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Old 12-08-03, 10:49 AM   #1
bishop2knight
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Should the Braves get rid of Cox?

So, the Braves didn't offer arbitration for, and are thus losing, Maddux, Shefield, and Lopez. And from comments I've read from John Smoltz, the Braves are planning on doing some house cleaning.

My question is about Bobby Cox. I the Braves make the playoffs all the time but lose the big games, couldn't that be a fault attributed to the skipper? Maybe new management could help the team actually do something in the post season.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-08-03, 10:59 AM   #2
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Re: Should the Braves get rid of Cox?

Quote:
Originally posted by James W. Powell
So, the Braves didn't offer arbitration for, and are thus losing, Maddux, Shefield, and Lopez. And from comments I've read from John Smoltz, the Braves are planning on doing some house cleaning.

My question is about Bobby Cox. I the Braves make the playoffs all the time but lose the big games, couldn't that be a fault attributed to the skipper? Maybe new management could help the team actually do something in the post season.

Thoughts?
1) Cox has proven that, regardless, of the make-up of the team, he wins. That is an attribute that few managers share. I wouldn't want to see Cox leave, as I think that the bats going silent isn't something that he can completely control. Who out there could do a better job? Okay, besides Torre?

2) Yes, I giggled at the thread title.
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Old 12-08-03, 11:12 AM   #3
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No. I seriously doubt there's anyone who could do a better job. People fault the Braves for making the playoffs so frequently and not winning more World Series but forget that they haven't been the best team all those years. There have only been a few times when they were really good enough to go all the way. Against the Twins and Blue Jays they did everything imaginable to try to win without stellar talent, and they got caught up in the Yankees juggernaut a couple of times as well as being bitten by the short-series format after the wild card. Have they underachieved? Yeah. Has it been as drastic as many make it to be? Hardly. Give credit to some of the teams that beat them. They haven't sucked every postseason ... sometimes they've simply been beaten even after great play.

How many seasons begin with the "experts" predicting the Braves won't make the playoffs? Cox still finds a way to get them there after some pretty significant roster changes. Yes, the skipper should be responsible for the performance of his team, but there's only so much the guy can do. Sooner or later, the players have to perform. Given the personnel they've had over the last decade and the way they've been hit with injuries some years, I can't imagine anyone other than Torre (if even him) could have done any better.

Firing Cox would certainly keep the Braves from losing in the postseason anymore ... because they wouldn't be there.

das
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Old 12-08-03, 11:32 AM   #4
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They would have fired him the day after they lost to the Cubs.
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Old 12-08-03, 11:37 AM   #5
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If the Braves got rid of Cox, wouldn't they be Unix?
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Old 12-08-03, 12:35 PM   #6
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No, I don't see how losing cox would improve the team.

On a side note, I'm mystified at why the Braves didn't offer Sheffield arbitration. The deal with the Yankees is all but done so they would have gotten free draft picks. Apparently they will file a greviance, but you never know what the outcome of that might be.
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Old 12-08-03, 12:45 PM   #7
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I read in the paper this morning that they did offer the arbitration.

das
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Old 12-08-03, 02:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jericho
No, I don't see how losing cox would improve the team.
On the other hand ... I don't see how keeping Cox would improve the team either.
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Old 12-08-03, 02:55 PM   #9
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nope

i see more harm in losing him than anything
cox is a great coach
the players love him
and its hard to blame a guy for having teams that collapse in the off season.. its not like he is doing anything different, they just forget how to play..
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Old 12-08-03, 03:13 PM   #10
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It's funny cause Cox sounds exactly like "cocks".
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Old 12-08-03, 03:53 PM   #11
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No they shouldn't get rid of him. He's done a great job and i don't blame him for a decade of poor clutch hitting.
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Old 12-08-03, 05:25 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by namja
On the other hand ... I don't see how keeping Cox would improve the team either.
Maybe not, but he does have a guaranteed contract
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Old 12-08-03, 05:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jericho
Maybe not, but he does have a guaranteed contract
Fine.

