2009 NBA offseason thread

[LurkerDan]

The West is still a better conference. But at the top, the East probably has 3 of the best 5 teams in the NBA.

[fujishig]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

Whoops. I did leave out the Spurs. Still, I see no western dominance as some assert. Looks pretty equal to me and I still say that with Kobe aging, there will be more coming out of the East barring Lebron playing in the west in the future.

Duncan and the Spurs main problem is age and injury. They have not been able to stay healthy of late. I'm not sure that's going to change with more age. Duncan, the best PF in NBA history (IMHO) needs to go play with a younger focal point should he want to win more championships.

I think it's funny that you leave out Duncan and the Spurs because of "age and injury" but two of your "big 4" are Garnett and Shaq. The Celtics seems like an older group than the Spurs do, though I haven't calculated the average age or anything.

Where are the Trailblazers fans to defend their team?

And all this hate on Vince Carter on the Nets, but I'm telling you, most reports were that he was a great teammate last year, and let Devin Harris take the spotlight. I'd almost say that he and Turkoglu are about an even swap, despite what Turk meant to the team, but (most likely) losing Gortat on a team that already is lacking in bigs is a big deal.

I still say there is more talent in the West. Besides the Lakers, the playoff spots were really close, there were like 8 games separating #2 and #9. 12 games separated #3 and #4 in the East.

[WallyOPD]

By the way, here are a few prime examples of Rasheed bashing by fellow forum posters after the Gasol trade in '07-'08:

Originally Posted by fumanstan

Rasheed is far better then Pau defensively as far as I can tell. For the long haul, i'd rather have Pau but if I were trying to win in the next 2 years, Sheed is better

Originally Posted by LurkerDan

Pau is not more skilled, that's laughable, as Sheed is one of the most skilled bigs out there. And Sheed's attitude is way overblown. His teammates love him, that's how bad his attitude is. Sometimes he lets the officials get to him, and he may sometimes be infuriating to watch as a spectator, but his attitude when it comes to team is quite good.

Pau is much younger, and if we're talking long term, many people might take him. If we're talking the next couple of years, you are smoking crack if you think most knowledegable basketball folk would take him.

Originally Posted by WallyOPD

Is anyone saying Gasol isn't good? He's a very good player, he's just not the amazing player some Laker fans are making him out to be that makes them the most talented team in the league. He'll make them better and it was a great pickup for the Lakers (especially considering what they gave up). Saying he's not as good as Rasheed Wallace isn't hating.

[fumanstan]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

Whoops. I did leave out the Spurs. Still, I see no western dominance as some assert. Looks pretty equal to me and I still say that with Kobe aging, there will be more coming out of the East barring Lebron playing in the west in the future.

Duncan and the Spurs main problem is age and injury. They have not been able to stay healthy of late. I'm not sure that's going to change with more age. Duncan, the best PF in NBA history (IMHO) needs to go play with a younger focal point should he want to win more championships.

I'd say the Celtics aren't far off from the Spurs are as far as age, and KG was the one that looked like his career was about done last year. I think they have the same issues with age, so it's not too fair to count out the Spurs just yet.

To be fair though, I don't think anyone is still talking about the West being dominant. You were the one that brought it up. I think we all know it's clear that the East has 3 top tier teams, while it's only the Lakers out West, although I think the Spurs addition of Jefferson puts them up there too.

Originally Posted by Kerborus

Wrong. I have been very vocal about my displeasure with Wallace. While I have contended that when he is focused he is among the best PF's in the league I have always been unhappy about his meltdowns and his lack of focus, which progressed from the 'flip the switch' days in 2005 and 2006 and his 'Can't be bothered to join the huddle' days of 2007-2009.

I saw the Pistons in 2002 and 2003 without Wallace (every night) and I can tell you he was the one who put them at the elite level. His skills were the perfect blend for what the Pistons needed and he is a HUGE mismatch for other teams to contend with. The proof is in the pudding - once he came to Detroit, the Pistons ascended to the pantheon of the best teams that were ever assembled, not before.

Then why attack everyone else for having the same criticism of Rasheed throughout his career? While I think you're alone in believing he's an elite PF, no one here has denied that he's a very good player and capable of helping a championship team. As far as I can tell, us folks here have only been critical of his personality and mental breakdowns, but it seems clear that he can still help a team.

