ESPN's 30 For 30 Documentary Series

[Duh Vuh Duh]

Finally caught this episode last night, thought it was really good showing how Ali hung in there for so long because being a boxer was his identity regardless of whether he was actually able to compete against Holmes.

Then after reading the text and seeing he fought again after that fight one more time, not wanting to let go of the boxer identity and those dilusions really hurt him physically/mentally in the long run, I think, with the punishment he took in those last couple fights.


Also, wanted to mention this again.

Originally Posted by Duh Vuh Duh

BTW, check out E:60 that airs right before this series, also some real good stories and not necessarily the fluff that espn usually shows.

As I really liked some of the stories they did on this show right before, especially the Theo Fleury story and how in some strange way he had a weird loyalty to his abuser. He still hasn't brought charges against his abuser, but encourages children in his book to report them, thought that was a bit hypocritical.

[pjflyer]

That Ali/Holmes doc was incredibly good. I hope there is a longer version released on dvd.

[bootsy]

Can't wait for the Len Bias one. I heard there are some things in there that people really didn't know about him.

[LorenzoL]

I'm jealous. I have been reading people comments for this documentary series and I'm hoping that it will be released on DVD so I can see it for myself.

[Timber]

Loved the Colts one. I'm probably in Red Dogs age group where I remember the Colts, I remember the Colts moving in the middle of the night but I wasn't old enough to have an attachment to them so the Redskins became my team and the Ravens don't hold a place in my heart like the Skins do.

I missed the Bias one, really want to see that one. The other one I'm really looking forward to is the Tim Richmond story.

[Red Dog]

The Bias one hasn't aired yet. Tuesday night.

[Timber]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

The Bias one hasn't aired yet. Tuesday night.

OK, I saw the commercial last week so I assumed it was airing last week.

[SethDLH]

Originally Posted by catchawave

Daryl -
Art decided that the "Browns" would stay in Cleveland; history, colors, records, etc, would be there if and when they got a team. So Cleveland history is treated as one franchise with the same city but just a few years of inactivity. The Colts history is also treated as one franchise, but as Indy. Manning just passed Johnny U as the all-time Colts record holder in wins, the first game of the season I believe, it may have been a TD record or yardage record I forget. The Colts SB wins are counted as combined, not as Indy Colts 1, Baltimore Colts 1, just Colts 2. Ravens are new since 1996; no Colts records are mixed in with the Ravens stuff. That's how the NFL views it.

Now ask a Baltimorian how they view it, you saw some of that last night if you watched it. We view it as the Baltimore Colts and Baltimore Ravens as a hybrid/half-brothers/mixed breed and we don't give a shit what Manning and company do in Indy.

Art and David tried to purchase everything COLTS from the Irsay family when they moved to Baltimore in 1996, to which the Irsay's gave a firm F'U. Just for some quick notes, Bombers and Crabs were some of the other names in the running for the team. The first Ravens logo was, in court, judged to be stolen from an individual in MD who designed something very similar. They changed the logo after the court ruling and I believe that individual did receive some financial compensation after the legal proceedings.

It will be interesting to see how the first Baltimore Raven is placed in the HOF. I would expect that the be J. Ogden since he'll be retired at least 3 or 4 years before R. Lewis retires.

Yes, I'm bitter even with a NFL team back in Baltimore. You have to remember not only did the Colts leave in the "middle of the night", but during a snow storm which had most Baltimore and surrounding areas schools closed for the day. I had to sit at home that day and watch it all live on the local networks as it unfolded. I still get pissed if I see a Mayflower moving truck in the area.

Finally, man has William Donald aged in the past 2 years ...

@ the bolded: I remember also Merauders and Americans in the running as well.

also, isn't Unitas in the HoF as an Indy Colt? That has always bothered the hell out of me.

[Red Dog]

Tonight's episode: Without Bias directed by Kirk Fraser.

