(Verizon/Motorola/Google) DROID - November 6th

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

The softkeyboard is enough to prove it. It supports multi-touch "out of the box".

Again, Engadget's original review mentioned that both the hardware and OS for the DROID had multi-touch capability. They just didn't see any actual functionality when reviewing it.

Seeing as no multi-touch gestures are supported with the built-in apps, and the only thing that uses it is the keyboard to support overlapping typing, it's not surprising they missed the one solitary multi-touch function the DROID ships with.

I still don't get the hype over "pinch zoom".

It's more gestures than just pinch zoom. Here's some other gestures other products use:
http://theappleblog.com/2008/01/21/m...e-macbook-pro/
http://bumptop.com/doc/multi-touch-gestures/

Also, multi-touch gestures may not be a "make-or-break" feature, but it's noteworthy enough to put in reviews. It's also apparently noteworthy enough for you to spend a chunk of time trying to prove the various reviews "wrong."

[SonOfAStu]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Seeing as no multi-touch gestures are supported with the built-in apps, and the only thing that uses it is the keyboard to support overlapping typing, it's not surprising they missed the one solitary multi-touch function the DROID ships with.

How do you know that? Have you used a DROID and tried out all the apps? Or do you just take a bloggers review at face value and trust that they weren't also missing other things?

Originally Posted by Jay G.

It's more gestures than just pinch zoom. Here's some other gestures other products use:
http://theappleblog.com/2008/01/21/m...e-macbook-pro/
http://bumptop.com/doc/multi-touch-gestures/

Oh my, most of those are more retarded than "pinch zoom".

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Also, multi-touch gestures may not be a "make-or-break" feature, but it's noteworthy enough to put in reviews. It's also apparently noteworthy enough for you to spend a chunk of time trying to prove the various reviews "wrong."

If you're under the impression that any of this takes up a "chunk of time", you're sorely mistaken. And I'm not "trying" to do anything. The reviews ARE wrong. And whether or not it's noteworthy is irrelevant. If you (or anyone else) is going to link to a review spewing false information and claim that the product is somehow missing a feature that it isn't missing, yes, I'm going to take the three seconds to make sure that the truth is out there.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

How do you know that? Have you used a DROID and tried out all the apps? Or do you just take a bloggers review at face value and trust that they weren't also missing other things?

I'm trusting the reviews as well as I trust any reviews. However, it seems unlikely that every review is missing the gestures if they're really there. Especially after the pinch-zoom feature was discovered in a downloaded app.

You're the one that said that there is gesture support built into the included apps. Do you have any evidence for that assertion?

Oh my, most of those are more retarded than "pinch zoom".

Which is probably why pinch zoom is the most used/requested gesture. Obviously somebody likes it.

whether or not it's noteworthy is irrelevant.

I was just responding to you statement "I still don't get the hype over 'pinch zoom.'" Whether or not you personally care about the feature, it's noteworthy enough to cover in a review.

If you (or anyone else) is going to link to a review spewing false information and claim that the product is somehow missing a feature that it isn't missing, yes, I'm going to take the three seconds to make sure that the truth is out there.

And just to be clear, the truth is this:

Android 2.0 and DROID hardware both have multi-touch capability. However, none of the DROID's included apps have any apparent multi-touch gesture support, and the only thing that utilizes multi-touch out of the the box is the virtual keyboard (to capture overlapping typing). The GSM/European version of the same hardware/OS contains multi-touch gesture support in its included apps. Third-party apps downloaded can have multi-touch gestures, and these gestures work on the DROID.

This is what is known at the moment.

[emachine12]

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

They're confused (and wrong) about the multi-touch. It doesn't have some of the exact same "gestures" (pinch zoom) that Apple and others have used, but the screen is certainly multi-touch capable.

Personally, I could give a rats ass if I can "pinch zoom" (God I feel like a dork even saying it). Double tap zoom works just as well, and I can't see how it could possibly be considered a "con" for the phone unless everything has to be just like an Apple product.

Originally Posted by emachine12

You have to remembeer that people want devices that act like the iPhone because its cool. That's the expectation, just like a lot of people expect the Wii, The PS3, and the XBox 360 to work the same damn way when it comes to online play. When you get down to the nitty gritty, it does work the same when you are playing but getting connected and online with your firends is where it differs.

And according to Engadget's review, it does not have multi-touch so they confirm G4's review. The Android 2.0 OS supports multi-touch events but the Verizon Droid does not use them in any way.

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

Engadget is just as wrong. They also originally said it was all plastic in their review (before they changed it).

The DROID is as capable for multi-touch as anything. There's actually a video on Youtube somewhere of a GSM version where they actually used "pinch-zoom" on their browser. Obviously that feature won't be on the DROID at launch, but the phone is certainly capable.

