American Idol - 4/22/2003

[big whoppa]

This has become a Diane Warren bashing thread. Folks, please tell me what contemporary songwriter (90's and above) will leave a lasting legacy. I'll take a DW song anyday over the crap that is played on any radio station these days.

[Iron_Giant]

Originally posted by big whoppa
I think they do. That's what they do on the WWF shows. You'd look like an idiot bringing a sign you made into the show.

When they hold up the signs, it reminds me of the old "Let's Make a Deal" days.

[big whoppa]

OK. Here's the question. Who won't pick Josh, Kim. L, and Treynce to be in the bottom 3 next week?

That's without seeing the competition Tuesday. It's a given that Clay and Rubin have a tremendous following and however well or terrible they do won't make any difference.

[RichardW]

My guess is they'll do a bottom 2 since they have so few contestants left.

[mcbg1]

Good news or bad news ( depending on your tastes ) :

Justin Guarini will be performing a song off his new album on this week's result show.

I'm not a big fan of his but I give his album a chance I guess...

[movieking]

That's bad news. Very, very bad news.

[big whoppa]

I didn't care for his voice then and I doubt that his performance is going to change that.

[RichardW]

The return of Sideshow Bob. No wonder this week's results show is an hour.

[ChefWinduAZ]

Originally posted by big whoppa
I think they do. That's what they do on the WWF shows. You'd look like an idiot bringing a sign you made into the show.

I have been to a Live WWF/WWE event and those signs are made by the fans. As for those signs at American Idol tapings, they look fake because look at the people who are holding them. What is written on the signs does not seem to match with the person who is holding them.

[Alyoshka]

Originally posted by big whoppa
This has become a Diane Warren bashing thread. Folks, please tell me what contemporary songwriter (90's and above) will leave a lasting legacy. I'll take a DW song anyday over the crap that is played on any radio station these days.

Tom Waits, Wilco...

[Jadzia]

Originally posted by big whoppa
I'll take a DW song anyday over the crap that is played on any radio station these days.

Diane Warren songs don't get played on the radio?

[TheAllPurposeNothing]

Ratings, radio play or record sales aren't reasons to give someone respect. Hell...at that rate, Sherwood Shwartz is one TVs all-time greats, along with Sid & Marty Kroft.

Warren is a hack, sure and simple. As for her "hits," I really don't think its got anything to do with her writing. I'm more likely to chalk those successes up to production and vocals. Sort of like that old SCTV gag with John Houseman reading the Melonville phone book live on stage. But I guess time will tell here. If even one of her songs has the lasting power of a "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" or "Tracks of My Tears," I'd be amazed. But then again, for some reason, that awful "Last Kiss" song keeps getting revisited...

On another note:

Given that Sedaka is this week's guest, here is my guess as to what each of the contestant's will sing.

Clay - Calendar Girl
Josh - Bad Blood
Kim - Breaking Up is Hard to Do (slow version)
Trenyce - Love Will Keep Us Together
Ruben - Laughter in the Rain

To be honest, the "hit" choices are somewhat limited so these are pretty safe bets.

A less safe bet - if Josh can take "Bad Blood" and make it into a country tune (which shouldn't be too hard), he will walk away with this week. Doesn't take vocal prowess as much as attitude. Expect Kim in the bottom ranks in his place. However, if he tries another style jump, expect him in the bottom. Either way, Trenyce gets this week's boot.

Just can't wait to hear each contestant BS about how Sedaka has been such a strong influence on them.

[big whoppa]

Originally posted by Jadzia
Diane Warren songs don't get played on the radio?

Not as much as they used to.

Although Sedaka will guest host, they might go with 70's songs instead. His songs, while great at the time, haven't aged all that well.

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by TheAllPurposeNothing
Ratings, radio play or record sales aren't reasons to give someone respect. Hell...at that rate, Sherwood Shwartz is one TVs all-time greats, along with Sid & Marty Kroft.

Warren is a hack, sure and simple. As for her "hits," I really don't think its got anything to do with her writing. I'm more likely to chalk those successes up to production and vocals. Sort of like that old SCTV gag with John Houseman reading the Melonville phone book live on stage. But I guess time will tell here. If even one of her songs has the lasting power of a "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow?" or "Tracks of My Tears," I'd be amazed. But then again, for some reason, that awful "Last Kiss" song keeps getting revisited...