[fujishig]

Originally Posted by WallyOPD

By the way, here are a few prime examples of Rasheed bashing by fellow forum posters after the Gasol trade in '07-'08:

Stinking Pau bashers...

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by WallyOPD

By the way, here are a few prime examples of Rasheed bashing by fellow forum posters after the Gasol trade in '07-'08:

Nice cherry picking. You KNOW what I say is true, but you're being intellectually dishonest to suit your needs.

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by fujishig

I think it's funny that you leave out Duncan and the Spurs because of "age and injury" but two of your "big 4" are Garnett and Shaq. The Celtics seems like an older group than the Spurs do, though I haven't calculated the average age or anything.

Where are the Trailblazers fans to defend their team?

And all this hate on Vince Carter on the Nets, but I'm telling you, most reports were that he was a great teammate last year, and let Devin Harris take the spotlight. I'd almost say that he and Turkoglu are about an even swap, despite what Turk meant to the team, but (most likely) losing Gortat on a team that already is lacking in bigs is a big deal.

I still say there is more talent in the West. Besides the Lakers, the playoff spots were really close, there were like 8 games separating #2 and #9. 12 games separated #3 and #4 in the East.

Well, I put this to you then, do you think the Spurs are the odds on favorites to knock off the Lakers next year?

Vince Carter differing to Devin Harris is like Kobe Bryant differing to Trevor Ariza. Talents like Carter should lead, not follow. He has never done this and is a lazy player who jacks up ridiculous shots instead of playing fundamental ball.

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by fumanstan

I'd say the Celtics aren't far off from the Spurs are as far as age, and KG was the one that looked like his career was about done last year. I think they have the same issues with age, so it's not too fair to count out the Spurs just yet.

To be fair though, I don't think anyone is still talking about the West being dominant. You were the one that brought it up. I think we all know it's clear that the East has 3 top tier teams, while it's only the Lakers out West, although I think the Spurs addition of Jefferson puts them up there too.



Then why attack everyone else for having the same criticism of Rasheed throughout his career? While I think you're alone in believing he's an elite PF, no one here has denied that he's a very good player and capable of helping a championship team. As far as I can tell, us folks here have only been critical of his personality and mental breakdowns, but it seems clear that he can still help a team.

The Celtics have Paul Pierce, Rondo and young PF's that help the older guys (Garnett and Allen) carry the load. Garnett and Allen are two game changers, not to mention Pierce. This team is supremely more talented at this point than the injury plagued Spurs. I can easily see them winning another title. Spurs? Maybe, possibly, but not so much.

Plenty of people on this forum routinely say the West is the better conference. It was mentioned in this very thread, so not sure where you are coming from. You and I and other have debated this endlessly in the past and I say that you and others that assert this are as wrong as ever.

I'm attacking those here who are now singing the praises of Rasheed when they were utterly brutal to him while he was a Piston. Don't deny this happened, you know it did. My point is that most of you are hypocrites. If Billups were on Atari's favorite team, we'd be hearing about 'Mr. Big Shot' every day, but since he's not he denigrates him, the way the majority of the folks here denigrated Wallace.

To be clear, Wallace is no longer an elite PF, but he was in the past. Not sure how anyone can deny that...

[WallyOPD]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

Nice cherry picking. You KNOW what I say is true, but you're being intellectually dishonest to suit your needs.

How am I being intellectually dishonest? A year and a half ago you had a Lakers fan, a Celtics fan, and a Suns fan all agreeing that Rasheed Wallace is better than Pau Gasol and would be able to contribute more to a title run than Pau in the short term. You have some sort of persecution complex when it comes to the Pistons and their players where you'll blow any criticism out of proportion.

[fumanstan]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

The Celtics have Paul Pierce, Rondo and young PF's that help the older guys (Garnett and Allen) carry the load. Garnett and Allen are two game changers, not to mention Pierce. This team is supremely more talented at this point than the injury plagued Spurs. I can easily see them winning another title. Spurs? Maybe, possibly, but not so much.

In the next year or two, I'd say their chances are equal. They're trying to dump Rondo and Garnett and Allen are aging and aren't the game changers that they were 2 years ago, at least the way KG looked last year. I'll change my mind if he looks strong coming back from injury, but a lot of folks are saying it's the mileage. I'd say Duncan, Parker, Manu, and Jefferson are right up there.

