American Idol - 4/22/2003

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by Jadzia
I didn't say I was "unfamiliar" with her; rather, I said when they listing the names of her songs from 10 years ago I could not remember or recognize many of them by name. They are just forgettable songs: on the charts one week, forgotten the next. Her songs just are not very enduring.

Not very enduring? Hmmmm...try turning on any pop/AC station and go more than an hour or 2 without hearing one of Diane's songs - new OR old: "Love Will Lead You Back," "Un-break My Heart," "I Don't Want To Miss a Thing," "If I Could Turn Back Time," "Can't Fight the Moonlight" (that song was on the charts for over a year), seemingly half of Celine Dion's songs....I couldn't even begin to type them all that get played on a daily basis. Hardly "forgotten" and far from not being "enduring," as you put it.

Feel free to check out www.dianewarren.com if you want a more comprehensive list. I don't think you realize the size of her collection of work. I'm not trying to get extremely argumentative about her (as I said, I don't LOVE her work), but I just don't think you know what you're talking about on this topic.

It would be like asking someone like Roger Ebert to recall the plot of a Steven Seagal movie from 10 years ago.

Your comparing Diane Warren and pop music to Steven Seagal and movies? Wow...you really are out of it. I'd replace Seagal with someone like Denzil Washington or Harrison Ford (that's closer to the equivalent in their respective industries).

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by RichardW
Sorry, but Carmen's "Are you f**king kidding me?" slack-jawed look when Randy was criticizing her performance on Tuesday was far from professional.

I think she was reacting to HOW Randy said it--seeing as how he rarely unloads on someone like that. Try putting yourself in their place. Every single contestant has had surprised looks at criticism, but you have to admit Randy went further across the criticism line than he needed to with his comment. I had the same look on my face, too. You would've too. I agreed that she wasn't going to win, but he didn't need to say it like that.

If it were you on stage, you probably would've cussed him out and walked off the stage. I stand by my original comments, taking into consideration the critique she's received over the past 3-4 weeks from nearly every judge.

[zuffy]

Originally posted by SleepyW
I'm kind of tired of so many people ragging on Carmen baout her face. Firstly, I think she's adorable. Second, did you not have acne problems at 18? Cut her some slack.

Also, considering she is only 18, I'd say she held up pretty well considering she's up in front of millions of viewers and 3 industry pros are slamming her performance every week. I would have bet she would have broken down on stage and started crying or something, but she never did. My hat's off to her for taking the insults and criticism like a pro.

Acted more professional than Kim L.

[Josh-da-man]

Originally posted by Patman
I can't see the producers making the "I'm carrying Ruben's baby" poster...

Maybe it read "I'm carrying Ruben's baby back ribs."

(Mean, I know.)

[Josh-da-man]

Originally posted by xnlt
Next week's theme is Neil Sedaka songs. He will also be the guest judge.

I hope you're joking.

[shaggybrown]

Originally posted by SleepyW
Feel free to check out www.dianewarren.com if you want a more comprehensive list. I don't think you realize the size of her collection of work. I'm not trying to get extremely argumentative about her (as I said, I don't LOVE her work), but I just don't think you know what you're talking about on this topic.

I just checked out the site and listened to the clips she had of every one of her top ten songs. I've got to admit, I knew her songs were popular, but I had no idea. She has written a lot of songs that I despise, which I expected. What I didn't expect, was that she had also written a lot of the songs that I really enjoyed. I actually have a better opinion of her work now then before I checked it out.

[xnlt]

Originally posted by Josh-da-man
I hope you're joking.

I wish I were.

[Alyoshka]

Originally posted by shaggybrown
I'm not a big fan of her work myself, but she's doing something right. The few songs of hers that I like, I like quite a bit. If her songs are so formulistic and empty, then why can't everyone match her success? Why couldn't someone put out a madlib book of Diane Warren songs?

Why can't everyone make may of the huge hit movies that come out, yet aren't masterpieces? A variety of reasons apply to both concepts.

1. It does take talent. She probably is a very talented writer for what she does. Just like Daniel Steele or James Paterson. They write well for their target. However, I doubt that she'll ever write a song that everyone knows and loves, like, as someone else pointed out, the Beatles were able to do.

