Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Adult DVD Reviews | Video Game Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Sports Talk

Sports Talk Discuss all things Sports Related

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-26-05, 06:02 AM   #1
johnglass
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Just north of Atlanta
Posts: 5,215
Harry Carson tells Hall of Fame "Thanks, but no thanks"

Carson Tells Hall, Thanks but No Thanks


LINEBACKERS must be tough and smart, but over his 13 majestic seasons with the Giants, Harry Carson was always more thoughtful than most, more introspective, more sensitive. In the best sense of the word, he was different.

And as this year's vote for the Pro Football Hall of Fame approaches, he is indeed different: the first candidate to request that his name be removed from consideration for induction into the Hall in Canton, Ohio. In each of the previous five years, he was among the 15 finalists discussed by the panel of 39 pro football writers and broadcasters, but he was not selected for induction.

"I've been through this long enough," Carson said Monday evening in a telephone interview. "It has to do with my own pride and what I think about myself. What was an honor is now a burden."

The Hall of Fame has not granted Carson's request. According to John Bankert, its executive director, "There is no provision in our system to remove a candidate." And since Carson, who was voted to nine Pro Bowls by his peers, is again among the 15 finalists, he will be voted upon at a meeting in Jacksonville, Fla., on Feb. 5, the day before Super Bowl XXXIX.

Carson's request, which he made in a letter to Bankert last March, could hurt him with some voters but help him with others.

Of this year's 15 finalists, two first-year-eligible players, quarterbacks Dan Marino and Steve Young, appear to be shoo-ins. But Carson's credentials, with seven All-Pro seasons (two on bad Giants teams before Lawrence Taylor arrived), are as solid, if not better, than any of the other candidates.

Suppose Carson were to receive the required 80 percent of the vote for induction?

"As far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed," he said firmly. "By taking this action, I know I'm cutting my throat, but to go back would be hypocritical. This is about wanting to live my life and not being linked to the Hall of Fame. I don't have a problem with the Hall of Fame; it's the process. I'm not angry. It's not sour grapes. I'm not bitter."

He's just different.

Over the years, other candidates for the Hall of Fame endured rejection before eventually being selected, some for many more years than Carson has. Lynn Swann, the Steelers' acrobatic wide receiver on their four Super Bowl championship teams, went through 14 consecutive years as a finalist before being inducted. Carl Eller, a member of the Vikings' Purple People Eaters defensive line, was finally voted in a year ago after 20 years of eligibility.

Among the other finalists this year, L. C. Greenwood, a Steelers defensive end on those four Super Bowl teams, and Claude Humphrey, a former Falcons pass rusher, are in their 19th year of eligibility. Roger Wehrli, once a Cardinals cornerback, is in his 18th year, and Bob Kuechenberg, a guard on the unbeaten 1972 Dolphins, is in his 12th year. But with each turndown, those candidates have shrugged and looked ahead to the next year's vote.

Carson is different; he became tired of having to look ahead.

"At the gathering of Giants linebackers last Friday night at the Grand Hyatt," he said, "Frank Gifford introduced me by saying, 'This man should be in the Hall of Fame.' I've heard that wherever I go. In Paris. In the Caribbean. The other day in the Stop & Shop, a man recognized me and told me, 'You should be in the Hall of Fame.' This has somewhat become my legacy - a legacy I don't want."

Carson mentioned that the actress Susan Lucci was nominated for an Emmy for 18 years before she won one in 1999, and that Rod Stewart has never won a Grammy.

"Some people are angry that I'm doing this," he said. "They've told me I'm selfish and arrogant, but I say, 'Wait a minute, this is my life.' I don't feel what those people think what I should feel, because I live with it every day."

Carson recalled how Bill Parcells, the coach of the 1986 Giants team that won Super Bowl XXI, told him "to hang in there" about the Hall of Fame "because those who played with and against you know that you belong there."

Of the 15 finalists in 2000, the first year Carson was up for a vote, 14 were eventually inducted. He made it to the final six in 2003, but he did not get that far last year.