G4 and Engadget are not infallible.

This was posted at the very of the beginning of this stupid multi-touch argument. And I just noticed that SonOtAStu didn't even read my whole post.

When quoting me, in his response he ddn't even bother reading the whole thing.

Right at the bottom:

The Android 2.0 OS supports multi-touch events but the Verizon Droid does not use them in any way is from Engdget's review

That would be from Post #65.

Stu then says Engadget is wrong. How could Engadget be wrong about that if it turned out to be true? Stu also continues to argue with us about multi-touch to which we say that both the Droid and The MyTouch support mulit-touch but the applications it comes with do not support those features. Application to me does not include the damn virtual keyboard although that can be up for debate.

I can understand being passionate about winning your argument but when you aruge then add but that's something I don't care about then stop fighting over it.

If you truly find the feature useless then it not being on the phone, tablet, PC, telelvision, remote control, or car stereo is not worth wasting your time over. Especially if you are arguing just to be try to be right to prove someone wrong. There are several sources, not just Bloggers, who are more credible then some people on a message board who everyone goes to for reviews.

G4, Engadget, CNet, Gdgt, PCWorld, Phonescoop, etc. all state the phone out of box does not support Multitouch. That's what they reviewed a phone out of the box. If you really want to be the one source for the right information then please contact these sites and let them know they are wrong and send them the video of the Milestone and the feature you don't care about. This way they can update their information.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by emachine12

Application to me does not include the damn virtual keyboard although that can be up for debate.

In addition, the keyboard does not have obvious multi-touch support. No gestures obviously, because it's a keyboard. However, you also cannot press two keys simultaneously, according to reports. There's no ability to, say, hold a shift key and select an uppercase letter. The multi-touch is really just a background capability of the keyboard so that it captures typing better, such as when someone presses the next key to type with one finger before fully letting up on the previous key with another finger (overlapping typing).

[Deftones]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Why do you think that multi-touch gesture support is a factor of timing though, when the Milestone will have this support and is due out only 3 days after the DROID? Certainly multi-touch gestures in the apps didn't come down to 3 days of extra development on the Milestone.

English, do you speak it? Could you just come out and say you think it'll be sooner than that? I think that's what you are getting at without actually writing those words.

[Deftones]

Also, Verizon confirms you won't have to pay $45 for the data plan unless you are a corporate customer. Yay!

http://www.gearlog.com/2009/11/perso..._will_cost.php

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Deftones

English, do you speak it? Could you just come out and say you think it'll be sooner than that? I think that's what you are getting at without actually writing those words.

No, I'm saying that I'm not convinced that the gestures will come to the DROID at all. It obviously wasn't a problem with either the hardware or the software that prevented gestures from being on it at launch, since the same hardware/software will have the gestures in a different country.

[Deftones]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

No, I'm saying that I'm not convinced that the gestures will come to the DROID at all. It obviously wasn't a problem with either the hardware or the software that prevented gestures from being on it at launch, since the same hardware/software will have the gestures in a different country.

Well 3rd party support has already shown it will be there, just maybe not to the on-phone apps. I guess I have more faith that we'll get updates than you do, apparently.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Deftones

Well 3rd party support has already shown it will be there, just maybe not to the on-phone apps.

Multi-touch gesture support is on the phone, and isn't on the included apps.

I guess I have more faith that we'll get updates than you do, apparently.

I'm sure the DROID will receive a number of OS updates.

However, my question is, why are you so convinced the updates will add multi-touch gestures to the included apps? Why do you think the gestures weren't included in the first place?

If you think it was just an issue of development time , then it would be reasonable to assume an update would "fix" it. However, this doesn't gel with the fact that the Motorola Milestone (European DROID) has multi-touch gestures built into the included apps, and is due out only 3 days after the DROID.

There seems to be another reason why gestures aren't included in the base install for the US DROID. Some are speculating about US patents Apple has regarding multi-touch. Whatever the case though, I don't think it's wise to just assume gestures will be included in the next update for the DROID.

[Deftones]

Originally Posted by Jay G.

Multi-touch gesture support is on the phone, and isn't on the included apps.


I'm sure the DROID will receive a number of OS updates.

However, my question is, why are you so convinced the updates will add multi-touch gestures to the included apps? Why do you think the gestures weren't included in the first place?

If you think it was just an issue of development time , then it would be reasonable to assume an update would "fix" it. However, this doesn't gel with the fact that the Motorola Milestone (European DROID) has multi-touch gestures built into the included apps, and is due out only 3 days after the DROID.

There seems to be another reason why gestures aren't included in the base install for the US DROID. Some are speculating about US patents Apple has regarding multi-touch. Whatever the case though, I don't think it's wise to just assume gestures will be included in the next update for the DROID.