2. She has the financial stability to do it. Very, very, very few people make a living as writers of literature, poetry, music, plays, etc. VERY few. She's lucky that she has been able to get to that point. She has the luxury that comes with it. If you or I could write eight hours a day, tinker at the piano, and work with other artists to perfect our writing, we'd probably have a better shot than either of us have now.

3. She gets lucky that the songs happen to pull at the heart strings of people. That the artists decide to sing the song. That the singles are promoted.

[das Monkey]

• Quoth SleepyW •

---

I'm not trying to get extremely argumentative about her

---

Could'a fooled me.

das

[Alyoshka]

Originally posted by SleepyW

Your comparing Diane Warren and pop music to Steven Seagal and movies? Wow...you really are out of it. I'd replace Seagal with someone like Denzil Washington or Harrison Ford (that's closer to the equivalent in their respective industries).

Nah, not to sound too pompous, but I do think I had the best analogy. Diane Warren is to writing pop music as Jerry Bruckheimer is to producing pop movies.

[Alyoshka]

Originally posted by xnlt
Next week's theme is Neil Sedaka songs. He will also be the guest judge.

He isn't joking around folks. Gear around for another ballad night. :gag:

[Alyoshka]

Originally posted by SleepyW


That said, your "substance over form" argument is about as weak as they come. It's called knowing your craft. I personally don't care for country music or hip hop, but being in the industry, I am familiar with the front-runners of the business in those areas, as it's my job to know. Your example is like saying "I'm in the sports industry, but I don't know anything about Larry Bird - who did he play for?" Now, if his job in the industry is wrapping wire in some third-rate reggae radio station in Fargo, North Dakota, then I wouldn't expect him to know anything about Diane Warren (for example)...but don't comment about being in the industry as if it makes you some kind of expert in the field.

Ahem, if it's so weak, address the argument I made. As of yet, you haven't really even attempted to show how it is weak. Substance over form is a very different argument than "Knowing your craft." I never questioned that Diane Warren doesn't know how to write music for the masses.

However, there is no substance to her music, regardless if it reaches millions. The reason is simply that none of her songs are timeless. She is not the next Bach, the next Ravel, the next Puccini, or even the next Billie Holiday. Nay, she is the next forgotten relic of the 90s and 2000s. Sorry if that damages her ego as well as yours.

[Jadzia]

Originally posted by SleepyW
)..but don't comment about being in the industry as if it makes you some kind of expert in the field.

I wasn't trying to come off as cocky or a music expert, but rather just as someone who has listened to a heck of a lot of music over the years (and far more music than has ever even made it to the top of charts.)

For the past 16 years I have worked in record stores, worked for major labels and in indie distribution. I've worked thousands of records, saw hundred of live shows, and my own personal CD collection is more than 6000 titles.

The pop ballad that was #1 on the charts 10 years ago just doesn't stick out for me. When I hear it, I'll remember "Oh, I remember when that was popular" but their bland titles just don't mean anything to me.

I really doubt that any of those songs will be ever considered classics. Just because you sell a ton of records doesn't mean they will be remembered in 20 years.

If you don't like my Steven Seagal analogy, ok how about Adam Sandler. He also has movies that do huge box office and rake in millions of dollars but I doubt they will hold up over the years as classics.

[Jadzia]

Originally posted by SleepyW
Your comparing Diane Warren and pop music to Steven Seagal and movies? Wow...you really are out of it. I'd replace Seagal with someone like Denzil Washington or Harrison Ford (that's closer to the equivalent in their respective industries).

Sheesh, I was not comparing their demographics. I was just throwing out some movies that were popular but not very memorable, Someone like Roger Ebert sees virtually every movie that comes out, so he's not going to vividly recall the plot for a throway movie that came out 10 years ago.

Steven Seagal is throwaway pop for action males, Diane Warren is throwaway pop for soccer moms. Different content, but same concept.


Do you really think that Diane Warren is critically acclaimed? That she is considered "hip"? Now, who is out of it?

