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Old 04-22-12, 11:35 PM   #701
LurkerDan
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

without anything more than steroid suspicion, Bagwell hasn't come close. With no suspicion, in a different era, he might not have been first ballot but he would be a lot closer.

Pudge was actually named by Canseco. I don't know whether he gets in, we will have to see how the voters continue to treat players from this era. Mike Piazza will come up long before Pudge, with similar 1st ballot numbers and similar suspicions, at the same position. If he goes 1st ballot, Pudge will too. If he doesn't come close, no way Pudge gets in first ballot. And if Piazza never gets in, Pudge better start sweating.
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Old 04-22-12, 11:54 PM   #702
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Here's some bits from an interview with Bob Costas that points out why I think steroids = no HOF won't necessarily be the case.

Quote:
DP (Dan Patrick): I don't think a Hall of Famer uses performance-enhancing drugs at any point in his career. Do you think some players who did use should get in?

BC (Costas): Your feeling, and the feelings of others, is: I don't care if you hit 800 home runs and the last year of your career you used and you were caught, you're out. I can appreciate that argument. On the other hand, I also think it's plausible for someone to make a distinction between the likes of Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens—who were clearly Hall of Famers before they ever [were accused of] juicing—and someone like Sammy Sosa or Mark McGwire, who I don't think would have had Hall of Fame credentials had they not used steroids.

DP: Is Barry Bonds a Hall of Famer?

BC: After withholding the vote the first couple of times, yes. I would vote for him eventually.

DP: Roger Clemens?

BC: Same deal.

DP: Mark McGwire?

BC: No.

DP: Sammy Sosa?

BC: No.

DP: There's no hard evidence that Sosa used.

BC: Yes, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. You have to make a distinction between a court of law and the standards of evidence there. But in the court of public opinion you have more than enough information to reach a reasonable and fair conclusion that Sammy Sosa's performance was not authentic.

DP: Alex Rodriguez?

BC: My feeling is that, as long as nothing additional surfaces, the overall body of work will be good enough that he could get the benefit of the doubt—and you could say even without that he could achieve Hall of Fame status. You get into a different situation with a guy like Rodriguez, who will have a long career where he's apparently putting up Hall of Fame quality performances poststeroids.

DP: But with A-Rod we have real evidence.

BC: If someone doesn't want to vote for A-Rod, I wouldn't say they're wrong. But I'm inclined to vote for him because you could say that a portion of what he did was influenced by performance-enhancing drugs, but pretty clearly he would have been a Hall of Famer without them in any era.
I think the guys who are going to get punished are the sluggers, whose power numbers are suspect and/or devalued. Ivan Rodriguez only hit 30+ HRs once, and he'd be a HOFer even if you disregard that season. His defense is a strong part of his case anyway, so he will be seen as a player that would have been a HOFer without steroids.
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Old 04-23-12, 09:01 AM   #703
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Bob Costas - walking contradictory hypocrite. With a bad toupee.
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Old 04-23-12, 09:22 AM   #704
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

It's very hard to say who is a first ballot hall of famer anymore with the backload of players that are and will continue to be on the ballot. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point there are twenty players on one ballot that eventually make it into the baseball hall of fame.
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Old 04-23-12, 10:07 AM   #705
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by BrewCrew View Post
It's very hard to say who is a first ballot hall of famer anymore with the backload of players that are and will continue to be on the ballot. It wouldn't surprise me if at some point there are twenty players on one ballot that eventually make it into the baseball hall of fame.
Obviously, pitchers aren't exempt from the suspicion of steroids, but I can see them being treated differently in the HOF balloting. I'm convinced Greg Maddux will be a slam dunk first ballot guy. He's the only guy I'm sure about over the next 2 years.
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Old 04-23-12, 11:08 AM   #706
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Brian Dawkins who played 16 seasons with the Eagles and Broncos retired today.

First team All-NFL four times and was an eight time Pro Bowler.


37 career interceptions and 1,131 tackles, including 26 sacks.


