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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 09-13-17, 03:59 PM   #151
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

You have the right to free speech. No right to a forum.
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Old 09-14-17, 09:40 AM   #152
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Actually this is an excellent example. Mabuse has the right to use his free speech to throw whiny baby hissy fits, but if he does it in a restaurant he may be asked to leave.

Freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences.
In your example, the restaurant is on private property, and anyone can be told to leave the premises. Freedom of speech is less protected on private property, by the way, due to the obvious. The owner (i.e., Dictator), can simply not like what Mabuse is saying, and kick him off the property. And the owner would be justified.

If Mabuse is on public grounds, he has just as much of a right to be there as anyone else, and anyone else who would force him away, is violating his rights. There is no civilian who would have the right to force Mabuse off public property, except for law enforcement and/or those who have legal authority to do so. But they would need a reason, not just something like, "Well, I don't like what you say, so you have to leave."
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Old 09-14-17, 10:25 AM   #153
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
In your example, the restaurant is on private property, and anyone can be told to leave the premises. Freedom of speech is less protected on private property, by the way, due to the obvious. The owner (i.e., Dictator), can simply not like what Mabuse is saying, and kick him off the property. And the owner would be justified.

If Mabuse is on public grounds, he has just as much of a right to be there as anyone else, and anyone else who would force him away, is violating his rights. There is no civilian who would have the right to force Mabuse off public property, except for law enforcement and/or those who have legal authority to do so. But they would need a reason, not just something like, "Well, I don't like what you say, so you have to leave."
Change restaurant to the cafeteria at UC Berkeley. If Mabuse causes a scene, he can still be kicked out, even though he has the first amendment right to free speech.

And that's still a different example from someone booking a hall or auditorium to speak at on public university property. I don't think that just because a university is publicly funded means they have to be willing to book anyone who wants to speak, absent of any context.
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Old 09-14-17, 10:30 AM   #154
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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What's really sad is I don't think you actually see the difference.


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Old 09-17-17, 12:12 PM   #155
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

This seems to be exactly what Supermallet was saying in the OP



http://www.theroot.com/new-poll-find...1809072111/amp
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Old 09-17-17, 01:12 PM   #156
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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I tend to agree that most white Americans (and probably most Americans in general) have some racial bias. It would be next to impossible to grow up in this country without simply absorbing some of it, whether one acts on it, confronts it, or denies it.

Thankfully I think this may slowly change as the demographics od America change.

This, of course, is why White Nationalists are becoming more vocal, because they're being forced to confront their hatred and fear. No other legitimate reason.
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Old 09-17-17, 02:42 PM   #157
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

I don't hate anyone based on their race, gender or sexual orientation. I save that hate for religious people.
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Old 09-17-17, 03:03 PM   #158
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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I tend to agree that most white Americans (and probably most Americans in general) have some racial bias. It would be next to impossible to grow up in this country without simply absorbing some of it, whether one acts on it, confronts it, or denies it.

Thankfully I think this may slowly change as the demographics od America change.

This, of course, is why White Nationalists are becoming more vocal, because they're being forced to confront their hatred and fear. No other legitimate reason.
Most people have some sort of bias. This is nothing new to the sociological makeup of a society.

However what is new, is accusing only one particular group of having this bias, pretending it doesn't exist anywhere else.

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I don't hate anyone based on their race, gender or sexual orientation. I save that hate for religious people.
If you're white, then you're subconsciously keeping this inherent racial bias inside you. At least, according to some on this forum.
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Old 09-17-17, 03:18 PM   #159
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Most people have some sort of bias. This is nothing new to the sociological makeup of a society.

However what is new, is accusing only one particular group of having this bias, pretending it doesn't exist anywhere else.



If you're white, then you're subconsciously keeping this inherent racial bias inside you. At least, according to some on this forum.
You seem to be contradicting yourself in the same post.
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Old 09-17-17, 03:36 PM   #160
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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However what is new, is accusing only one particular group of having this bias, pretending it doesn't exist anywhere else.
What is new (for us, anyway) is having a President who embraces white supremacy.

His entire campaign is "Make America Great Again". I doubt he means the mid-90s.

Any further and you start to be in "Take America Back To When Straight White Christian Men Made All Decisions" territory.
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Old 09-17-17, 04:32 PM   #161
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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What is new (for us, anyway) is having a President who embraces white supremacy.

His entire campaign is "Make America Great Again". I doubt he means the mid-90s.

Any further and you start to be in "Take America Back To When Straight White Christian Men Made All Decisions" territory.
Speaking of the 90's Bill Clinton said the same thing. Bill Clinton is racist, too? Trump probably got the slogan from the Clintons as it was theirs to begin with and Trump knew them rather well.

