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Old 01-23-13, 06:27 PM   #351
WallyOPD
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

John Fox got fired from Carolina and was scooped up pretty quickly by Denver. He's not a bad coach by any means, but he did only have 3 winning seasons out of 9 with the Panthers and was coming off a 2-14 disaster.
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Old 01-23-13, 07:33 PM   #352
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

heh, forgot about him. He only had 3 winning seasons, but he also took over a 1-15 team. And outside of that last season, he had 3 7-9 seasons and 2 8-8 ones, with an overall winning record (even considering the 1-15 team he took over and the awful 2-14 season). But Lovie could make similar arguments, and you're absolutely right, he is an exception to the general rule.
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Old 01-23-13, 07:39 PM   #353
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Am I the only one who thinks that Ken Whisenhunt is a very good head coach?

I mean, he took the Arizona Cardinals to the Super Bowl for crying out loud! And that team only declined because of the incompetence in the front office (notice Anquan Boldin is going to the Super Bowl, and made two key TD catches on Sunday). The Cardinals roster is crap. Vince Lombardi couldn't have won with those guys.

And Whisenhunt didn't get hired for any of the current HC jobs. He took the OC job in San Diego. He may get another shot as a HC in a year or two. Honestly, he was about 3rd or 4th on my wish list this year.
Gotta agree with RedDog. Whisenhut rode the Warner train. As soon as it left the winning left as well. I can't believe Whisenhunt with an offensive mind didn't develop or at least draft a qb high in the draft. I mean drafting Ryan Lindley and John Skelton isn't getting it done. I think he should get another chance but I would do it with some caution.
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Old 01-23-13, 07:44 PM   #354
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
Anyone who thinks that race played one tiny bit into any of these HC hirings is just ignorant and looking for racism where there is none.

Team owners and GM's are looking out for themselves. WINNING is what they care about. Well, winning and making money - and of course you make more money when you're winning.

Lovie missed the playoffs more often than he made it. Norv made the playoffs as many times as he missed it in San Diego and got fired. Why? Because he was a mediocre head coach. He didn't get the job done. Neither did Lovie.

Lovie Smith is a great defensive coach, but he isn't someone I'd hire as a Head Coach. I wouldn't have hired Norv, either. I wouldn't have hired Andy Reid, for what that's worth. The Eagles fell apart over the last couple of years. I would have hired Ken Whisenhunt over Andy Reid or Lovie Smith. Easily.

Hell, Whisenhunt did a really good job in Arizona until the GM took the team apart and let all the talent walk. I'd say he's a MUCH better candidate than Lovie Smith, and he didn't get a HC job, either.

It's not about race. It's about how you are perceived as a coach. Lovie is perceived as someone who cannot get the job done because of his offensive shortcomings. He has a glaring weakness in the X's and O's department. A head coach cannot afford to have any glaring X's and O's weaknesses. Not if he's trying to get a new job.

Calling the race card in this case is really weak. Race had ZERO to do with Lovie not getting a HC job this year.

Not one tiny bit? Not even just a little bit?

Has race played any part at all in there being a dearth of qualified black candidates?
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Old 01-23-13, 08:20 PM   #355
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Not one tiny bit? Not even just a little bit?
You're talking about GM's who want to keep their jobs. You're talking about owners who want to make MILLIONS of dollars in profit every year.

They have to win to maximize their chances of achieving those goals. They can't afford to let race get in the way of good judgment.

Quote:
Has race played any part at all in there being a dearth of qualified black candidates?
Well, look where the hires came from. Mostly offensive coordinators. Right there is the problem this year as there aren't many black offensive coordinators. Multiple defensive coordinators, but not so many offensive coordinators. Why is that? Who knows?

It may just come down to the former players who got into coaching came from the defensive side of the ball. Maybe the black offensive position coaches aren't aggressive enough in seeking out greater responsiblity. Maybe they need to work with their offensive coordinators more closely so they can learn more about how the coordinator's job works. Maybe the NFL needs to expand their minority coaching internships (as I understand it it's just a pre-season thing).