"I went through this for my family and friends, because it meant so much to them, and when I didn't get in, they cried," he said. "But requesting that my name be removed was for me."

"The pride I have is the same pride that Walter Payton had, that Jerry Rice has - coming out of a black college," he added, referring to South Carolina State, "and making it in the N.F.L. But every year I didn't make the Hall of Fame, the word 'loser' was attached to my name."

Maybe that's what has hurt Harry Carson most of all. Even on those bad Giants teams, he was never a loser. Then and now, he's just been different.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 09:10 AM   #2
Mutley Hyde
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Texas! Damn right.
Posts: 11,089
Everybody's gotta protest somethin'.
__________________
"Africa is worth fighting for. Europe, in its present form, is not." Tony Blair
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 10:03 AM   #3
LurkerDan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 18,389
He SHOULD be in the HoF.
__________________
"I have dictionary facts to support me." - art

"we get paid for butt time" - mosquitobite

"It felt much more comfortable when I was trying them on. No sharp edge poking my skin." - Buford T. Pusser
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 11:03 AM   #4
Lateralus
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Lateralus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Valley of Megiddo
Posts: 9,533
So should LC Greenwood.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 01:33 PM   #5
pdutta2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 619
Good for Harry Carson. Those stupid Hall of Fame voting rules need to be changed.

On another note...why is Steve Young a shoo-in for the Hall? Does he hold some records that I don't know about or are his stats as a whole that good.
__________________
Pritam
http://www.spdutta.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 01:46 PM   #6
Pharoh
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Sad day in Ohio
Posts: 23,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdutta2000
Good for Harry Carson. Those stupid Hall of Fame voting rules need to be changed.

On another note...why is Steve Young a shoo-in for the Hall? Does he hold some records that I don't know about or are his stats as a whole that good.

His stats on the whole are that good. He was dominant for the 8 seasons during the 1990s in which he started at least ten games. How he actually played also greatly contributes to him being a lock for induction.


Another for Harry Carson.
__________________
Catalunya no és Espanya
9N2014
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 02:43 PM   #7
El Scorcho
DVD Talk Hero
 
El Scorcho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 39,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdutta2000
Good for Harry Carson. Those stupid Hall of Fame voting rules need to be changed.

On another note...why is Steve Young a shoo-in for the Hall? Does he hold some records that I don't know about or are his stats as a whole that good.
Holds NFL career records for
highest completion percentage -- 64.3;
highest passer rating -- 96.8;
most seasons leading league in touchdown passes -- 4;
and most consecutive seasons leading league in passer rating -- 4 (1991-1994).

Holds NFL record for most consecutive games with 300 or more yards passing -- 6 (September 6-October 18, 1998).

Holds NFL single-season record for highest passer rating -- 112.8 (1994).

POST SEASON RECORDS: Holds Super Bowl single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares Super Bowl single-game record for most passes attempted without an interception -- 36 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares NFL postseason single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 03:05 PM   #8
VinVega
Administrator
 
VinVega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Formerly sane and well adjusted
Posts: 25,823

__________________
It is one of the blessings of old friends that you can afford to be stupid with them. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 03:09 PM   #9
wildcatlh
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Work. Or commuting. Certainly not at home.
Posts: 17,816
I dunno. Part of Carson's message is commendable, and part makes it seem like he's acting like a whiny, impatient 3-year old (you won't let me in when I want, so I'll take my ball and go home).

The rules are silly, but he's acting silly too.
__________________
"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 03:16 PM   #10
johnglass
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Just north of Atlanta
Posts: 5,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Scorcho
Holds NFL career records for
highest completion percentage -- 64.3;
highest passer rating -- 96.8;
most seasons leading league in touchdown passes -- 4;
and most consecutive seasons leading league in passer rating -- 4 (1991-1994).

Holds NFL record for most consecutive games with 300 or more yards passing -- 6 (September 6-October 18, 1998).

Holds NFL single-season record for highest passer rating -- 112.8 (1994).

