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Old 09-02-03, 09:07 PM   #1
DVDGUY1116
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Question about the Buffyverse(major spoilers!!!)

I'll start off by saying that there will be major spoilers in this thread as my question is a spoiler. If you are new to Buffy/Angel or have not seen every Buffy episode from the first 5 seasons, or first 2 seasons of Angel, please turn back as what you will read is a spoiler. I'll give time to leave the thread:

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OK. Read at your own risk from now on. My question concerns the 4 major vampires in the Buffyverse: Darla, Angel, Drusilla and Spike. I started watching season 2 again becasue I had not watched it in a while and in the season's 3rd episode, called The Harsh Light of Day, Spike and Drusilla make their 1st appearances. Towards the end of the episode Angel uses Zander as bait to see if he can fool Spike. Spike punches Angel in the face then goes on to explain how Angel was his Sire. We all know that a vampire's sire is the vamp that changes the person into a vamp. Skip ahead 3 seasons to the middle of season 5. There was a crossover episode that explained the history between Darla, Angel, Drusilla and Spike. In this episode it reveals that Drusilla sired Spike not Angel as was noted in Buffy season 2.

What I am wondering is if that contradiction is one of the Joss continunity lapses or if I didn't pick up on something. The only thing I can even come up with is that, eventhough Drusilla sired Spike, so did Angel as he sired Drusilla. It's not a major point but ever since I saw that episode recently it has been bugging me.
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Old 09-02-03, 09:56 PM   #2
das Monkey
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The real answer is that Joss can't keep track of numbers, ages, dates or order with any consistency and frequently screws up.

The cop-out answer is that the sire of your sire is also your sire.

While there are those who will insist that Angel sired Spike (likely because they've written stories around this belief), the most plausible lineage is as follows: The Master -> Darla -> Angelus -> Drusilla -> Spike

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Old 09-02-03, 10:11 PM   #3
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It's a plot inconsistency, but as you pointed out, Joss Whedon's explanation was that a grandsire was technically a sire as well. It's not the first mistake made on Buffy or Angel and it won't be the last.

One that always bugged me was how in Season 1 of Angel, Cordy mentioned that her birthday is in May, yet in the Season 3 episode "Birthday" which aired(and presumably took place) in January, the gang throws her a surprise party. At least Buffy's birthday episodes fell around the same time every year.
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Old 09-02-03, 10:32 PM   #4
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Regarding Angel being Spike's sire...

Look at this way, Dru may have turned Spike into a vampire, but Angel is probably the one who showed him the vampire ropes cuz Dru is stark raving nuts. As such, Spike would consider Angel to be his "parent" more than he would Dru.

Also, he's putting the lil' spike to Dru, and it would be kind of creepy to consider her to be a maternal figure. Of course, it's later revealed that Spike has sort of a oedipal thing, anyway, but still...
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Old 09-02-03, 10:39 PM   #5
DVDGUY1116
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All very solid answers! I figured it was more of a continuity lapse than anything though but do subscribe to the lineage that Das put out as: Master---Darla---Angelus---Drusilla---Spike. Thanks everyone!
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Old 09-02-03, 11:48 PM   #6
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Das is 100% correct in lineage. All those transformation have been shown on the show in flashbacks.

Spike calls Angel his sire, because sire can mean the family line too. No doubt, when School Hard was first written, it was probably just assumed Spike was transformed by Angel (why not?) but it's not really such an error in my eyes.

The Master is a very traditional vampire, he sired Darla to be part of his "family" when she sired Angel, the two decided to go off and have fun instead of being part of the "family" though they kept many of their traditional vampire ideals. The Master let them go off, because he knew they would eventually return to the fold. Angel sired Dru, and she sired Spike later on. Angel gained his soul, and Dru was stuck with Dru and Spike, who didn't follow her traditional ways as much (espically Spike... Dru is still fairly traditional... but she's not great company...) and Darla returned to The Master.

http://www.vampirology.bizhosting.com/

Not updated in a long time, but you'll find exact dates and more details there.

As for Angel showing Spike the ropes... well... in a way. He was leader of the group, and while the two didn't get along (again, traditionalism here, Spike didn't care for masquarding as human... and as a result, got half of London after the group) most of Spike's information would have come from Angel. Furthermore, Angel was a very very vicious vampire. Spike would admire that greatly, even if they two didn't get along. Hence, Angel would be like his "Yoda."

As for Buffy not being error free. Up until the last couple seasons (espically Angel last season), it pretty much was. They ran a super tight ship. Much better than something like Star Trek.
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Old 09-03-03, 02:14 AM   #7
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Another thing about Spike is that he was designed to be a disposable character, so a lot of thought probably wasn't given to his origins.

He was originally meant to die at the end of "What's My Line Part Two," and a revitalized Drusilla would have been there to hook with Angel after he lost his soul.

But ME liked Spike, so they gave him a last minute reprieve.