There just weren't a lot of qualified candidates this year. The best candidates weren't black. That has nothing to do with ethnicity, it's just the way it worked out this year. If the NFL really wants to improve that then they need to do more outreach to bring in new black coaches at the position coach level and do some off season training/education to help them move forward.
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Old 01-23-13, 08:22 PM   #356
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Originally Posted by bootsy View Post
Gotta agree with RedDog. Whisenhut rode the Warner train. As soon as it left the winning left as well. I can't believe Whisenhunt with an offensive mind didn't develop or at least draft a qb high in the draft. I mean drafting Ryan Lindley and John Skelton isn't getting it done. I think he should get another chance but I would do it with some caution.
Whisenhunt wasn't the GM. He didn't run the draft or pick the players. He made his suggestions, but he wasn't in charge of the draft for the Cardinals.

It wasn't his fault that the team ran off Anquan Boldin and a bunch of other top notch players and replaced them with a bunch of mediocre players.
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Old 01-23-13, 08:56 PM   #357
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Anyone watch Sean Payton's press conference from the Senior Bowl today? Not the most exciting hour of TV.
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Old 01-23-13, 09:13 PM   #358
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post


Well, look where the hires came from. Mostly offensive coordinators. Right there is the problem this year as there aren't many black offensive coordinators. Multiple defensive coordinators, but not so many offensive coordinators. Why is that? Who knows?

It may just come down to the former players who got into coaching came from the defensive side of the ball. Maybe the black offensive position coaches aren't aggressive enough in seeking out greater responsiblity. Maybe they need to work with their offensive coordinators more closely so they can learn more about how the coordinator's job works. Maybe the NFL needs to expand their minority coaching internships (as I understand it it's just a pre-season thing).

There just weren't a lot of qualified candidates this year. The best candidates weren't black. That has nothing to do with ethnicity, it's just the way it worked out this year. If the NFL really wants to improve that then they need to do more outreach to bring in new black coaches at the position coach level and do some off season training/education to help them move forward.
You are describing, but refusing to acknowledge, a systematic problem, one that race probably plays a part. I would generally agree that you can't say race, or more specifically racism, played any part in this year's hires, but one can point to race being a factor in the lack of offensive coordinators, or there being a lack of former players entering into coaching on the offensive side of the ball. Is it really that much different than when there were no black quarterbacks? Why hasn't there been more outreach efforts?



Quote:
Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
You're talking about GM's who want to keep their jobs. You're talking about owners who want to make MILLIONS of dollars in profit every year.

They have to win to maximize their chances of achieving those goals. They can't afford to let race get in the way of good judgment.
Now this is just silly. History in and out of sports, is littered with examples where people and organisations did just that, let race get in the way of the achievement of their goals.

Talking specifically about the NFL, and GMs who want to keep their jobs, they constantly show a lack of any courage or imagination in their hiring, using the old boy network over and over. Since there haven't been enough minority coaches to be part of that network, you get situations like this year. Shortsighted gutless GMs hiring people they know and are friends with, almost all of whom are white. Hell, Pat fucking Shurmur was hired. Or in Cleveland, Mike Lombardi was hired again. Unbelievable.
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Old 01-23-13, 09:23 PM   #359
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharoh View Post
You are describing, but refusing to acknowledge, a systematic problem, one that race probably plays a part. I would generally agree that you can't say race, or more specifically racism, played any part in this year's hires, but one can point to race being a factor in the lack of offensive coordinators, or there being a lack of former players entering into coaching on the offensive side of the ball. Is it really that much different than when there were no black quarterbacks? Why hasn't there been more outreach efforts?
If the black former players don't care enough to reach out to their former teams to see how they can get into coaching then how can they be expected to be leaders? They've got to have the tenacity to go after those jobs. They shouldn't just sit around waiting for an opportunity. If the NFL has to recruit minorities to get more minorities into coaching then are they really qualified?? You either really want it or you don't.




Quote:
Now this is just silly. History in and out of sports, is littered with examples where people and organisations did just that, let race get in the way of the achievement of their goals.
Not with NFL money on the line. And that history you refer to isn't recent.

Quote:
Talking specifically about the NFL, and GMs who want to keep their jobs, they constantly show a lack of any courage or imagination in their hiring, using the old boy network over and over. Since there haven't been enough minority coaches to be part of that network, you get situations like this year. Shortsighted gutless GMs hiring people they know and are friends with, almost all of whom are white. Hell, Pat fucking Shurmur was hired. Or in Cleveland, Mike Lombardi was hired again. Unbelievable.
So it has to do with friends or people that those gutless GM's are comfortable with. As we've seen Art Shell, Mike Tomlin, and Lovie Smith get these jobs you can't say that racism is playing a role in this anymore.

Just because there were inequities 35 or 45 years ago doesn't mean that racism is still a driving force in the NFL today. The money is so much bigger now that race just isn't even entered into the equation.