POST SEASON RECORDS: Holds Super Bowl single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares Super Bowl single-game record for most passes attempted without an interception -- 36 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares NFL postseason single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Stats, shmats- what has he done for me lately?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 03:21 PM   #11
LurkerDan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 18,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Scorcho
Holds NFL career records for
highest completion percentage -- 64.3;
highest passer rating -- 96.8;
most seasons leading league in touchdown passes -- 4;
and most consecutive seasons leading league in passer rating -- 4 (1991-1994).

Holds NFL record for most consecutive games with 300 or more yards passing -- 6 (September 6-October 18, 1998).

Holds NFL single-season record for highest passer rating -- 112.8 (1994).

POST SEASON RECORDS: Holds Super Bowl single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares Super Bowl single-game record for most passes attempted without an interception -- 36 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares NFL postseason single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).
He no longer holds some of these records...
__________________
"I have dictionary facts to support me." - art

"we get paid for butt time" - mosquitobite

"It felt much more comfortable when I was trying them on. No sharp edge poking my skin." - Buford T. Pusser
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 04:04 PM   #12
Timber
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 8,908
Art Monk not getting in vs Micheal Irvin being called a sure first balloter tells me all I need to know about the HOF
__________________
"That's why the Black Guys like me"- Alison BB4
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 07:13 PM   #13
LurkerDan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 18,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber
Art Monk not getting in vs Micheal Irvin being called a sure first balloter tells me all I need to know about the HOF
Who said that about Irvin? I don't actually expect him to get in.

And while I believe Monk deserves to get in, Irvin was probably the best receiver in football for a few years, not sure you could ever say that about Monk.
__________________
"I have dictionary facts to support me." - art

"we get paid for butt time" - mosquitobite

"It felt much more comfortable when I was trying them on. No sharp edge poking my skin." - Buford T. Pusser
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 08:33 PM   #14
Timber
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 8,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkerDan
Who said that about Irvin? I don't actually expect him to get in.

And while I believe Monk deserves to get in, Irvin was probably the best receiver in football for a few years, not sure you could ever say that about Monk.
From what I hear they say he's lock first ballot. Peter King seems to think so.

Irvin- 750 Rec, 11,904 yds, 15.9 per rec, 65 TD's
Monk- 940 Rec, 12,721 yds, 13.5 per rec, 68 TD's
Swan- 336 Rec, 5462 yds, 16.3 per rec, 51 TD's
Lofton- 764 Rec, 14, 004 yds, 18.3 per rec, 75 TD's
__________________
"That's why the Black Guys like me"- Alison BB4
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 08:36 PM   #15
wildcatlh
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Work. Or commuting. Certainly not at home.
Posts: 17,816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber
From what I hear they say he's lock first ballot. Peter King seems to think so.

Irvin- 750 Rec, 11,904 yds, 15.9 per rec, 65 TD's
Monk- 940 Rec, 12,721 yds, 13.5 per rec, 68 TD's
Swan- 336 Rec, 5462 yds, 16.3 per rec, 51 TD's
Lofton- 764 Rec, 14, 004 yds, 18.3 per rec, 75 TD's
Monk was in the NFL for 16 seasons. Irvin was in for what... 11? That's one of the problems I have with Monk -- alot of his numbers are pure longetivity numbers, since if you look season-by-season, he has only 3 or 4 really good-great seasons.
__________________
"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 08:39 PM   #16
Dr_Evil
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Dr_Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: the igloo
Posts: 6,531
Here's an exerpt from a MMQB SI article by Peter King about Art Monk that might be of interest:

QUOTE OF THE WEEK

"It's legalized theft, a crime, that Art Monk is not in the Hall of Fame. Those voters ought to be absolutely ashamed of themselves.''

-- ESPN football analyst Sean Salisbury.

POSTSCRIPT TO QUOTE OF THE WEEK

I'm one of the voters, Sean. And I'm not ashamed at all. Over the past few years, there's been significant outrage over Monk not getting into the Hall of Fame. Salisbury's feelings are shared by many. Mel Kiper has raked me over the coals a time or two on this one. How can the 39 guys who sit in judgment of the merit of retired players think that Monk didn't do enough to earn a spot in the Hall of Fame, particularly when he had more receptions than any of the 17 current receivers enshrined in the Hall?