Plenty of people on this forum routinely say the West is the better conference. It was mentioned in this very thread, so not sure where you are coming from. You and I and other have debated this endlessly in the past and I say that you and others that assert this are as wrong as ever.

Key word there is past. Orlando and Cleveland shot up there just last year, where they weren't a part of that elite status before. Also, saying that the east has 3 championship contenders isn't necessarily representative of the entire conference, where the West has maybe 9 playoff contenders whereas the East drops off consideriably past those 3 teams.

I'm attacking those here who are now singing the praises of Rasheed when they were utterly brutal to him while he was a Piston. Don't deny this happened, you know it did. My point is that most of you are hypocrites. If Billups were on Atari's favorite team, we'd be hearing about 'Mr. Big Shot' every day, but since he's not he denigrates him, the way the majority of the folks here denigrated Wallace.

To be clear, Wallace is no longer an elite PF, but he was in the past. Not sure how anyone can deny that...

I don't really see how we're hypocrites. People attacked the same issues that you're criticizing him for the last couple seasons, but character issues are different from recognizing he's a very good player. As Wally showed with links, we've been perfectly fine admitting what Rasheed can do on the court. We also recognize that as a person, he's giant douche. You act like everyone here hates him just because he's on the Pistons, which is retarded. It just seems like that to you because you're a Piston fan and a red light goes off when you feel like someone is attacking your team. And I don't consider Wallace an elite PF. I don't think he's on the same level as KG, Duncan, or even Dirk. I have no problems saying that at his prime, he's just a step behind them. But it doesn't mean we can't think the guy is a jackass.

[El Scorcho]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

the Pistons ascended to the pantheon of the best teams that were ever assembled, not before.

i'm giggling uncontrollably here

your penchant for hyperbole is off the charts!

[El Scorcho]

Originally Posted by fujishig

Where are the Trailblazers fans to defend their team?

Defend our team against what?

btw, why on earth are people still arguing the west vs east thing? The west has more good teams and is strong 1 through 10, while the east is more top heavy and have more stellar teams but sucks once you get past the top 3

it's been this way for a handful of years, why continue to argue it? furthermore, who gives a shit? Why is conference pride so important to some people?

[starman9000]

Originally Posted by El Scorcho

Why is conference pride so important to some people?

It's not, it just helps make people feel better about their own team not winning it all. (for years Wolves fans would cry about how they would make the finals every year, had they been in the East)

[El Scorcho]

Originally Posted by fumanstan

And I don't consider Wallace an elite PF. I don't think he's on the same level as KG, Duncan, or even Dirk. I have no problems saying that at his prime, he's just a step behind them. But it doesn't mean we can't think the guy is a jackass.

Elite power forwards want the ball in crunch time. Elite power forwards aren't afraid to be the go-to guy.

Rasheed is a wasted talent in that he has/had all the skills to be a go to guy but was too much of a headcase and too much of a pussy to assume such a role.

Guys with skill sets like Rasheed and Vince Carter but with the mail-it-in mentality when they're not happy/getting-their-way are the most irritating kind of player in the NBA because you see just enough flashes of brilliance that show you that they do have the innate gifts to be in all the "best ____ ever" lists but lack the things between the ears to make it so.

Fuck them both.

[dx23]

Former Bucks draft pick Marcus Haislip is signing with the Spurs.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/49988212.html

According to the report, his game has improved a lot in Europe.

[fujishig]

Originally Posted by El Scorcho

Defend our team against what?

btw, why on earth are people still arguing the west vs east thing? The west has more good teams and is strong 1 through 10, while the east is more top heavy and have more stellar teams but sucks once you get past the top 3

it's been this way for a handful of years, why continue to argue it? furthermore, who gives a shit? Why is conference pride so important to some people?

I mentioned the Blazers as a team that would possibly contend for the championship and Kerberos didn't even mention them in his rebuttal...

I still take issue when he says that teams not named the Lakers in the West have no shot at the title. And I'm a Lakers fan!

[El Scorcho]

well he's being realistic -- unless we make a major free agent signing or a trade to put us over the hump, Portland will only be a "pretty good" team next season

now, if Greg Oden turns into what everyone projected sometime soon, that could change somewhat, but that's obviously the biggest "if" in the world right now

I'd say Portland's realistic championship window begins 2, maybe 3 years from now depending on player improvement and personnel moves.