And GM's that are stupid or gutless and hire a tired retread get fired. Just ask A.J. Smith about it.
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Old 01-23-13, 09:31 PM   #360
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Whisenhunt wasn't the GM. He didn't run the draft or pick the players. He made his suggestions, but he wasn't in charge of the draft for the Cardinals.

It wasn't his fault that the team ran off Anquan Boldin and a bunch of other top notch players and replaced them with a bunch of mediocre players.
You gotta do better than Kolb and Skelton. He is the head coach and if he wants to keep his job he has to do wayyy better than that. How hard is it to tell the gm we need to at least draft a qb in one of the 1st 3 rounds.
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Old 01-23-13, 09:36 PM   #361
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Originally Posted by B5Erik View Post
If the black former players don't care enough to reach out to their former teams to see how they can get into coaching then how can they be expected to be leaders? They've got to have the tenacity to go after those jobs. They shouldn't just sit around waiting for an opportunity. If the NFL has to recruit minorities to get more minorities into coaching then are they really qualified?? You either really want it or you don't.





Not with NFL money on the line. And that history you refer to isn't recent.


So it has to do with friends or people that those gutless GM's are comfortable with. As we've seen Art Shell, Mike Tomlin, and Lovie Smith get these jobs you can't say that racism is playing a role in this anymore.

Just because there were inequities 35 or 45 years ago doesn't mean that racism is still a driving force in the NFL today. The money is so much bigger now that race just isn't even entered into the equation.

And GM's that are stupid or gutless and hire a tired retread get fired. Just ask A.J. Smith about it.
You mean the A.J. Smith that made millions and lasted ten or so seasons?

The money is there regardless, thanks largely to the socialist nature of the NFL. This NFL money on the line really isn't the issue you believe it to be.

And I have to assume from your post that you oppose the Rooney rule? After all, the minority candidates should simply want it enough to force teams to interview and hire them, no?


Lastly, I think you need to learn a bit about systematic racism in society, including in businesses more lucrative than the NFL. This isn't something from 35 years ago.
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Old 01-23-13, 09:52 PM   #362
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

I firmly believe that overt racism did not play a role in the hiring or firing of any NFL coaches. But inherent racism in the system, or subconscious racism by relying on an old boy network that until fairly recently excluded blacks? I think it's silly for anyone to suggest that could not have played a role somewhere. Not much to do about it, the Rooney rule strikes me as silly, but it's equally silly to ignore that it can and does exist.
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Old 01-23-13, 10:00 PM   #363
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Holy Smoke, I see Red Dog is sitting this one out a bit to cool the flames, but I agree with everything he has said over the last couple pages.
I don't think there is an overt racism. It's called win or get fired. Plenty, and then another plenty coaches have gotten fired for having the same record as Smith over the years of the NFL. When they are white nobody notices. He had his shot. IMO professional sports is a dog eat dog world anyway.
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Old 01-24-13, 12:12 AM   #364
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Holy Smoke, I see Red Dog is sitting this one out a bit to cool the flames, but I agree with everything he has said over the last couple pages.
I don't think there is an overt racism. It's called win or get fired. Plenty, and then another plenty coaches have gotten fired for having the same record as Smith over the years of the NFL. When they are white nobody notices. He had his shot. IMO professional sports is a dog eat dog world anyway.
I see you should have sat this one out like your buddy because judging by this post you seem pretty lost as to what is being discussed for that matter lost in general. We're talking about coaches that get hired and re-hired and the lack of minority candidates in that mix. When they are white no one notices because they get re-hired.

He had his shot. LOL. He SHOULD GET AND NEEDS ANOTHER SHOT.
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Old 01-24-13, 12:20 AM   #365
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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I see you should have sat this one out like your buddy because judging by this post you seem pretty lost as to what is being discussed for that matter lost in general. We're talking about coaches that get hired and re-hired and the lack of minority candidates in that mix. When they are white no one notices because they get re-hired.

He had his shot. LOL. He SHOULD GET AND NEEDS ANOTHER SHOT.
Did Ken Whisenhunt get another shot? Nope, and I'd say he's a better coach than Lovie Smith...
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Old 01-24-13, 12:33 AM   #366
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Did Ken Whisenhunt get another shot? Nope, and I'd say he's a better coach than Lovie Smith...
Not yet. When he stops thinking, hoping, wishing his savior Kurt Warner will make a comeback maybe he will.