Since I get a lot of mail on this particular issue every year, I want to spend a couple of minutes going over Monk's case. At the end, you may think I'm wrong, but at least you'll know my reasoning.

It's a complicated situation, at least from my standpoint, but I'll start by explaining a couple of things about the voting system. Monk is one of the 15 finalists for the Hall this year, as he has been the last several years. We elect a minimum of three and a maximum of six to the Hall each year. There is a winnowing process that cuts the list to six in the room, and then the 39 voters are asked to vote yes or no on the final six. To make it, a player either has to have 80 percent of the vote, or in the event that fewer than three get 80 percent of the vote, the players with the most votes up to three are then elected. And so, if Monk makes it to the final six, basically, he needs to have at least 31 of the voters go his way. Eight no votes can squash a finalist, and obviously, he's had at least eight no votes every year he's come before the board of selectors. I am certainly not the gatekeeper. I have voted yes on Monk when the Hall asks us to cut the list from 25, and then to 15, in advance of the meeting, because I do think he is worthy of discussion, and I think he's one of 15 most deserving candidates in a given year -- which is different from thinking he's a Hall of Famer. But I have voted no on Monk each year he has gotten to the final six. These are the reasons:

1. I think numbers should be considered significant, but shouldn't be the god of election to the Hall. And they should be put in perspective. This says everything about why statistics alone shouldn't put people in the Hall of Fame: The year Jerry Rice entered football, 1985, there were four players with 600 career catches in NFL history. Today there are 34. Monk led the NFL in receptions with 940 when he retired after the 1995 season. Since then, four receivers have passed him. One of them is Andre Reed, who I also consider to be a marginal Hall-of-Famer. In the next few years, others will get into the 900 range: Marvin Harrison, Isaac Bruce, Jimmy Smith, maybe even Keenan McCardell (755 now, and he wants to play two or three more years). Think of the receivers who haven't turned 32 yet who could get to 900ville: Terrell Owens (31, 669 catches), Eric Moulds (31, 594), Muhsin Muhammad (31, 578), Randy Moss (27, 574). Torry Holt's 28. He's got 517. Four more years in that offense, and he's in Monk's neighborhood statwise. In other words, in the 30-year window between 1980 and 2010, a dozen guys, or more, could pass 900 catches. We can't elect them all. There has to be some positional integrity to the Hall of Fame. I believe that Redskins-era team, for instance, should have three offensive Hall-of-Famers: Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby and John Riggins (though Riggins was obviously on the early side of that era), along with the offensive mastermind, Joe Gibbs. Two are in now. I hope at least one of the linemen makes it.

2. Monk was about the fourth-most dangerous skill player on those teams. I covered the New York Giants for Newsday from 1985-'88, and I remember covering a lot of those great Giants-Redskins games. And the guys in that locker room really respected Monk as a consistent player who gave a great effort on every play. But they feared Gary Clark. To a lesser degree, they feared Ricky Sanders. And they feared the run game, whoever was toting it on that particular day. If you stopped the run, and you stopped the fast, quick guys on the outside, the Giants felt, you'd beat the Redskins every time. I started covering the NFL in 1984, and I saw much of Monk's career. Some of what he did was unseen and important to the success of that offense. He was an excellent blocker downfield. That helps his candidacy. It doesn't get it over the top, at least not to me.

3. Monk was the not considered one of the very best receivers of his era either by his peers or the media. He played 16 years. Twice he made the AP's All-Pro Team, which honors the top two receivers in football. He never made the second-team. So twice in 16 years the media considered Monk to have had one of the top four seasons by a receiver in football. Three times he was named to the Pro Bowl. That means three times in 16 years his peers thought he'd had one of the top four seasons by a receiver in the NFC. Those facts are significant to me. We're saying no to guys who made 10 Pro Bowls. Mick Tinglehoff was an All-Pro center seven times, more than any center in history, and five times more than enshrinee Jim Langer ... and that guy can't come close. Think of it this way: Eight wide receivers go to the Pro Bowl every year. In three of 16 NFL seasons Monk was judged to be one of the top eight. Is a Hall of Fame player one considered one of the top eight at his job three times in 16 seasons?