[JumpCutz]

Supposed rumblings that Ariza might back out of the Houston deal and sign with the Cavs. Anybody hear this?

So far it just seems like fodder on the ESPN boards.

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by El Scorcho

i'm giggling uncontrollably here

your penchant for hyperbole is off the charts!

And you penchant for assery is also off the charts. In the terms of the alll time great teams, this Pistons team is right up there. 10 straight playoff trips,6 straight ECF, 1 NBA title (2 Finals appearances) and a whole lot of playoff wins including a 64 win season (only topped by a handful of teams).

Show me what other teams and franchises have accomplished that over the same time span?

Laker, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs and??

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by WallyOPD

How am I being intellectually dishonest? A year and a half ago you had a Lakers fan, a Celtics fan, and a Suns fan all agreeing that Rasheed Wallace is better than Pau Gasol and would be able to contribute more to a title run than Pau in the short term. You have some sort of persecution complex when it comes to the Pistons and their players where you'll blow any criticism out of proportion.

Because you cherry picked your sampling. Enough said.

[Quake1028]

The five best teams in the league, clearly, at this point are in some order: Spurs, Lakers, Cavs, Magic, Celtics. And yes, the Spurs have to be considered the favorites to knock off LA, if anyone in the West will do it.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by JumpCutz

Supposed rumblings that Ariza might back out of the Houston deal and sign with the Cavs. Anybody hear this?

So far it just seems like fodder on the ESPN boards.

I would do it if I were him. The Rockets next year might not have Yao or McGrady, and won't have artest. The Cavs would be the odds on favorite to win it all if they got him and he played like he did in the playoffs this year, IMO.

[Quake1028]

Originally Posted by Kerborus

And you penchant for assery is also off the charts. In the terms of the alll time great teams, this Pistons team is right up there. 10 straight playoff trips,6 straight ECF, 1 NBA title (2 Finals appearances) and a whole lot of playoff wins including a 64 win season (only topped by a handful of teams).

Show me what other teams and franchises have accomplished that over the same time span?

Laker, Bulls, Celtics, Spurs and??

I agree that they were one of the best near dynasties ever assembled, but not close to one of the best teams ever assembled, if that makes sense.

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by fumanstan

In the next year or two, I'd say their chances are equal. They're trying to dump Rondo and Garnett and Allen are aging and aren't the game changers that they were 2 years ago, at least the way KG looked last year. I'll change my mind if he looks strong coming back from injury, but a lot of folks are saying it's the mileage. I'd say Duncan, Parker, Manu, and Jefferson are right up there.



Key word there is past. Orlando and Cleveland shot up there just last year, where they weren't a part of that elite status before. Also, saying that the east has 3 championship contenders isn't necessarily representative of the entire conference, where the West has maybe 9 playoff contenders whereas the East drops off consideriably past those 3 teams.



I don't really see how we're hypocrites. People attacked the same issues that you're criticizing him for the last couple seasons, but character issues are different from recognizing he's a very good player. As Wally showed with links, we've been perfectly fine admitting what Rasheed can do on the court. We also recognize that as a person, he's giant douche. You act like everyone here hates him just because he's on the Pistons, which is retarded. It just seems like that to you because you're a Piston fan and a red light goes off when you feel like someone is attacking your team. And I don't consider Wallace an elite PF. I don't think he's on the same level as KG, Duncan, or even Dirk. I have no problems saying that at his prime, he's just a step behind them. But it doesn't mean we can't think the guy is a jackass.

I disagree that the Celtics and SA are 'right there'. That's just me, so we agree to disagree.

The better teams are still in the East at this point. Last I checked, only 8 teams from each league get into the playoffs. So each has 8 contenders and of those 16 only 4 teams reallly have any chance and the rest is just hoping for a key injury to the other key. Why have conference pride? Why have team pride? Why follow sports at all? Cause it's fun, get over it.

Dirk is a better player? Can he defend? Not quite. Comparing Rasheed to Duncan is silly, not many people compare to Duncan, certainly not Wallace. I'd say that KG has an edge over Wallace, but they still have the same amount of titles...

I have about as big a red light as anyone else here when their team gets attacked. Let's just start saying something about the Lakers and see all the crying begin...

[Kerborus]

Originally Posted by Quake1028

I agree that they were one of the best near dynasties ever assembled, but not close to one of the best teams ever assembled, if that makes sense.

So who is better?