Gallant Pig

das, let me warn you that if you do use that would around any Mexican, or Hispanic in general (who has probably been called the word) they will get highly offended and upset, and not go for your intellectual pursuit of not letting racists dictate your language. In your perfect world, sure the word may have some of historical background, but this isn't that world and the word is now basically the worst word you can say about a Hispanic (it's the equivilant of N!gger). I'm just warning you.

Also, I honestly can't believe there are no other ways to describe illegal Mexicans coming across the border... Here's one for you: "Illegal Mexican". WTF is wrong with simply that.

Gallant Pig

You can't turn back the clock and change the way a word has evolved (or devolved in this case). You simply can't. "Wetback" is highly offensive and comes off as racist in any context. "Illegal Mexican" is the most easy way to describe a Mexican who crosses the border illegally.

Red Dog

I don't know what others think about it, but I really couldn't care less if the feelings of an illegal Mexican are hurt because someone calls him a 'wetback.'

Gallant Pig

What if a legal Mexican gets offended?

Gil Jawetz

I know. Do people spend as much time trying to figure out how we can (a) make our borders safe and (b) help make life better for those poor souls whose lives are so bad that they'll risk death to enter our country and work sub-minimum wage as they do fretting over the loss of inoffensive words like "wetback" and "***" and symbols of love like the Confederate flag?

Gil Jawetz

And, remember, there was a time when "wetback" had no meaning. Then, according to folks here it aquired one meaning. Now it has aquired another. Language is fluid. If in 50 years when the population of the US is 75% Mexican-American it takes on a completely new meaning then that will be that and straight-up racists can lament the loss of their derogatory word.

Gallant Pig

It doesn't even make sense, really, in the context of swimming across a river since your entire body gets wet, not just your back. The way I understood the word to come from is more a way of describing the migrant workers from Mexico who worked in the fields and sweat (and your back is where you sweat the most when you are working in a field).

I can't seem to find the backing up of that definition though.

Gil Jawetz

Whoah, I was responding to something Gallant Pig said and then it dissappeared. What I was going to say was that I posted this because I thought it was interesting and I wanted to see what thoughts folks had on it.

I watch O'Reilly sometimes (although probably more in an "ironic" way, but sometimes he and I are on the same wavelength) but instances like this give truth to the lie that he is "fair and balanced" and "no spin." I don't think he's any worse than any other talk-news host on any other network but he's so sanctimonious that the use of a racist term like this should remind folks that he's not some beacon of journalistic integrity but just another slanted TV journalist.

Red Dog

They must have a pretty thin skin to get offended by a term that does not refer to them.

Gallant Pig

Quick question: does the term rag head offend you at all?

Gallant Pig

Ah, but there's the rub, the term is given to them by a sector of people from the US who want to be racist.

Gil Jawetz

I'm not gay but I find it offensive when I hear people being blatantly homophobic. Ditto for race, gender... How is this different? (not to mention I'd wager that 99% of uses of "wetback" are referring to all Mexicans.)

Plus, I'd imagine that many Mexican-American have a more complex understanding of illegal Mexican immigration than you do.

Red Dog

No. For one thing, I don't wear a turban. Second, it is just a word - it simply demonstrates the ignorance of the person using it. I've been called 'terrorist' before in a derogatory way. No big deal - nothing to get all worked up about.

Red Dog

What are the complexities? You are an illegal Mexican if you cross the border without going through customs or overstay a visa. What is so complex about this?

Gallant Pig

Fair enough!

das Monkey

• Quoth Gallant Pig •<HR SIZE=1>das, let me warn you that if you do use that would around any Mexican, or Hispanic in general (who has probably been called the word) they will get highly offended and upset, and not go for your intellectual pursuit of not letting racists dictate your language. In your perfect world, sure the word ma have some of historical background, but this isn't that world and the word is now basically the worst word you can say about a Hispanic (it's the equivilant of N!gger). I'm just warning you.

Also, I honestly can't believe there are no other ways to describe illegal Mexicans coming across the border... Here's one for you: "Illegal Mexico" !?!?! WTF is wrong with simply that.

Do you have a redneck? You live in the south right, so I'd guess you do. Can I call you that? <HR SIZE=1>

I believe you're still missing the point a bit. Some clarification, if you don't mind.

1) I understand perfectly how sensitive some are to the term "wetback" and wouldn't use the term myself in the presence of individuals I didn't previously know to understand my meaning. I also don't wear visible jewelry when walking downtown at night. I should have the right to, but I cannot depend on the rest of society to respect those rights. The fact that I wouldn't do it in an attempt to avoid confrontation doesn't change O'Reilly's right to use the term in its proper form. Being a public figure, he should have known better, since people will get pissed regardless of its valid use, but I'll still defend it.