::Sigh::: Some people will never cop to it no matter how much fact they are presented with. I guess record sales and chart success is not a true scale to use to determine career success.

As I've said before, if you don't like her work - fine. But please show me recent songs (during Diane's tenure) that have as much, if not more, staying power than any other songs. It's also a stretch to compare songs from the '60s to songs from the '90s...different styles, different eras (I wouldn't even consider the songs you suggested as all that "classic" to begin with). I'm not interested in probably 95% of the songs that she's written (I tune most of them out when them come on the radio), but give her her due respect as someone that's successful in the business and obviously knows what she's doing.

[TheAllPurposeNothing]

Originally posted by SleepyW
::Sigh::: Some people will never cop to it no matter how much fact they are presented with. I guess record sales and chart success is not a true scale to use to determine career success.

It's not a question of "copping" to anything. M&M/Mars may sell millions of Snickers bars but that doesn't make them nutritious, fulfilling or memorable to the taste buds. They satisfy for a short time with a quick burst of calories. Too many and all you get is fat. In the same light, sure Warren's successful. But it doesn't make her any less of a hack. If American Idol showed anything, it was how boring and similar all of it was played back to back. I'd argue that if it weren't for the narrowcasting of Adult contemporary, none of her songs would ever be replayed outside of their time on the charts. She may be perfect for AC, but then again, so is Air Supply and Anne Murray. Her work may satisfy the soccer moms for a short time but it is quickly digested and forgotten.

And again, I question whether it is her songs that truly sell the records to begin with. Repetition and production is what sells singles..not quality. Its whatever the record companies can force/buy onto playlists around the country. How else can you pinpoint the success of a song like "From a Distance."

As I've said before, if you don't like her work - fine. But please show me recent songs (during Diane's tenure) that have as much, if not more, staying power than any other songs. It's also a stretch to compare songs from the '60s to songs from the '90s...different styles, different eras (I wouldn't even consider the songs you suggested as all that "classic" to begin with). I'm not interested in probably 95% of the songs that she's written (I tune most of them out when them come on the radio), but give her her due respect as someone that's successful in the business and obviously knows what she's doing.

The two songs mentioned I chose due to thematic similarities to Warren's work. And I'd argue that they are "classic." Both distinct, easily recognizable, easily hummable, and more likely than not, you would even know most of the lyrics to each. Both have a good degree of depth lacking from Warren's work. I even somewhat agree with Dylan that Smokey Robinson was one of America's greatest poets at the time and Carole King was no slouch either. "Tracks of My Tears" has been a hit in three decades (for the Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, Johnny Rivers, and Go West), plus has been covered by countless others. "Will You Love Me Tomorrow?" has charted by the Shirelles and Carole King, and has been covered by everyone from the Four Seasons to Ben E. King to Bryan Ferry to Laura Brannigan.

To be honest, I"m just not sure that many current hits really do have any form of longevity to them. Maybe "Don't Know Why" or "Baby One More Time" (one listen to Fountain of Wayne's cover shows there is much more involved in that song than a couple of dance beats).

I think that it comes down to what J.D. Considine had said of the best song category in the Grammy's. The sign of a great song is how adaptable it is to genre, time and artist. A great song is not the same thing, however, as a great record, which is definitely tied to an artist, producer and time. That is why two separate categories exist.

Not sure Warren's writing could fall into either category.

[das Monkey]

Since this thread is irrevocably off track anyway, may as well keep going ...

I finally got around to listening to the new Meat Loaf album (quit laughing ... quit ... QUIT ... done? ... ok ... now? ... ok ...) which will be in the US in August I think. Anyway, it's a jumbled group of songs from various artists, and of course, the great Diane Warren has graced this album with her presence. I intentionally listened to the album blind without any knowledge of which song was written by whom (except for the main single, which I couldn't avoid knowledge of). It's actually a pretty decent album -- not great, but decent -- and I was struck with how particularly vapid and hollow one of the songs was. It's safe to say this song sucks and is by far the worst on the album.