Dude, seriously, why the hell do you keep repeating information like it's some answer to a question. I don't know what your vested interest in this, other than you seem to be an Apple fan or owner of an iphone. I don't know why multi-touch wasn't included from the get go. I don't want to speculate because we don't have any information as to why it wasn't.

Really, whether it takes a day, a month or a year, who cares why it wasn't included on the phone? Sure, it's annoying not to have a feature being utilized right out of the box, but as that video shows it's easily achieved through third party support.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Deftones

Dude, seriously, why the hell do you keep repeating information like it's some answer to a question.

Because you don't seem to be understanding what I'm writing.

I don't know what your vested interest in this, other than you seem to be an Apple fan or owner of an iphone.

I own a G1, and have never bought an Apple machine/program.

I don't know why multi-touch wasn't included from the get go. I don't want to speculate because we don't have any information as to why it wasn't.

And yet you have no problem speculating on when it will be added to the phone.

Really, whether it takes a day, a month or a year, who cares why it wasn't included on the phone?

Again, who's to say it will ever be included with the DROID?

Sure, it's annoying not to have a feature being utilized right out of the box, but as that video shows it's easily achieved through third party support.

Except I'm not sure if there's any downloadable browser with the feature yet, and some of the included apps are non-replaceable. And even if all the included apps can be replaced with a downloaded one, it's still worth noting.

[Deftones]

jesus christ, you really know how turn a thread to shit, don't you? seriously, if you want to argue just for the sake of arguing just come out and state it, please. you aren't contributing anything to this thread.

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by Deftones

jesus christ, you really know how turn a thread to shit, don't you?

So, reduced to solely ad hominem attacks now, are you? You stated that you thought that multi-touch gestures would be added to the DRIOD with a Android 2.1 update, and I requested your reasoning for thinking so. I'm sorry if asking you to back up your statements with reasoning and facts counts as "turning a thread to shit," but I felt it was a reasonable reaction.

[SonOfAStu]

Oh my gosh - I can't believe this has devolved into this mess. Yes, yes yes, the DROID browser, image viewer, etc. do not support PINCH ZOOM(!!1!) out of the box.

However, part of the appeal of the DROID (to me at least) is the openness of the Android platform and the alternative apps you can use for, well, anything and everything. The phone/OS DOES support multi-touch (and even PINCH ZOOM!!!11OMG!11!!) and anyone who wants to write it into their app will do so.

The original G4 review (and the poster who linked to it) claimed that the DROID did not have multi-touch capabilities (not that it just didn't ship with apps using it). And then they (or someone else) brought up Engadget's "review" to confirm that the DROID was not capable of multi-touch. They were just as wrong then as they are now. That's all I was saying. Spin it however you want.

If you are seriously using it as a negative for the phone - than it's just not for you. I don't know what is, but it certainly isn't this. OMG NO PINCH ZOOM OUT OF THE BOX!!!

[Jay G.]

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

The original G4 review (and the poster who linked to it) claimed that the DROID did not have multi-touch capabilities (not that it just didn't ship with apps using it).

So G4 was wrong, but they can be forgiven for their misconception based on actually using the device that comes with no built in functionality for multi-touch gestures.

I don't think emachine12 was trying to claim it had no multi-touch, just relaying what the reviews were saying.

And then they (or someone else) brought up Engadget's "review" to confirm that the DROID was not capable of multi-touch.

Actually, the Engadget's review always said there wasn't any multi-touch functionality, the review always pointed out that the hardware should be capable. Engadget also quickly updated their review to point out the Android 2.0 is also multi-touch capable.

If you are seriously using it as a negative for the phone - than it's just not for you. I don't know what is, but it certainly isn't this.

So if anyone considers this a negative, then the phone's not for them? Even if they feel that all the other positives for the phone far outweigh this negative?

Nothing is perfect. If the phone doesn't have multi-touch gestures built into the included apps, then that's a negative for those who want that. If, say, some other extremely popular phone doesn't have a physical keyboard, then that's a negative for those who want one. I don't see why someone's attitude towards a phone has to be either all positive or all negative. If a phone has its flaws, it's important to point them out and consider them.

OMG NO PINCH ZOOM OUT OF THE BOX!!!

“Cool, I broke his brain!”

[emachine12]

Originally Posted by SonOfAStu

Oh my gosh - I can't believe this has devolved into this mess. Yes, yes yes, the DROID browser, image viewer, etc. do not support PINCH ZOOM(!!1!) out of the box.

However, part of the appeal of the DROID (to me at least) is the openness of the Android platform and the alternative apps you can use for, well, anything and everything. The phone/OS DOES support multi-touch (and even PINCH ZOOM!!!11OMG!11!!) and anyone who wants to write it into their app will do so.