Does he get in?
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Old 04-23-12, 11:15 AM   #707
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by cardsfan111 View Post
Obviously, pitchers aren't exempt from the suspicion of steroids, but I can see them being treated differently in the HOF balloting. I'm convinced Greg Maddux will be a slam dunk first ballot guy. He's the only guy I'm sure about over the next 2 years.
I fully expect him to be the first-ever unanimous first ballot Hall of Fame inductee. I can't imagine anyone having a knock against that guy. I've met him a couple of times and I can't imagine a nicer, more humble celebrity, let alone a living legend.
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Old 04-23-12, 11:25 AM   #708
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by LurkerDan View Post
without anything more than steroid suspicion, Bagwell hasn't come close. With no suspicion, in a different era, he might not have been first ballot but he would be a lot closer.

Pudge was actually named by Canseco. I don't know whether he gets in, we will have to see how the voters continue to treat players from this era. Mike Piazza will come up long before Pudge, with similar 1st ballot numbers and similar suspicions, at the same position. If he goes 1st ballot, Pudge will too. If he doesn't come close, no way Pudge gets in first ballot. And if Piazza never gets in, Pudge better start sweating.
But Piazza was more known for his offense and power, which others have already mentioned are the kinds of signs of steroid use most people look for. He certainly wouldn't get in on defensive numbers alone. Besides playing the same position, I don't see how Piazza's chances affect Pudge at all.
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Old 04-23-12, 11:49 AM   #709
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I fully expect him to be the first-ever unanimous first ballot Hall of Fame inductee. I can't imagine anyone having a knock against that guy. I've met him a couple of times and I can't imagine a nicer, more humble celebrity, let alone a living legend.
Unfortunately, there are apparently a few writers that will not vote anyone in on the first ballot. Because Ruth, Cobb, etc. weren't unanimous, nobody deserves it.
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Old 04-23-12, 12:12 PM   #710
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by Drexl View Post
Unfortunately, there are apparently a few writers that will not vote anyone in on the first ballot. Because Ruth, Cobb, etc. weren't unanimous, nobody deserves it.
I'll go out on a limb and say Maddox was even nicer than Cobb.

But seriously, of course it's absurd that legends like Ruth and Gehrig weren't unanimous selections, but in this age of media scrutiny it's harder to hide behind a clearly wrong decision.
Ricky Henderson, clearly deserving but kind of a jerk, got 95%. That's why I think Maddox could be the first to 100%. But then again, I wouldn't be shocked if there was one or two assholes who don't do their job right and will flat-out refuse to vote for anyone on the first ballot despite their obvious qualifications.
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Old 04-23-12, 06:58 PM   #711
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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I'll go out on a limb and say Maddox was even nicer than Cobb.
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Old 04-23-12, 11:21 PM   #712
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenshiro View Post
Brian Dawkins who played 16 seasons with the Eagles and Broncos retired today.

First team All-NFL four times and was an eight time Pro Bowler.


37 career interceptions and 1,131 tackles, including 26 sacks.


Does he get in?
I don't think he does and definitely not before Steve Atwater,might as well put Darren Woodson and Ronde Barber in as well. Dawkins had a nice career but HOF worthy? No.
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Old 04-24-12, 10:53 AM   #713
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Hall of the Very Good.
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Old 04-24-12, 11:47 AM   #714
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decker View Post
I'll go out on a limb and say Maddox was even nicer than Cobb.