In any case, making america great again, does mean anything racist. You have a better chance of buying up all the frijoles negros at your local grocery store and making the accusation.
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Old 09-17-17, 04:33 PM   #162
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Most people have some sort of bias. This is nothing new to the sociological makeup of a society.

However what is new, is accusing only one particular group of having this bias, pretending it doesn't exist anywhere else.



If you're white, then you're subconsciously keeping this inherent racial bias inside you. At least, according to some on this forum.
It doesn’t surprise me that you’re deliberately misinterpreting the point of my original post or the poll results. Conservatives always try to ignore or downplay criticisms of our systems and institutions, because our systems benefit them the most.

My critique isn’t “whites are bad” or “whites are the only problem in America”. My critique is that our systems and institutions greatly favor whites and disadvantage non-whites, and most whites are unwilling to say or do anything about it because they’re benefiting, whether they’re conscious of it or not.
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Old 09-17-17, 04:40 PM   #163
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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My critique is that our systems and institutions greatly favor whites and disadvantage non-whites, and most whites are unwilling to say or do anything about it because they’re benefiting, whether they’re conscious of it or not.
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Old 09-17-17, 04:42 PM   #164
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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It doesn’t surprise me that you’re deliberately misinterpreting the point of my original post or the poll results. Conservatives always try to ignore or downplay criticisms of our systems and institutions, because our systems benefit them the most.

My critique isn’t “whites are bad” or “whites are the only problem in America”. My critique is that our systems and institutions greatly favor whites and disadvantage non-whites, and most whites are unwilling to say or do anything about it because they’re benefiting, whether they’re conscious of it or not.
Our systems favor the rich and wealthy. If you look historically at those who were minorities and had a shitload of money to throw at the criminal charges being made...you will observe they got the same preferential treatment as a typical "white privileged" person.

It is when you don't have money that the system is biased against you. Not due to your color. Of course there is racism to some degree in any system, but I'm talking about the overall, overriding factor of the US Criminal Justice System. It boils down to MONEY. Those have the money...stay out of prison...those who do not...stay in prison. And that includes both POOR WHITE PEOPLE and POOR BLACK PEOPLE, and POOR HISPANICS.

When you look at the system in terms of money, the lines are very easily seen. In terms of racism, it becomes vague and anecdotal.

I am not "deliberately misinterpreting" what you say. That's yet another accusation, wrapped in passive semantics.
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Old 09-17-17, 04:48 PM   #165
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Our systems favor the rich and wealthy. If you look historically at those who were minorities and had a shitload of money to throw at the criminal charges being made...you will observe they got the same preferential treatment as a typical "white privileged" person.

It is when you don't have money that the system is biased against you. Not due to your color. Of course there is racism to some degree in any system, but I'm talking about the overall, overriding factor of the US Criminal Justice System. It boils down to MONEY. Those have the money...stay out of prison...those who do not...stay in prison. And that includes both POOR WHITE PEOPLE and POOR BLACK PEOPLE, and POOR HISPANICS.

When you look at the system in terms of money, the lines are very easily seen. In terms of racism, it becomes vague and anecdotal.

I am not "deliberately misinterpreting" what you say. That's yet another accusation, wrapped in passive semantics.
What race has most of the money and why do you think that is?

Also you’re focusing on a single institution, I’m talking about all of them.

I don’t want you to think I’m being glib. You’re actually making a good class critique with your post. What you’re failing to see is that capitalism promotes white supremacy, both institutionally and of the extremist variety, because it’s mainly white people who benefit from capitalist systems in this country.
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Old 09-17-17, 05:00 PM   #166
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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What race has most of the money and why do you think that is?
Asian men are the highest paid workers in the US and also have large accumulations of wealth. How? Family inheritance.

Mark Z. created Facebook, so is he a racist because he's a billionaire?

What about Bill Gates?

Steve Jobs a racist, too?

You must include these people into your theory. And that's why I believe your theory is flawed. At the same time, I don't believe that everyone who is white and has a shitload of money...is not racist...but to say that white people have all the money and that's because they are racist...is no different than saying Black people have no money because they're stupid and aren't smart.

Blacks have a tougher time due to economics and being the political pawns of their leaders for decades. Those same economics that Democrats have been wanting to change for the last 50+ years...but amazingly haven't done a damn thing about except point fingers and the inner cities getting more violent and businesses leaving town.

That's why many Blacks and minorities voted for Trump because their own party wasn't helping them. And unfortunately, it appears as if Trump is no different than a Democrat or Republican, just a bigger mouth.

On a side note, I am aware of some Black families who inherited homes in the inner portland area--some of the few last homes that aren't being torn down and shoebox houses taking their place--and are among the few who had parents that gave them the house. This is a start on generational inheritance, which really does help offset the economic disparity. Hell, even a shamed white person like me would be grateful if a relative willed a house to me. That would make a big difference in my life.