One of the interesting things this time of year is listening to the passion of people advocating for their favorites for the Hall of Fame. I respect the opinions of the Monk side very much, but I don't believe he was a Hall of Fame football player. I just thought you'd like to know the feelings of one of the 39 people in that room.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 09:29 PM   #17
Timber
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 8,908
Steve Czaban Response

Try Again, Pete
Peter King has issued a lengthy, yet unconvincing defense of his stonewalling of Art Monk as a HOF inductee. Never mind the fact that Monk has more career catches than ALL 17 of the current WR’s in the Hall, that doesn’t matter. Let me excerpt King’s key points, and lay them out like Ronnie Lott would a receiver coming over the middle. King’s points, paraphrased.

1) Monk has numbers, but that shouldn’t be the holy grail of hall induction. Plus, King says, look at all the receivers who are ON PACE to end up with 900 plus catches. REBUTTAL: Who cares about what players NOW, or in the FUTURE are going to post in terms of numbers? What matters, is statistical relevance to ERA in which the player played. The game changes, and evolves, and teams became much more passing dominant because of rules changes, television, improved fields, and all kinds of things. Art Monk RETIRED with the All-Time catch record, the single season catch record, and the consecutive game catch record. What should he do, Peter? Unretire now, and try to keep up with the “modern” NFL numbers at WR? King implies that we have to “reserve” some spots for guys with modern numbers, like Isaac Bruce. Holy shit. Let’s screw Monk out of the Hall, to save a spot for this fumbling, turf-system specialist! Illogic in, illogic out.

2) King also says that HE personally covered the Giants from 85-88, and that Monk was not the most “feared” playmaker at the time according to the Giants. REBUTTAL: This is a stupid, typical King ANECDOTE, that is wholly personal in nature, and not the least bit analytical or FACT based. (Much like his coffeehouse anecdotes). It hardly bears comment. But since we are here, let me make this point. Ask any team that played the Redskins, who the LAST guy they wanted to see even SLIGHTLY open on 3rd down? Um, that would be #81, a guy who had hands of velvet, and repeatedly kept the Skins offense on the field by making catches that other receivers might have dropped.

3) King’s final point, is that Monk only made two AP All-Pro teams in his 16 years. REBUTTAL: Great point, Pete. John Riggins only made ONE Pro Bowl! Now, what was your point again? Furthermore, King makes a fatal mathematical error when he says that “8 wide receivers go to the Pro Bowl every year. Is a Hall of Fame player one considered one of the top eight at his job three times in 16 seasons?” MORE REACT: Dear field hockey boy. Art Monk was only eligible for one of FOUR spots in the NFC each year, not 8, dingaling! Certainly Monk might have been voted in ahead of the 3rd AFC WR, but he wasn’t eligible! Sheesh!
__________________
"That's why the Black Guys like me"- Alison BB4
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 09:45 PM   #18
Dr_Evil
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Dr_Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: the igloo
Posts: 6,531
Yeah I didn't think King had much of an argument. Thought it might interest some though.

  Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-05, 10:50 PM   #19
nickdawgy
DVD Talk Hero
 
nickdawgy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-nee
Posts: 25,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by El Scorcho
Holds NFL career records for
highest completion percentage -- 64.3;
highest passer rating -- 96.8;
most seasons leading league in touchdown passes -- 4;
and most consecutive seasons leading league in passer rating -- 4 (1991-1994).

Holds NFL record for most consecutive games with 300 or more yards passing -- 6 (September 6-October 18, 1998).

Holds NFL single-season record for highest passer rating -- 112.8 (1994).

POST SEASON RECORDS: Holds Super Bowl single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares Super Bowl single-game record for most passes attempted without an interception -- 36 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).