2) I do not have a red neck, or more accurately do not exhibit the characteristics from which the term was formed (conservative/sheltered rural working class). If I did, then you should be perfectly allowed to refer to me as a redneck. The fact that many rednecks live in the South doesn't imply that all Southerners are rednecks. The fact that wetback typically refers to people crossing the border from Mexico doesn't imply that all Mexicans are wetbacks. To call me a "redneck" (you assume I'm White?) simply because I'm from the South without prior knowledge confirming this is the same as calling all Mexicans "wetbacks" simply because they're from Mexico, to which I've already stipulated as being offensive.

Were I a redneck, the term would be completely appropriate. Of course, it should be used in the right context. O'Reilly was specifically debating the status of illegal crossing of the border by water, not just running around calling people wetbacks for fun. If you were in a debate about rural social situations in the South, you should certainly be free to use the term as it applies.

It appears you're confusing my defense of using the term appropriately with a defense of simply refering to Mexicans as wetbacks (or simply refering to Southerners as rednecks). That is not the case.

The comparison to Nigger is inaccurate. It is a perversion of the Negro/Niger root and carries with it no intrinsic meaning other than to put down those who have dark skin. It would much more accurately compare to the term "spic" which I would find equally offensive.

das

Gil Jawetz

If someone's home life is so terrible that they will sneak across a heavily armed border at risk of dog bites and gun shots and hide out for fear of deportation, take a graveyard shift at an under-the-table-payment job for less than minimum wage, get treated like dirt, and send every miserable penny back home so his family might not starve to death, I'd say things get complicated. We definitely must not just allow our borders to become anarchy and we have to have a system that is fair to others who don't have a border to sneak across but at the same time we can't completely forget the words of our own Statue of Liberty:

Again, I'm not saying our borders should just be open to total breakdown but many of the illegal Mexicans are exactly the people that poem is talking about. There has to be a way to make it work.

das Monkey

• Quoth buskerdog •<HR SIZE=1>Whoah, I was responding to something Gallant Pig said and then it dissappeared. What I was going to say was that I posted this because I thought it was interesting and I wanted to see what thoughts folks had on it.<HR SIZE=1>

That's why I'm here. I'm just discussing things and trying to do so in as polite a manner as possible. I believe issues like this are worthy of discussion and am glad we're here talking about it (so long as the discussion remains civil).

das

Gallant Pig

I respect what you just said and I deleted the redneck comment quickly so it wouldn't be misconstrued as trying to insult you. Do agree with what you said about the N word, that's not really an apt comparison.

I wish this was a perfect world where these terms didn't carry such hate. If everyone was like you and Red Dog we wouldn't have these problems.

Gil Jawetz

I'd say it's worked so far.

das Monkey

• Quoth buskerdog •<HR SIZE=1>If someone's home life is so terrible that they will sneak across a heavily armed border at risk of dog bites and gun shots and hide out for fear of deportation, take a graveyard shift at an under-the-table-payment job for less than minimum wage, get treated like dirt, and send every miserable penny back home so his family might not starve to death, I'd say things get complicated. We definitely must not just allow our borders to become anarchy and we have to have a system that is fair to others who don't have a border to sneak across but at the same time we can't completely forget the words of our own Statue of Liberty:<HR SIZE=1>

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think Red Dog was addressing the complexities of the terminology and how it applies to the law. The social and ethical issues are another debate entirely, one that I find very worthy of discussion as well. It would be very difficult to argue against the Mexican working class as a whole having a damn fine work ethic and making major contributions to America as a nation, but again, I think that's another debate.

das

Gallant Pig

We are getting a bit off topic, but I would say the best way to make it work is try and help Mexico help itself with their poverty issues. Having them come here is a band aid, and obviously as the way you described it a horrible solution since they do go through so much crap.

Gallant Pig

Back to the word: does anyone think O'Reilly is really using it in a historical and literal context in that it describes what it describes, or could it be a hint of the underbelly of what is truly on his mind in terms of how he views certain groups?

I think it's a little bit of both. That's all I have to say really so I'll happily bow out of this argument, Red Dog and Das are great debators whom I respect and I've said all I want.

PS: how do you do that Quoth thing das? Believe it or not I thought Geoff had some hidden vB tag and I was going around typing [quoth] [/quoth] after I first saw you use it

Red Dog

Thank you.

A political discussion of illegal immigration does not belong here.

Gallant Pig

Before I go does anyone have a clip of this interview and him saying it?