I hate to break it to you, but there is a ton more happening in the music world besides what Clear Channel AC stations play on their narrow playlists.

[Pikul]

HEY! I remember Starship's "Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now." I bet Warren still kicks herself for not writing "We Built This City," though.

(Then again, what songwriter doesn't?)

Diane Warren used in an anology with Denzel Washington and Harrison Ford.

>Head explodes<

[Jadzia]

Do you remember the Hallmark card you received for your birthday 10 years ago? (I'm sure that card sold millions also.)

How about the Big Mac you ate 10 years ago? (Billions sold).


For an interesting read on what industry people think of Diane Warren, check out this thread at a music industry board.

People think she's either total schlock, or really successful at writing schlock that sells, and a few folks even confess to liking it. Interesting debate.

[das Monkey]

• Quoth Alyoshka •

---

Nah, not to sound too pompous, but I do think I had the best analogy. Diane Warren is to writing pop music as Jerry Bruckheimer is to producing pop movies.

---

In all honesty, this was the analogy I was thinking of before you typed it, so I certainly think it's valid. I also turn to James Horner (post 1992). There's no denying any of these people are very talented in their respective fields. I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't love Top Gun and Beverly Hills Cop and the scores for Willow and The Wrath of Khan. The problem many people have with these artists is that it's the same thing over and over and OVER, and it gets increasingly hollow and vapid with each successive iteration. Yep, they will make ungodly amounts of phat cash by repeating the same formula ad nauseum, but as an artist, amassing wealth isn't really a criteria for my respect.

With Warren, so much of it is the same "love is eternal," "our love will last forever," "love can move mountains," "everywhere I am there you'll be," "I'm everything I am because you loved me," "I live for loving you." And if it's not the positive version, it's the break-up version: "unbreak my heart," "how do I live," "I don't want to live without your love," "I'll never get over you getting over me," ...

There's no depth. Eternal love ... we get it ... what else ya got? She's often stated that she's never personally been in love, and that shines through in her music. There's no comprehension of the depth of genuine love and heartbreak. It's just the same romanticized fantasy repeated over and over, decade upon decade. Yawn.

I leave you with this that I read a while ago and always gives me a chuckle:

Where would we be without hired gun songwriters to give us those timeless, impersonal love songs that form the unwanted soundtrack to our lives? The ultimate professional songwriter; if there's a horrible Hallmark Moment love song topping the charts, odds are it's one of hers.

das

[Daytripper]

Originally posted by xnlt
Next week's theme is Neil Sedaka songs. He will also be the guest judge.


Oh Dear Lord....where did they dig him up from!? I mean, is he even playing Vegas?? Is Toni Tenille next? I swear, the first time I heard Neil Sedaka ("Laughter in the Rain"), I thought it was a woman. Really gave me the creeps actually. Hey, I was a kid.

[RichardW]

Originally posted by SleepyW
I think she was reacting to HOW Randy said it--seeing as how he rarely unloads on someone like that. Try putting yourself in their place. Every single contestant has had surprised looks at criticism, but you have to admit Randy went further across the criticism line than he needed to with his comment. I had the same look on my face, too. You would've too. I agreed that she wasn't going to win, but he didn't need to say it like that.

If it were you on stage, you probably would've cussed him out and walked off the stage. I stand by my original comments, taking into consideration the critique she's received over the past 3-4 weeks from nearly every judge.

Actually, Randy either finally unclogged his ears or he grew a pair. That was his first real criticism outside of the usual "a few pitch problems."

You may have had the same look on your face, but my wife and I (as well as probably quite a few viewers) had a huge smile on our faces.

And since you don't know me, why do you think I would cuss him out?

[MrHappyToes]

Where is Big Band week? I want Big Band week.

Are they deliberately trying to kill this show?

Big Band was the best week of the entire season last year... yet they decide not to do it this year??

Everyone looked great and sounded great that week (at least, when they remembered the words). And of course, Kelly's "Stuff Like That There" has become legendary.