The bitter side of me was just hoping that it would be written by our favorite visionary, so I hit the Internet, looked it up, and sure enough, the worst song on the album was written by none other than mankind's finest artist ... Diane Warren. While predictable, it was somewhat satisfying to note that she's still got it!

das

[Groucho]

OMG! Diane Warren!

[big whoppa]

Originally posted by das Monkey
Since this thread is irrevocably off track anyway, may as well keep going ...

I finally got around to listening to the new Meat Loaf album (quit laughing ... quit ... QUIT ... done? ... ok ... now? ... ok ...) which will be in the US in August I think. Anyway, it's a jumbled group of songs from various artists, and of course, the great Diane Warren has graced this album with her presence. I intentionally listened to the album blind without any knowledge of which song was written by whom (except for the main single, which I couldn't avoid knowledge of). It's actually a pretty decent album -- not great, but decent -- and I was struck with how particularly vapid and hollow one of the songs was. It's safe to say this song sucks and is by far the worst on the album.

The bitter side of me was just hoping that it would be written by our favorite visionary, so I hit the Internet, looked it up, and sure enough, the worst song on the album was written by none other than mankind's finest artist ... Diane Warren. While predictable, it was somewhat satisfying to note that she's still got it!

das

Hmmm....What does that say about Meatloaf?

[das Monkey]

• Quoth big whoppa •

---

Hmmm....What does that say about Meatloaf?

---

Um ... that he's old?

das

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by das Monkey
...sure enough, the worst song on the album was written by none other than mankind's finest artist ... Diane Warren

Well, that has completely swayed me. Your vision and opinion of the Meatloaf album and that one song has convinced me that Diane Warren is, indeed, a hack.

What rivetting arguments from our gallery on this one. Comparing Diane Warren's work to a Snickers candy bar not being nutritious. Ay ay ay...

[das Monkey]

For someone who demands that everyone respect each other's opinions, mocking mine isn't a particularly good example to set. I've not once criticized your right to think highly of Diane Warren, yet you continually condescend and mock those of us who do not. You accuse us of being holier-than-thou?

das

[Groucho]

Originally posted by SleepyW
Ay ay ay...

Bumblebee Man?

[Booth]

FYI - Here's how our poll fared last week:

Clay Aiken	19	35%
Ruben Studdard	17	31%
Kimberly Locke	14	25%
Carmen Rasmusen	2	4%
Trenyce	2	4%
Joshua Gracin	1	2%

Although it wasn't really hard to do, we correctly picked the bottom three (once again). Unless there is some earth-shattering change in performances tonight, we can expect Trenyce and Joshua to be in the bottom two tomorrow night.

As for whether they will announce a bottom two or a bottom three tomorrow, no one knows. If its the bottom three then #3 position is up for grabs.

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by das Monkey
For someone who demands that everyone respect each other's opinions, mocking mine isn't a particularly good example to set. I've not once criticized your right to think highly of Diane Warren, yet you continually condescend and mock those of us who do not. You accuse us of being holier-than-thou?

das

Das -- I've never mocked anyone's personal opinion of her work. I've said all along that I don't think any less of anyone for not liking her work (in fact, I also exclaimed that I, too, don't care for probably 95% of her songs)....I'm simply mocking the lack of respect she's gotten despite her track record and continued success in her line of work. Whether any of us like her work or not has never been the issue (it's never been my issue). Hell -- we'd NEVER all agree on that.

As another example, I think Madonna is a complete and utter vocal and talent fraud (save for very few efforts she's put out over the years), but I respect her for knowing the market and adapting to it in order to stay in the limelight.

Saying "I think her songs suck" is one thing...saying she's a hack and chart success and records sold means nothing to me is a ridiculous and unfounded argument when the pop industry is BASED on that to determine success. If what she did was so easy, everyone would be doing it. But some folks here just refuse to acknowledge that she's good at what she does, like it or not, and that she's been very successful at finding a niche for her songs. She's been around for a long time (in industry standards) and if she was a big a hack as some here claim, why is she still around? Name anyone else in ANY business that is a complete hack, yet manages to be continually successful for 10-20 years and has people beating down their door to work with them.

While text can easily be misinterpretted as verbal attacks and deroggatory comentary, I certainly haven't intended anything I've said to be such. Granted, I use a lot of sarcasm, but only to attempt to make a point. I've simply tried to have a fact-based debate about this, and I feel too many are trying to mesh their personal opinions about the subject with factual content...and that is what has prompted my disagreements.