Len Bias still leaves more questions than answers. When Bias dropped dead two days after the 1986 NBA Draft, he forever altered our perception of casual drug use and became the tipping point of America's drug crisis in the mid-80's. Future generations continue to face the harsh punishment of drug policies that were influenced by the public outcry after his heartbreaking death. Instead of becoming an NBA star, he became a one-man deterrent, the athlete who reminded everyone just how dangerous drug use can be. Amazingly, questions still linger about his death nearly a quarter-century later. How good could he have been in the pro ranks? Has he become underrated or overrated as the years pass? How could a University of Maryland superstar and Boston Celtics lottery pick be derailed by a cocaine binge? Was Bias a one-time user as we were led to believe, or was there a pattern of recreational use that led to his fatal last night? Did he fall in with the wrong crowd? In the most ambitious, comprehensive and uncompromising account of Bias’ life and death ever captured on film, up-and-coming director Kirk Fraser utilizes dozens of interviews with Bias’ closest teammates, friends and family in an effort to determine exactly what happened on that fateful night. Maybe it wasn't as much of a fluke as we thought.

Another one near and dear to my heart. I was 15 at the time and a huge Maryland Terps fan (no NBA in Baltimore, so they were what you rooted for in basketball). To this day, he is the most talented college basketball player I've ever seen. He could do it all. At the time, when I was a big NBA fan, I rooted for the Lakers and showtime (you either rooted for Boston or L.A. if you lived in a non-NBA city), but I was ready to jump ship and flip to the Celtics simply because of Bias.

Such a waste.

[cardsfan111]

^ When I looked at the schedule for this series, this was one of my "must-sees" - I'm glad the World Series has an off day tonight, eliminating any conflict in my tv viewing. I know a few Celtics fans who took it hard when Bias passed away. For the Terps and their fans, I can't imagine the sadness that must have been felt.

[davidh777]

I was a big Celtics fan back in the day and this was really a jolt that the Big 3 era was ending. Want to see it but it'll be tough.

[bootsy]

Originally Posted by cardsfan111

^ When I looked at the schedule for this series, this was one of my "must-sees" - I'm glad the World Series has an off day tonight, eliminating any conflict in my tv viewing. I know a few Celtics fans who took it hard when Bias passed away. For the Terps and their fans, I can't imagine the sadness that must have been felt.

I hate the Celtics and I took it hard because I knew what kind of player this guy was going to be. A very good one, maybe even great. This guy had the tools similar to Jordan. You could tell he could do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted on that basketball court and you couldn't stop it. I remember that day waking up very early in the morning back when you could call this 1-800 number to get the latest sports news and scores and when I heard that news I couldn't believe what I heard. It still makes me mad we were deprived of seeing this man in the NBA.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by bootsy

I remember that day waking up very early in the morning back when you could call this 1-800 number to get the latest sports news and scores and when I heard that news I couldn't believe what I heard. It still makes me mad we were deprived of seeing this man in the NBA.

I remember exactly where I was when I learned of the news. I was with my father getting on a plane at Heathrow Airport (we had been visiting my uncle and aunt in London) heading to West Germany to visit another uncle and they were handing out the International Herald Tribune newspaper to all the passengers. By that point, I think the news was more than a day or 2 old, but they didn't report on American sports news on British tv then. My jaw just dropped when I saw the front page.

[Flashback]

I am really looking foward to the Bias story. I was (still am) a Celtic fan at that time, which would put me at 18 years old when this came out. I still wonder if he would have ever lived to the expectations that were layed upon him. Then a little less than 10 years later Reggie passed away.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by Flashback

I am really looking foward to the Bias story. I was (still am) a Celtic fan at that time which would put me at 18 years old when this came out. I still wonder if he would have ever lived to the expectaions that were layed upon him.

I definitely think he would have. He gives the Celtics a youthful shot in the arm after their great '86 season. They gamely played a superior Lakers team to 6 games in '87. With Bias, it becomes an even match. Bias probably extends Bird's career. Bias probably extends their showdowns with the Lakers to the end of the decade. The Pistons run may not happen. Then in the 90s, the Celtics could have built around him and served as a huge challenger to the Bulls.

[bootsy]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

I remember exactly where I was when I learned of the news. I was with my father getting on a plane at Heathrow Airport (we had been visiting my uncle and aunt in London) heading to West Germany to visit another uncle and they were handing out the International Herald Tribune newspaper to all the passengers. By that point, I think the news was more than a day or 2 old, but they didn't report on American sports news on British tv then. My jaw just dropped when I saw the front page.

Wow what a way to find out. I am such a sports junkie that I probably would have freaked out if I found out that way.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by bootsy

Wow what a way to find out. I am such a sports junkie that I probably would have freaked out if I found out that way.

