TwineTime

Yeah, I have to totally disagree with you on almost everything. Natalie played a great game. Sure, she was approached. Who cares? So right from the get-go, Russell deserves to win because he approached people? She accepted, which was smart, especially in those first few days. And then she observed and took Betsy's advice (Don't trust that guy...women's intuition), so she didn't make any waves because obviously Russell had sway and she was in an alliance that kept her safe.

Wasn't Russell also in that very alliance? He couldn't have made it to the end without their help either. Also, they could have voted him out at any moment, but maybe they recognized that he rubbed people the wrong way and kept him because of it. Every season, here on DVDTalk, I see people talking about how great it would be to drag a Coach/Jonny Fairplay type to the end because no one will vote for them. Why is it only a good strategy for JT/Stephen or Burton? Why wasn't it a good strategy for Natalie? Natalie, by the way, who also cultivated relationships along the way?

Also, I know a lot of you got caught up in Russell's antics over the course of the season and think he's "awesome" and "the best player ever!" but I do believe that there is truth to what Jaison was saying. A guy like Russell would probably be annoying to a good number of you in real life, and why should you have to reward him with a large sum of money if you don't care for him? Especially when the person next to him also played the game, in a far less obnoxious way, and was a good person whom you happen to get along with.

dino88

Because I (and I'm sure the majority here) don't agree with that statement about Natalie playing the game.

TwineTime

Once again, Joeboo, which is exactly why you would lose the game or vote for the loser as a jury member.

People need to stop ignoring how this game actually works and move past the fantasy of how they want it to work. It's never worked the way you want it to, so either quit watching or accept that there are other aspects to the game.

Also, I totally disagree about Russell. He totally strayed from what he said he was going to do, at several points during the game. The guy was too caught up in being the ultimate Survivor villain and didn't pay attention to the fact that the best villains in Survivor history never really win and when they do (Rich, Brian, etc.) it's because they're sitting next to socially awkward or annoying people like Kelly Wigglesworth and Clay Jordan. Russell brought along two of the nicer people on his tribe, when he should have been sitting next to Ben and possibly Liz (not sure how the others felt about her).

NiCK Crush

Aside from somewhat getting the ball rolling on that frantic vote-off of Erik, what else did Natalie actually do? And I mean, what choices did she make other then going along with Russell? What immunity idols did she win/find?

I'll give her credit for choosing to stick with Russell, and possibly Erik being voted off... but aside from that, I just don't see how she was that good of a player. And the Russell alliance was so early on that I think once she realized that he was a powerful player, she wisely chose to stick with him... but it's not like she made this great move from the get go without any doubts.

TwineTime

Well, if you think there's only one way to play the game (steamroller), then you're gonna run into some problems.

She played the game.

NiCK Crush

Nah, I disagree there. Russell wanted to win. He wanted to be the sole Survivor. His goal wasn't to be the meanest villian in show history. I mean, the guy had tears in his eyes the entire reunion. The guy wanted to be the winner.

TwineTime

The point is, these people didn't care for Russell. Viewers oftentimes forget they're watching an edited show. Watching Russell and living with Russell are two totally different things. There was also a reason why Sugar on Gabon got such a great edit when most of the people on her season didn't care for her.

Some people make great tv but are no picnic to live with. Russell's problem was that he was too caught up in his own legend to notice that not everyone was fawning over his game the way he was.

dino88

The majority of the viewers would disagree with you. If she had played such a great game and was such a great person, she would have at least been voted into the top 3 by the viewing public.

If the people that know Russell got screwed were to quit watching, there would be no season 21.

NiCK Crush

Right, I do understand that. But again, it's unfortunate that the jury base their decisions on that.

TwineTime

Did you see the first few episodes? He was obviously just as concerned with being remembered as being as asshole as he was being the sole Survivor. Why did he feel the need to make alliances with Dave and Brett before voting them off? Because he saw too many episodes of Survivor Amazon where Rob Cesternino played similarly. The difference is, Rob was also charismatic and a really good friend to most of the jury on his season, so he probably would have won.

mwbmis

Honestly, I felt like tonight Erik won Survivor b/c he essentially the picked the winner. If Erik hadn't gotten up and given that speech I think a lot of people probably would have begrudgingly voted for Russell. Erik threw a sledgehammer at him and changed the vote.