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by das Monkey
I leave you with this that I read a while ago and always gives me a chuckle:

Where would we be without hired gun songwriters to give us those timeless, impersonal love songs that form the unwanted soundtrack to our lives? The ultimate professional songwriter; if there's a horrible Hallmark Moment love song topping the charts, odds are it's one of hers.

I could never understand the holier-than-thou attitudes taken by people with the assumption that if something isn't socially-conscious or contains "subtsance", then it's garbage. For every negative comment you find about anything, I can find a positive one. People will never agree on what's supposedly good and what's supposedly bad. That's why there is so much out there to choose from -- to essentially make everyone happy."Led Zeppelin didn't write music that everyone liked--they left that to the Bee Gees." Same thing would apply.

In genereal (in response to several posts that I don't want to individually reply to):

The point I think most of you are not getting that I've stated is not whether her songs are great, or timeless, or "classics" (which I've never asserted any of those), but that you should at least acknowledge what she's accomplished whether you personally like it or not. I could sit here and knock the Beatles all day long about how I think their music sucks, but at the end of the day, I respect what they were able to do in the industry. It seems as though some of you hold a grudge because someone else is doing something you consider fluff and making millions,, and you're not.

Pop music is popular for a reason - hence the name. Most of you may not like it, but I have news for you--most pop music lacks "substance," as you put it. The pop music that supposedly does isn't likely a big seller. I'd be willing to bet over half of your music collection is made up of songs that lack "substance" (I'd say the same for dance songs, country songs, or any genre of music). By your definitions, if a song has substance, it must be good. If you want substance over form, then great--that's your preference--but don't apply your preference to what everyone else should consider "good." If you are supposedly in the industry, I'd expect you to know different songs from different eras, whether you like them or not. Not personally liking something is a terrible reason to not remember it. That would be like a history teacher not knowing about the Civil War or WWII because it lacked "substance" and was unmemorable. Sounds silly to me.

[SleepyW]

Originally posted by RichardW
Actually, Randy either finally unclogged his ears or he grew a pair. That was his first real criticism outside of the usual "a few pitch problems."

You may have had the same look on your face, but my wife and I (as well as probably quite a few viewers) had a huge smile on our faces.

And since you don't know me, why do you think I would cuss him out?

I apologize for making that sound like a personalized attack and should have reworded it. My comment about "you might have cussed..." was actually a generalization of what many cocky, arrogant, immature, naive 18 year olds would likely have done in Carmen's position.

While Randy doesn't always say nice things, I think you would agree that his comment was one that prompted shocked looks at its lack of subtlty. What other reaction should she have had when someone says "you're not even close." Should she have just nodded and said, "Yeah, you're right, I sucked, I should just go home"? Be realistic. The reason I commended her behavior is for what she didn't do - she didn't talk back, she didn't cry, she didn't get upset. Heck, even Josh made a quip at Simon after his remarks.

[das Monkey]

• Quoth SleepyW •

---

If you want substance over form, then great--that's your preference--but don't apply your preference to what everyone else should consider "good."

---

I appreciate your points and don't want to turn this discussion ugly, so please take the tone with which I say this as calm and geniune:

You're right that this is our preference, but all those of us who criticized Diane Warren's songs did was share our opinion. We weren't trying to push it on anyone. You responded to our opinions, however, in an aggressive and (possibly unintentional) condescending fashion that we were in the wrong and needed to smarten up and see it your way.

I don't care if you like Diane Warren or not. Everyone likes different things. But I don't like it, and I'm willing to say so, and when someone implies that my opinion on this matter is either ill-informed or not valid, I will defend myself. That doesn't mean you have to agree with me; it's just my way of noting that your opinion on this matter is no more valid than mine.

das

[RichardW]

SleepyW, no harm done.

I agree, Carmen could have had a worse reaction. I remember last season when Justin got some bad feedback from Simon and he asked the audience if they liked it. That was truly unprofessional. It also brought him down a notch or two on the show and Kelly ended up winning, deservingly.

[big whoppa]

Originally posted by Jadzia
So how many people think the producers make some of those silly signs that the audience holds up?

I think they do. That's what they do on the WWF shows. You'd look like an idiot bringing a sign you made into the show.