It was about an hour flight. I don't think I said a single word on the plane. My father wasn't a sports fan at all (he thought it was absurd how much attention and money went toward American sports) so he basically had a approach to my reaction.

[davidlynchfan]

Quick question about the Len Bias case, did the Celtics had to pay anything or did the family end up receiving any contract money from this?, I'd figure no which is a major bummer on all levels for the family.

[Red Dog]

Originally Posted by davidlynchfan

Quick question about the Len Bias case, did the Celtics had to pay anything or did the family end up receiving any contract money from this?, I'd figure no which is a major bummer on all levels for the family.

It happened the day after the draft, so he had no contract yet. That being said, I seem to remember them giving something to the family - I don't know how substantial it was though.

[bootsy]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

It happened the day after the draft, so he had no contract yet. That being said, I seem to remember them giving something to the family - I don't know how substantial it was though.

I think what they should do as an extension of this is look at that draft as a whole. That was one f'ed up draft. I am a Sixers fan and I was absolutely pissed at what they did that day. They traded Moses Malone along with Terry Catledge and two first-round draft choices to the Bullets for Jeff Ruland and and Cliff Robinson. Then traded the 1st pick of the draft to Cleveland which turned out to be Brad Daugherty for Roy Hinson. So I was already in a foul mood. Then there were other players in that draft with drug problems:Chris Washburn, Roy Tarpley, and William Bedford. Some of the players in the 2nd round went on to have better careers than most picked in the 1st round: Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Duckworth, Jeff Hornacek.

[coli]

This was a pretty compelling episode about Len Bias. It was very interesting because they interviewed EVERYONE who was there that night when they partied. I have to say his parents were pretty candid too about everything, and you feel for them and what they went through.

It is amazing to see all the drug laws they made because of this incident, and how alot of them are really ridiculous 23 years later.

[Red Dog]

That was very hard to watch.....because it was so very well done. Wilbon's comment about a generation being able to date themselves to a single tragic death really hit home. If you are 50+ or under 30, it just didn't impact you.

Really captured what was going on and what the fallout of it was, particularly the inane drug policy that came out of Congress and the White House in direct reaction to Bias' death.

[Daryl]

Originally Posted by bootsy

Then there were other players in that draft with drug problems:Chris Washburn, Roy Tarpley, and William Bedford. Some of the players in the 2nd round went on to have better careers than most picked in the 1st round: Mark Price, Dennis Rodman, Kevin Duckworth, Jeff Hornacek.

Scott Skiles was another player who loved the nose-candy. Anyway, I have a "my run in with William Bedford" story. I'm at a barbershop on the west side of Detroit in like 1989 or 1990. Bedford comes struttin' in wearing a floor length leather coat with fur on it. Now, it was a Saturday morning, so it was fairly busy. I'm not sure if he expected to be put at the head of the line, or maybe he even expected someone to jump out of their chair so he could get cut (as if there were some "Pistons' 11th man on the bench" special rules or something) - but he was clearly not happy to have to wait ("aw man, that's bullshit!"). So he decides to leave - he struts toward the door trying to make an impressive exit. There was a step down right at the door, and apparently he forgot he was 7 feet tall - he smacks his head on the top of the doorway and stumbles out, clearly dazed a little. We all wait for the door to close behind him, and the whole barbershop breaks out laughing.

[Red Dog]

The irony of it all is that the Maryland basketball program benefitted greatly in the long run. It forced Lefty out (which was a raw deal) but he could never get Maryland over that hump and his best teams (the Elmore/McMillen/Lucas teams and Buck Williams/Albert King teams) were long behind him. The program then hit rock bottom under Bob Wade. But that gave them the opening to get Gary Williams who took the program to heights it had never seen before.

Without Len's death, Lefty would have stayed at Maryland well into the 90s IMO.

[Daryl]

Originally Posted by Red Dog

The irony of it all is that the Maryland basketball program benefitted greatly in the long run. It forced Lefty out (which was a raw deal) but he could never get Maryland over that hump and his best teams (the Elmore/McMillen/Lucas teams and Buck Williams/Albert King teams) were long behind him. The program then hit rock bottom under Bob Wade. But that gave them the opening to get Gary Williams who took the program to heights it had never seen before.

Without Len's death, Lefty would have stayed at Maryland well into the 90s IMO.

You know, i had the same thought last night. Like "Maryland took a hit, but then eventually got Williams - not THAT bad of a deal"