Shares NFL postseason single-game record for most touchdown passes -- 6 (January 29, 1995, vs. San Diego).
Steve Young was awesome, my all-time favorite QB. I think his single season passer rating record was broken by Peyton Manning this year. Not sure what other records were broken.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 08:35 AM   #20
pdutta2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 619
Thanks for the Steve Young numbers. I knew he was good and I loved watching him. I just didn't realize he did all that.

Now, on to that Fat Jackass Peter King. He is exactly what's wrong with the Hall of Fame process or Figure Skating or Gymnastics, etc. You have jackasses like him who've never played the sport judging how great someone is. Art Monk not being inducted is a travesty above all travesties and I'm just saying that cause I'm a Redskins fan . The Skins at that point in time were a run team...that's all they did. They ran. Then they ran some more. And if it happened to be 3rd and 10...they ran it again. Now, you have King saying that Monk should be compared to Isaac Bruce?!? Who gets more balls thrown at him then the Redskins might have attempted all game?!?! Total garbage.
__________________
Pritam
http://www.spdutta.com

Last edited by pdutta2000; 01-27-05 at 10:03 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 08:43 AM   #21
wildcatlh
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Work. Or commuting. Certainly not at home.
Posts: 17,816
But the HOF is about inducting the best of the best, right? The Pro Bowl notwithstanding, there's only about 4 years where I could honestly say that Monk was one of the top few WRs in the league. And that's not a long enough time period to put him in the HOF, IMO.
__________________
"An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 10:09 AM   #22
Timber
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 8,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatLH
But the HOF is about inducting the best of the best, right? The Pro Bowl notwithstanding, there's only about 4 years where I could honestly say that Monk was one of the top few WRs in the league. And that's not a long enough time period to put him in the HOF, IMO.
Who was a better reciever in the same era? He retired as the all time leading pass catcher in history. That has to account for something. 3 Superbowl rings have to count for something else. Look at who he caught passes from. Something like 10 different quarterbacks. Irvin had Aikmen. Who did Monk have?
__________________
"That's why the Black Guys like me"- Alison BB4
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 10:17 AM   #23
LurkerDan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 18,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildcatLH
But the HOF is about inducting the best of the best, right? The Pro Bowl notwithstanding, there's only about 4 years where I could honestly say that Monk was one of the top few WRs in the league. And that's not a long enough time period to put him in the HOF, IMO.
That is certainly the argument that says Irvin gets in but Monk doesn't.

I will say this, as a Cowboys and Giants fan during Monk's era (weird, I know), I hated the Redskins. And the guy who I feared on the Skins more than any other, King's opinion aside, was Monk. He was the guy who would beat my team, who would put a dagger in my heart.

I do think he should be in, personally. I think this point is hard to argue with: Art Monk RETIRED with the All-Time catch record, the single season catch record, and the consecutive game catch record.

Add 3 rings to that and what argument stands up against the guy?
__________________
"I have dictionary facts to support me." - art

"we get paid for butt time" - mosquitobite

"It felt much more comfortable when I was trying them on. No sharp edge poking my skin." - Buford T. Pusser
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 10:20 AM   #24
LurkerDan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The People's Republic of Boulder
Posts: 18,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timber
Who was a better reciever in the same era? He retired as the all time leading pass catcher in history. That has to account for something. 3 Superbowl rings have to count for something else. Look at who he caught passes from. Something like 10 different quarterbacks. Irvin had Aikmen. Who did Monk have?
There were receivers who were considered better, I'd have to do my research on that. As for the QB, well, many here and elsewhere say Aikman was overrated. But I also hear that Irvin was overrated, as was Emmit, so I'm not sure how each of those overrated players managed to do so well...


And don't sell Monk's QBs short, they weren't that bad. In fact, there were some very good ones in there, just not HoF quality.
__________________
"I have dictionary facts to support me." - art

"we get paid for butt time" - mosquitobite

"It felt much more comfortable when I was trying them on. No sharp edge poking my skin." - Buford T. Pusser
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-05, 10:26 AM   #25
CRM114
DVD Talk Hero
 
CRM114's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 37,705
Carson is acting like a child.
__________________
We are 138
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 AM.

Rules - DVD Talk - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0
Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.