Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger. She was betrothed to Ned's older brother Brandon. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel and got his ass kicked. Cat pleaded with Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life which he did. After Brandon was killed she was Betrothed to Ned. Cat only ever saw Littlefinger as a brother nothing more.

[pinata242]

Originally Posted by creekdipper

Dancing & singing, no doubt.

Ha! Stupid iPhone auto-correct.

[Mordred]

Originally Posted by Thrush

Having honor isn't a flaw. Holding honor above all else, including the safety and wellbeing of you and your family on the other hand is. Once he found out they pushed his little boy out of a window all bets should have been off.

He should have sent his kids out of the city at that point, yes.

If Renly had the crown Ned would never have sent Stannis that letter which informed him that he was the rightful king. Stannis would have no reason to rebel because he wouldn't know anything. For all anyone knows Robert could have ceded the crown to Renly on his deathbed.

Except he'd need a declaration for that. They wouldn't be able to pass up the normal line of succession without a reason. If they don't bring the story of incest to light, the Lannisters are going to rebel and have a lot of people on their side. Again, what would have stopped Stannis from killing Renly in any case? He's ahead of Renly in the line of succession, heirs or not. I think it's also safe to assume that Mellisandre has been in Stannis' court, speaking in his ear since before he found out about the incest. She has plans for him that don't have anything to do with Ned Stark, plus the means to assassinate anyone just about anywhere. She would've used it once Robert died, no matter what.

If Ned had followed Littlefinger's plan, again he would never have sent Stannis that letter informing him that he was the rightful heir. As for Littlefinger, he doesn't stab people in the back just for shits and giggles. He knew Ned was a sinking ship and hopped onto a bigger boat, the same way Renly knew and abandoned him as well. Littlefinger's plan didnt really require Ned to "trust" Littlefinger to do anything, it just would have kept the status quo.

Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger. She was betrothed to Ned's older brother Brandon. Littlefinger challenged Brandon to a duel and got his ass kicked. Cat pleaded with Brandon to spare Littlefinger's life which he did. After Brandon was killed she was Betrothed to Ned. Cat only ever saw Littlefinger as a brother nothing more.

I don't remember exactly what Littlefingers plan was, but he didn't abandon a sinking ship. If he upholds his end of the bargain, everything is okay for Ned and the Starks because he controls the city. It's not like the plan failed because Ned was incompetent or too honorable. Whoever controls the city watch has the power and he gave that power to Cersei. Petyr stabbed him in the back because he could and because he's insanely jealous of Ned. It doesn't matter that Ned didn't steal Cat from Littlefinger and she doesn't want him in that way... it's what he thinks! He tried to kill Ned's brother in a duel for her. He betrayed Ned at the very first opportunity. I'm not sure he planned to all along, but he did as soon as he could. He's not a guy to be trusted as he freely admits.

The realm was in trouble before Ned ever stepped foot in Kings Landing because there were larger forces at work. All he did was hasten the fall.

[Ropes Pierre]

Originally Posted by smg669

I don't think it was tough for him. He was in his trailer smoking weed. Wearing a fitted cap.

I found it fascinating that he is Lily Allen's brother, and the "Alfie" of the song. The damned puppet in the video even looks like him.

[dhmac]

Originally Posted by Thrush

If Ned had followed Littlefinger's plan, again he would never have sent Stannis that letter informing him that he was the rightful heir.

I though Jon Arryn, not Ned, told Stannis about the royal children not being Robert's biological kids, which is a reason why Stannis, who was a member of the small council, was missing from King's Landing after Jon Arryn's death. (Or is that just from the books and not the series?)

[Tommy Ceez]

Originally Posted by dhmac

I though Jon Arryn, not Ned, told Stannis about the royal children not being Robert's biological kids, which is a reason why Stannis, who was a member of the small council, was missing from King's Landing after Jon Arryn's death. (Or is that just from the books and not the series?)

As far as I know, neither

[Tommy Ceez]