Ken Whisenhunt better than Lovie. Dude has a 45-51 career record. Just think if he didn't have Warner what that record would look like.
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Old 01-24-13, 12:41 AM   #367
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

Sorry B5Erik, your opinion stopped counting in this debate when you said Whisenhunt is a better HC than Lovie. Absurd.
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Old 01-24-13, 12:46 AM   #368
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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I'd take Lovie over Schwartz in Detroit.
Schwartz is the worst head coach in the NFL.
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Old 01-24-13, 01:48 AM   #369
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

If Mike Tomlin was fired today, he'd get rehired no problem.

The problem isn't that Lovie Smith is black, the problem is that Lovie Smith is a shitty football coach.
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Old 01-24-13, 01:57 AM   #370
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Not yet. When he stops thinking, hoping, wishing his savior Kurt Warner will make a comeback maybe he will.

Ken Whisenhunt better than Lovie. Dude has a 45-51 career record. Just think if he didn't have Warner what that record would look like.
Whisenhunt had to deal with one of the worst GM's in the entire NFL. His roster went to shit within one year of Warner's retirement.

Anyone who is halfway informed on NFL roster moves would know this. You can't win with shitty players. Whisenhunt had shitty players, period. Matt Leinert turned out to be a total bust. That wasn't Whisenhunt's fault.

Warner alone wasn't going to get that team to the Super Bowl. That was a VERY well coached team. No one else ever got the Cardinals to the Super Bowl. And Arians isn't going to do it, either.
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Old 01-24-13, 02:02 AM   #371
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Sorry B5Erik, your opinion stopped counting in this debate when you said Whisenhunt is a better HC than Lovie. Absurd.
Really? Then why is it that Lovie got to the playoffs less than half the years he ran the Bears? And over the last 3 or 4 years Lovie's had a MUCH better roster than Whisenhunt's had. Night and day.

Lovie can't coach offense and he can't get along with offensive coordinators. The guy is DYSFUNCTIONAL as a head coach. People in Chicago are not upset that he's gone. Is that just racism, or is it maybe due to the fact that he isn't as good a coach as some people make him out to be?

Whisenhunt has no such issues. People in Arizona are not happy about his firing. They wanted the GM fired and they want the owner to sell the team. Whisenhunt was just the scapegoat for their incompetence.


Quote:
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If Mike Tomlin was fired today, he'd get rehired no problem.

The problem isn't that Lovie Smith is black, the problem is that Lovie Smith is a shitty football coach.
I wouldn't go that far (to say he's a shitty coach), but I think dysfunctional is a better term to use when describing Lovie Smith as a football coach. He is a great defensive coach, and a decent head coach overall, but he is completely dysfunctional when it comes to offense.
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Old 01-24-13, 07:26 AM   #372
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Plenty, and then another plenty coaches have gotten fired for having the same record as Smith over the years of the NFL.
Plenty x 2? Please name the last ten win coach of any color to get fired in the NFL.

This is a sincere question, and there may be examples, I'm just having a hard time thinking of one.
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Old 01-24-13, 08:22 AM   #373
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Schwartz is the worst head coach in the NFL.
9 months ago I would have started a war of words over your comment -- and I know you're the boards biggest troll... that said, I'm starting to agree with you. Lions - business as usual.
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Old 01-24-13, 08:24 AM   #374
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Plenty x 2? Please name the last ten win coach of any color to get fired in the NFL.

This is a sincere question, and there may be examples, I'm just having a hard time thinking of one.
Marty was 14-2 when the Chargers fired. Also, he actually made the playoffs that year unlike Lovie.

Wins don't matter. The playoffs matter. He missed the playoffs 5 out of 6 years. His teams tanked the last two years.

Here's a good reason Lovie was fired. His offense was always ranked near the bottom during his 9 years. They were going to need another offensive coordinator because there was no way Tice would be back. If Lovie came back that would be 5 OC's in 10yrs, and 4 in the last 5.

There was no way they would get a qualified offensive coordinator with Lovie going into the last year of his contract. There's is no OC job security with Lovie to begin with, but as a lame duck coach? Forget about it. The Bears had to make the change.
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Old 01-24-13, 08:25 AM   #375
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Re: 2012-2013 NFL Offseason Thread

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Lovie can't coach offense and he can't get along with offensive coordinators. The guy is DYSFUNCTIONAL as a head coach.
Lovie never had any problems with his OCs. He just couldn't pick a competent one.
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