[TheAllPurposeNothing]

Originally posted by SleepyW
As another example, I think Madonna is a complete and utter vocal and talent fraud (save for very few efforts she's put out over the years), but I respect her for knowing the market and adapting to it in order to stay in the limelight.

While I'm not a big fan of Madonna (she has a few decent singles and I thought the "Like a Prayer" album was quite good), I wouldn't call her a "talent fraud." She puts on a decent stage show. Is a more than passable writer and producer. While I don't doubt that she is great at marketing herself, I don't think anyone ever gives her credit for how much she actually contributes to each one of her records. And given the choice between "Express Yourself" or "Like a Prayer" and anything from the Warren cannon, I'd definitely pick the Madonna tunes.

Saying "I think her songs suck" is one thing...saying she's a hack and chart success and records sold means nothing to me is a ridiculous and unfounded argument when the pop industry is BASED on that to determine success.

Depends on how you define success. If success is only based on Billboard record charts, then yes, Warren is a success. But for a number of performers, that is not an issue. The Grateful Dead built quite a following without blowing away the record charts. Richard Thompson has been performing and recording for 35 years and has never had a hit (except for possibly the college radio play of "Feel So Good (I"m Gonna Break Somebody's Heart Tonight)." The Barenaked Ladies used to joke about how many people would show up at their concerts and know every line to every song, and yet the album sales in the US were almost nil (this is pre-"Old Apartment"). Big Star is one the single most influential bands of the past 30 years, yet the Replacement's song about Alex Chilton is better known than any single song they wrote or produced.

I'd say a large number of recording artists, songwriters, producers, session players, etc. just do what they do because they love the music and are driven to do it. Record charts be damned. It seems to me that record companies and music retailers are often more worried about sales as the measure of success than the people creating the music.

Webster's defines "hack" as "a writer who aims solely for commercial success." Given that Warren has stated that she's not sure if she ever has been deeply in love, what other demon could be driving her to keep writing these incessant songs? Why stick to the same damn formula song after song after song? The most likely reason...because that is what will chart.

If what she did was so easy, everyone would be doing it. But some folks here just refuse to acknowledge that she's good at what she does, like it or not, and that she's been very successful at finding a niche for her songs. She's been around for a long time (in industry standards) and if she was a big a hack as some here claim, why is she still around?

The fact is that writing is easy. Anyone can write a stupid song if they want. I've written millions in my head. The issues lie more in technical know-how and perseverence. For years, McCartney knew how to play what he was writing but didn't actually know how to write it down. But he is an exception. If you plan on making a living strictly as a songwriter, transposing what you create to the sheet is a necessity. Just taking a few basic music theory courses will teach any wannabe songwriter what they need to know about chords, chord progressions, etc.

More important is perseverence. Warren says she struggled with publishers and producers for ten years before she could make a living as a songwriter. Most people would have given up much sooner. For that simple fact, I give her credit. But it doesn't make her a good songwriter. Financial success isn't the magic ingredient that makes cr*p taste like chocolate.

Name anyone else in ANY business that is a complete hack, yet manages to be continually successful for 10-20 years and has people beating down their door to work with them.

Michael Bay
George W. Bush
Bill Gates

While text can easily be misinterpretted as verbal attacks and deroggatory comentary, I certainly haven't intended anything I've said to be such. Granted, I use a lot of sarcasm, but only to attempt to make a point. I've simply tried to have a fact-based debate about this, and I feel too many are trying to mesh their personal opinions about the subject with factual content...and that is what has prompted my disagreements.

And I respect that. But I don't think this is an argument based on fact. Its based on determining what defines "success." My basic argument is that Warren really offers nothing distinct or special in her work. She is an artistic failure. While she may be a financial success, it is impossible to determine if that is based on skill, luck, or just pure determination.

The way I see it...if a record company wanted Celene Dion to have a hit with a love song by Ray Romano, they could afford to push it on VH1 and over Clear Channel and over the end credits of whatever dismal Cameron Diaz movie is out next week, and they could force a hit. Its relatively easy to force something down people's throats and convince them that they like it. Especially when that's the only item you're offering on the menu.