The original G4 review (and the poster who linked to it) claimed that the DROID did not have multi-touch capabilities (not that it just didn't ship with apps using it). And then they (or someone else) brought up Engadget's "review" to confirm that the DROID was not capable of multi-touch. They were just as wrong then as they are now. That's all I was saying. Spin it however you want.

If you are seriously using it as a negative for the phone - than it's just not for you. I don't know what is, but it certainly isn't this. OMG NO PINCH ZOOM OUT OF THE BOX!!!

Please stop bringing this up. Please.

Look, there are other issues like the keyboard which is flush and a pretty useless D-pad. These are minor nitpicks though.

A major problem with the Droid is that nearly every smartphone coming from manufacturers including the MyTouch support GSM or WCDMA radios of some sort. Hell, the Milestone supports GSM and WCMDA even though the phone is not intended for the Japanese market.

Yeah, Google was smart to offer a free turn by turn navigation system with the Droid. And the Droid has open architecture with relaxed application approval so pretty much any app is going to be on the market place.

However, its a $200 device or $100 for those who qualify for NE2 discount. That's a lot money for such a device. Especially considering, the Droid Eris offers pretty much the same experience for $100 less.

So tell me why would I pay $100 more for Google 2.0 (which I'm sure the Eris will be upgradable to in the future anyway) and for the new Google Maps with audible turn by turn?

The only argument I can see is the faster processor but c'mon if people are coming from other smartphones the speed difference won't be noticable. If they are willing to pay the premium for the Droid then yeah, it better have a faster processor.

[Suprmallet]

Anyone who wants a Droid better buy it now, because starting on November 15th, all new Verizon contracts of "advanced phones" will have a $350 termination fee. This kind of shit makes me crazy. Every carrier is doing something to screw consumers, whether it's AT&T restricting tethering and Google Voice on the iPhone, Verizon jacking up fees, or T-Mobile just flat out sucking. I haven't seen too many bad things about Sprint, except their phone selection blows. I should just move to Japan.

[Timber]

Well the Slacker App is out now for Android making this a no brainer for me. Only app that I really want.

[emachine12]

Originally Posted by Suprmallet

Anyone who wants a Droid better buy it now, because starting on November 15th, all new Verizon contracts of "advanced phones" will have a $350 termination fee. This kind of shit makes me crazy. Every carrier is doing something to screw consumers, whether it's AT&T restricting tethering and Google Voice on the iPhone, Verizon jacking up fees, or T-Mobile just flat out sucking. I haven't seen too many bad things about Sprint, except their phone selection blows. I should just move to Japan.

Considering VZW is losing money since the Droid doesn't need VZNavigator and that Google uses Amazon MP3 for its music, I figure VZW would find some way to make the money back.

But a $350 ETF?! Wow, didn't see that coming.

[SonOfAStu]

Why does raising the ETF matter? If you fulfill your contract, it doesn't matter.

[Suprmallet]

You're right. If you fulfill your contract, it doesn't matter. It could be a $20,000 ETF. But, if for some reason you have to cancel your contract, the bump is annoying. Especially since there have been initiatives to move American cellular companies away from the two year contract model.

[nickdawgy]

I think that the ETF increase is laughable. But yeah, if you don't break your contract, why worry? Of course if I had to break it for some reason, I'd do whatever I could to get out of paying it. If that didn't work, I'd send them $20 a month or something just to draw it out

[Suprmallet]

The problem is, IIRC from when I had to break my contract to Helio, you have to pay it off at the time of cancellation or they continue to bill you every month for the full amount of your service. Might not be the same with other carriers, but I imagine they have to have ways of collecting on ETFs, otherwise, why bother to have them at all?

But I think the FCC needs to put their foot down and say that all phones need to work on all carriers. If you choose, you can buy a subsidized version with a contract, or you can buy unsubsidized and get contract-free service from any carrier. There should be no difference in rates for contracts versus non-contract service. That way, those people who want the freedom to choose can buy upfront and won't have to sweat early termination fees, and those who just need a phone and don't care about much else can get the subsidized at a lower price and not worry about it.

[SonOfAStu]

You can buy phones from Verizon without signing a two year contract. We're all spoiled fucking rotten thinking mobile devices should cost little to nothing because we are used to the subsidization.

Do you know why Verizon raised their ETF rates? People were signing up for a new line of service, getting top of the line phones with the subsidy, paying the ETF and then selling the phone on ebay and STILL making a profit. That's a complete loss to Verizon. They give the phone away for much less than it costs them and still don't get the monthly contract fees. How can you blame them for raising the ETF to deter this practice?

It's really only going to hurt people who are trying to flip phones to make money.