Which is why he spent the last half of the second season incapacitated. They didn't know what to do with him, and needed him to be unable to prevent Angel and Dru from getting "closer."
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Old 09-03-03, 05:21 AM   #8
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While the do keep the mythology fairly tight, the biggest continuity sore spot is with dates and ages of the vampires. I don't have all the facts, but I know Angel is given several ages in the first few seasons and none of them add up to the dates given in the flashbacks.

I think Spike's numbers are even worse than Angel's. For instance in "School Hard" Giles says he is "barely 200 years old", but in a later episode ("The Initiative") spike says he is 126. However, the flashback in "Fool for Love" shows him being vamped in 1880, or 120 years ago (since the episode aired in 2000). So weather he counts his human years or not, the numbers don't add up.
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Old 09-03-03, 01:09 PM   #9
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Re: Question about the Buffyverse(major spoilers!!!)

Quote:
Originally posted by DVDGUY1116
I started watching season 2 again becasue I had not watched it in a while and in the season's 3rd episode, called The Harsh Light of Day, Spike and Drusilla make their 1st appearances.

Sorry about this...

[Anal Buffy nitpick mode]Name of the ep is actually School Hard.[/Anal Buffy nitpick mode]

I know.

[Xander Harris]I'm sick, I need help.[/Xander Harris]

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Old 09-03-03, 01:17 PM   #10
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Were you a true anal nitpicker, you'd point out that he spelled your name with a "Z".

das
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Old 09-03-03, 02:21 PM   #11
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wmansir, yes, it's always amazed me how a TV show just can't keep dates on a character right. Not so much when they want to change it to make a different even happen in the past, but just changing it randomly. As for Spike's age... we could just say The Watcher's got it wrong (really easy to do actually) and Spike lied or was mistaken the second time. When you get that old, I'd imagine it not so easy. After a while, you'd say "Or was it 1889?... no no no.. it was after that, because I remember Sherlock Holmes had come back to life by now..."
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Old 09-03-03, 02:36 PM   #12
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Okay, I am also anal beyond words and yes anal-retentive has a hyphen. The Harsh Light of Day is a season four ep. School Hard is the correct one when we learn about Spike.

I find it does bug me with inconsistencies. Is it really that tough to pay attention to what you're doing?
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Old 09-03-03, 02:55 PM   #13
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Along these lines, in between Buffy seasons 2 and 3 Angel is supposedly trapped in a demon dimension for the equivalent of several hundred years. Yet when he returns to Sunnydale, he continues to refer to himself as 200 years old.

Now, perhaps Angel is trying to make a distinction between Earth time and the demon dimension time, but more likely the writers just forgot.
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Old 09-03-03, 05:05 PM   #14
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Being stuck in a hell dimension, there was probably no way for him to keep track of time, and he was likely insane for a goodly amount of his stay anyway.

Angel probably doesn't know how long he was in "hell," so he doesn't count that time and only goes by the current calendar.

It's also easier to explain that way. Instead of "Well, I'm about five hundred and fifty. Maybe. I was born around 1730, made into a vampire in 1755, got pulled into a hell dimension for what I think is probably about three centuries, but only a couple of months earth time, then I came back," it's easier to just say "250." 1750-2000.
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Old 09-03-03, 06:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by BizRodian


As for Buffy not being error free. Up until the last couple seasons (espically Angel last season), it pretty much was. They ran a super tight ship. Much better than something like Star Trek.
I have to disagree with this because on the commentaries they stated that they do make semi-frequent errors, and usually leave it to the people on the message boards to figure out a rational explanation for them. Which is exactly what we are doing for them now. Perhaps they should give us all a sag card.

I'm guessing the reason for all the discontinuities in details is because they also hire freelance writers who might not watch every episode and therefore don't know or just don't care enough to find out the details. It's amazing when listening to the commentaries some of the show details the writers and/or directors forget when talking about certain episodes.
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Old 09-03-03, 07:00 PM   #16
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No, I still contest that for the type of show they did, the first few years of the show were very well done in terms of lack of errors in the show's mythology. For a show that made up a lot of things as it went along, they tried to make many explanations and didn't cross stuff they've established as fact before. I'll agree the later seasons mucked a lot of stuff up... (those mostly related to a character's history though.)

Quote:
Along these lines, in between Buffy seasons 2 and 3 Angel is supposedly trapped in a demon dimension for the equivalent of several hundred years. Yet when he returns to Sunnydale, he continues to refer to himself as 200 years old.

Now, perhaps Angel is trying to make a distinction between Earth time and the demon dimension time, but more likely the writers just forgot.
I don't know... (Up until season 6 spoilers)
Spoiler:
does Buffy consider herself "older" for the few days she spent in a hell dimension... or younger for the few months she spent...


Cronology is a man made system, so it's really never bothered me. He lives in "present time." He was born 250 years ago or whatever, and therefore that's his "age."
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