But seriously, of course it's absurd that legends like Ruth and Gehrig weren't unanimous selections, but in this age of media scrutiny it's harder to hide behind a clearly wrong decision.
Ricky Henderson, clearly deserving but kind of a jerk, got 95%. That's why I think Maddox could be the first to 100%. But then again, I wouldn't be shocked if there was one or two assholes who don't do their job right and will flat-out refuse to vote for anyone on the first ballot despite their obvious qualifications.
Nolan Ryan fell six votes short of unanimous. Seaver was five votes short. My guess is that Maddux probably falls three shy... which will be a travesty.
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Old 04-24-12, 11:58 AM   #715
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

And those who don't vote for him should instantly be stripped of voting rights...if they want to hold the players to such high standards, their fellow voters should hold them to high standards as well.
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Old 04-24-12, 12:03 PM   #716
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

I think he has a better chance at being unanimous than anyone before him. While players are being condemned for being on steroids/being under the suspicion of steroids.. maybe they'll reward Maddux for dominating during the era and staying far away from any suspicion.
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Old 04-24-12, 12:40 PM   #717
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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I think he has a better chance at being unanimous than anyone before him. While players are being condemned for being on steroids/being under the suspicion of steroids.. maybe they'll reward Maddux for dominating during the era and staying far away from any suspicion.
...by being a 98-lb. weakling
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Old 04-26-12, 03:23 PM   #718
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Originally Posted by Mordred View Post
Nolan Ryan fell six votes short of unanimous. Seaver was five votes short. My guess is that Maddux probably falls three shy... which will be a travesty.
I don't really know enough about Seaver as a pitcher to know how egregious the lack of unanimous approval was, but as far as Ryan goes, there were enough semi-legit nit-picks (only two 20-win seasons, no Cy Youngs, no Top-10 MVPs, just-above .500 W-L ratio) to keep him from being a unanimous choice.

What potential criticism could any voter have against Maddux? No No-hitters, I suppose, but that's really reaching. He was clearly the most dominant pitcher of his era and one of the finest control pitcher of all time. If he doesn't get 100%, I don't think anyone ever does (Jeter and Mariano Rivera should, but probably won't).
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Old 04-26-12, 05:30 PM   #719
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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What potential criticism could any voter have against Maddux? No No-hitters, I suppose, but that's really reaching. He was clearly the most dominant pitcher of his era and one of the finest control pitcher of all time. If he doesn't get 100%, I don't think anyone ever does (Jeter and Mariano Rivera should, but probably won't).
I completely agree with you. Maddux has been my favorite pitcher since I first saw him pitch early in that amazing '88 season for the Cubs and it always made me feel cool that I liked him before any of hit impressive awards and accolades.

The crazy thing is that Maddux is actually underrated:
Quote:
In his 2009 book, "The Annual Baseball Gold Mine" baseball statistics guru Bill James found Maddux to be far and away the most underrated player in baseball history. The methodology for this included the fact that though Maddux only won 20 games twice, he five times won 19 games. He also had only one season of 200 or more strikeouts but had seasons of 199, 198 and 197 respectively which diminished his reputation as a strikeout pitcher. In addition to that James also argued that although he had 18 seasons of 200 or more innings pitched, he also had three seasons of 199.1, 198 and 194 innings pitched.
You're right; if he isn't unanimous, nobody is going to be.
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Old 04-26-12, 05:38 PM   #720
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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You're right; if he isn't unanimous, nobody is going to be.
Nobody is going to be, that has already been determined, Maddux not getting 100% wouldn't be a bigger slight than countless others before him.
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Old 04-26-12, 08:15 PM   #721
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Nobody is going to be, that has already been determined, Maddux not getting 100% wouldn't be a bigger slight than countless others before him.
This. Take a look at Seaver's page: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...eaveto01.shtml The fact that he -- and many other deserving -- were not unanimous says it all.
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Old 04-27-12, 03:42 PM   #722
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Pretty sure neither Yogi Berra nor Johnny Bench retired today.
Glad I wasn't the only one thinking the same thing.
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Old 05-19-12, 09:37 AM   #723
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Kerry Wood: First-ballot entry in the Hall of What Might Have Been
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Old 05-19-12, 12:27 PM   #724
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

Along with Mark Prior, Grant Hill, and Bo Jackson, yes?
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Old 05-19-12, 01:07 PM   #725
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Re: Play a game with me. Hall of Famer or not?

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Along with Mark Prior, Grant Hill, and Bo Jackson, yes?
Grant Hill looks like Jamie Moyer on that list
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