As for whether it was justified...I will say that Natalie said nothing at the tribal council that made me want to vote for her, but I can definitely see these people not liking Russell.

Was it a bitter vote...maybe for some of them, but I don't think so for Erik. I just don't think he valued the way Russell played the game. And I also think if he had decided to give an impassioned plea for Mick then Mick would have won. He rallied the votes for Natalie.

Also, it's worth noting in a lot of interviews I read the contestants gave Natalie a lot of credit for some of the small behind the scenes kind of things. Maybe those were things that didn't really play or TV or maybe it was post jury justification, but it was said.

Would I have voted for Russell, probably begrudgingly b/c he played the best game, but I wasn't out there.

As for Mick...can't stand her...but Shambo nailed it. Mick is feckless.

TwineTime

I learned a long time ago that the viewing public's perception of Survivor is totally skewed by the editing of the show and I almost never agree with their favorites. I mean, for God's sake, that bellowing camera hog Rupert won the Fan Favorite prize twice in a row. During China and Fans vs. Favorites, they gave the money to James despite terrible gameplay peppered with apple-biting babble.

dino88

But you would think that someone that played such a great game in your eyes, would have at least been mentioned in the top 3, no?

funstan

I think one of Russell's biggest mistake was not playing the immunity idol and saying he would keep it for a souvenir. I think that moment really disgusted a good portion of the jury and also his tribemates.

mwbmis

Also, as much crap as Russell gave everyone to the camera about whining and crying about the conditions, that little bitch had tears in his eyes during the whole reunion show so I'm calling him on it.

TwineTime

I'm not surprised she wasn't. The recent trend of Survivor focusing entire seasons on one contestant (Russell), coupled with the fact that the next biggest "character" was Shambo and finally the viewing public's short attention span (Brett) meant Natalie got the shaft.

Oh well, she still has the million and the title of Sole Survivor.

Seriously, I can't believe you guys aren't ripping on that guy for looking like someone just killed his cat and begging for a title. Talk about a sore loser.

Winky

I did not quite understand why Jaison asked the Final 3 to tell the jury who they really are. Then went to tell in the end that all of them are well off including Natalie despite being unemployed.

NiCK Crush

Huh? He had tears in his eyes because he was disappointed and upset that he didn't win. The two aren't related at all.

dino88

Oh well, I guess you'll spin it any way that works in Natalie's favor. I know he should have won and I'm sure I'm not alone. Hell, Jeff Probst basically said Russell should have won with his questioning and reactions. At least

NiCK Crush

Eh... yea, that very first episode with the water and socks. Sure. But those are the only two things they ever bring up because he really didn't do much of that after the first episode. Early on it was apart of his strategy. He dropped the whole evil stuff the second half of the series. He did some mean things, sure, but he would have rather won than be remembered as the biggest asshole in show history (which he wasn't anyway)

Patman

Russell's social game was horrible. His arrogance totally sabotaged his chances with the jury.

Mick is the male version of Amanda.

dino88

He didn't want the jury to cast their vote based on need.

NiCK Crush

I wouldn't say horrible. He was probably too cocky the last few days though, and he got far too specific with the moves he made while giving his opening statement to the jury.

mwbmis

How are they different? He made fun of people for not "maning up" and accepting what they signed up for. He signed up for a game that had a jury vote at the end, and it didn't go his way and then he started crying. That's exactly what he was ridiculing people about.

TwineTime

At least Patman gets it. Although I'm pretty sure he's happy Natalie won for *ahem* other reasons.

Russell let the chickens out of their coop during the second half of the game. He also wore the immunity idol around his neck and made fake alliances with people right before voting them off.

And yeah, I'm going to defend Natalie because she deserved to win and a lot of butthurt Russell fans are shitting all over her.

Also, I thought Jaison's question was great. One of the better jury contributions I've seen in a while. He could have just asked Russell what their bro-date would entail.