I don't think the Braves should get rid of him. I agree with you: "I don't see how losing cox would improve the team." But I don't think they'll improve with him there either. They're just gonna be "stagnant" as they have been for the past 12 years. By "stagnant" I mean keep winning 90-100 games, winning the division, and losing in the playoffs, which may be just fine for the Braves management. I really see Cox as a guy who will win the WS like once in 10 years. Yes, that's a great accomplishment. Yes, he's a great manager. But is that enough?
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Old 12-08-03, 06:19 PM   #14
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Perhaps the better question is: Has Bobby Cox overstayed his welcome?
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Old 12-08-03, 06:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by namja
I really see Cox as a guy who will win the WS like once in 10 years.
and here i thought of him as someone that wins 12 straight division titles, best record in baseball many of those times, and keeps getting let down by players not stepping up when it counts.. so only ending up with the SECOND, THIRD, or FOURTH best team in baseball.. but I guess there is no room for you if your not number ONE
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Old 12-08-03, 06:50 PM   #16
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Quoth Patman
Perhaps the better question is: Has Bobby Cox overstayed his welcome?


Not a chance in hell. Aside from getting thrown out of a few too many games, the guy's been nothing but class, a great representative of this city, and a winner. We got beat in a 5 game series by the best 1-2 pitching combination in the league ... kick him out of the city!!!!

das
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Old 12-08-03, 07:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by twikoff
and here i thought of him as someone that wins 12 straight division titles, best record in baseball many of those times, and keeps getting let down by players not stepping up when it counts.. so only ending up with the SECOND, THIRD, or FOURTH best team in baseball.. but I guess there is no room for you if your not number ONE
Yup, exactly that. There are many teams that have the win or get fired attitude. Not that I agree with them.
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Old 12-08-03, 07:14 PM   #18
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Why should they get rid of him? I don't think that a manager has the ability to make his team win the World Series more often. I give far more credit to Scherholtz for the success of the Braves. Over such a long span, he must be given more credit, IMO.
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Old 12-08-03, 07:25 PM   #19
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Absolutely, Schuerholtz deserves a ton of credit, but "far more?" Doubtful. He's certainly brought in some great talent and made some wonderful decisions, but Cox has been able to implement every one of the changes without a dropoff in production. He's had scrappy fast teams, great pitching teams, and power teams, and they've all found a way to win. It can't be easy to keep shifting things around and keep winning. Scherholtz got this train started to be sure and keeps tossing coal into the fire, but Cox keeps everything on track. Considering some of the huge setbacks we've faced over the years, it's quite impressive that they haven't missed a postseason yet. Neither one of them derserves more credit than the other, let alone far more.

das
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Old 12-09-03, 01:31 AM   #20
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It's all a matter of how much you think a manager can do. I personally don't think that a manager can have such a significant impact on the team over 162 games. Give Cox a poor team with poor players and poor talent, then the results will most likely still be poor. Give him a great team with great talent, then it'll likely be great. How does it matter if the team's strength changes? A team with good players is still a team with good players, regardless of how they are good.

The Braves team has always had good talent in it. They have had an amazingly productive farm system, which is amazing since they always have low draft picks. Schuerholtz is one of the best GMs in the game and I believe that he deserves far more credit than Cox does.
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Old 12-09-03, 01:46 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shamu
It's all a matter of how much you think a manager can do. I personally don't think that a manager can have such a significant impact on the team over 162 games. Give Cox a poor team with poor players and poor talent, then the results will most likely still be poor. Give him a great team with great talent, then it'll likely be great. How does it matter if the team's strength changes? A team with good players is still a team with good players, regardless of how they are good.
Tell that to the Marlins.
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Old 12-09-03, 02:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aphex Twin
Tell that to the Marlins.
I'm not sure if McKeon should be credited for single handedly turning the Marlins around. Sure, the team was bad before he took over, but that team had a ton of young talent. For all we know it could be another situation similar to Shannon Stewart - where everyone says that the Twins turned it around b/c of him and not some other set of circumstances.

That being said, I'm not saying that a good manager is useless or a bad manager is OK.
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Old 12-09-03, 10:09 AM   #23
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Another way to look at it is: Cox cleans up Schuerholtz's muck-ups.
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Old 12-09-03, 10:22 AM   #24
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Absolutely they should fire him, and hire Tony LaRussa. That way fans of both the Braves & Cardinals would be happy.
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