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Also you’re focusing on a single institution, I’m talking about all of them.
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Our systems favor the rich and wealthy.
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Old 09-17-17, 05:11 PM   #167
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs both participated (still participating in Zuck’s case) in racist systems. They absolutely benefit from the white supremacy baked into our country. Bill Gates too. They may not personally be racist. I participate in racist systems too, it’s unavoidable when the racism and bias is baked into our daily lives.

Who sets the economic policies that strongly favor whites over blacks? As for Asians, how many of them are in the top 1% of wealth holders in this country?
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Old 09-17-17, 05:20 PM   #168
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

By the way, about Zuckerberg...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faceboo...aring-on-site/

Quote:
Facebook announced that it will no longer allow its advertisers to exclude specific ethnic or racial groups from receiving certain ads on the site. The social networking site had come under fire for a practice that many viewed as discriminatory.

In a blog post Friday, Erin Egan, vice president of Facebook U.S. public policy and the company’s chief privacy officer, affirmed that advertisers will no longer be able to target or exclude different groups from ads for credit, employment, or housing.

Egan acknowledged that while the company’s “ethnic affinity” marketing service was created so that brands could reach more “multicultural audiences with more relevant advertising,” concerns from civil rights leaders and site users have caused the company to reassess its approach to ads.

“Recently, policymakers and civil rights leaders have expressed concerns that advertisers could misuse some aspects of our affinity marketing segments. Specifically, they’ve raised the possibility that some advertisers might use these segments to run ads that discriminate against people, particularly in areas where certain groups have historically faced discrimination — housing, employment and the extension of credit,” Egan wrote. “We take these issues seriously. Discriminatory advertising has no place on Facebook.”

Just last week, three users filed a lawsuit alleging that Facebook’s advertising practice violates the Fair Housing Act and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

ProPublica was the first outlet to shed a light on the company’s advertising policies at the end of last month.

The nonprofit news outlet tested the system by purchasing an ad using tools on Facebook to target members who were house hunting but exclude anyone with an “Ethnic Affinity” of African-American, Asian-American or Hispanic.

“When we showed Facebook’s racial exclusion options to a prominent civil rights lawyer John Relman, he gasped and said, ‘This is horrifying. This is massively illegal. This is about as blatant a violation of the federal Fair Housing Act as one can find,’” ProPublica’s Julia Angwin and Terry Parris Jr. wrote.

Moving forward, Facebook said it will build tools to “detect and automatically disable” this ethnic affinity marketing tool for ads offering housing, employment, or credit. Egan stressed that “there are many non-discriminatory uses” of the ethnic affinity tool but that the company made the call to “best guard against discrimination by suspending these types of ads.”

Beyond this, the company is updating its advertising policy guidelines that will require advertisers to declare they will not engage with discriminatory advertising on the site. The company will give these advertisers “educational materials” that will help them “understand their obligations” when placing ads for these services.

“We are making these changes to deter discrimination and strengthen our ability to enforce our policies,” she added. “We look forward to finding additional ways to combat discrimination, while increasing opportunity, and to continuing our dialogue with policymakers and civil rights leaders about these important issues.”
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Old 09-17-17, 05:20 PM   #169
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei View Post
Asian men are the highest paid workers in the US and also have large accumulations of wealth. How? Family inheritance.

Mark Z. created Facebook, so is he a racist because he's a billionaire?

What about Bill Gates?

Steve Jobs a racist, too?

You must include these people into your theory. And that's why I believe your theory is flawed. At the same time, I don't believe that everyone who is white and has a shitload of money...is not racist...but to say that white people have all the money and that's because they are racist...is no different than saying Black people have no money because they're stupid and aren't smart.

Blacks have a tougher time due to economics and being the political pawns of their leaders for decades. Those same economics that Democrats have been wanting to change for the last 50+ years...but amazingly haven't done a damn thing about except point fingers and the inner cities getting more violent and businesses leaving town.

That's why many Blacks and minorities voted for Trump because their own party wasn't helping them. And unfortunately, it appears as if Trump is no different than a Democrat or Republican, just a bigger mouth.

On a side note, I am aware of some Black families who inherited homes in the inner portland area--some of the few last homes that aren't being torn down and shoebox houses taking their place--and are among the few who had parents that gave them the house. This is a start on generational inheritance, which really does help offset the economic disparity. Hell, even a shamed white person like me would be grateful if a relative willed a house to me. That would make a big difference in my life.
Your sophistry, if that's what is is, is amazing.

Jeffrey Dahmer was white. Does that make all white people serial killers? Or did i get that backwards?
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Old 09-17-17, 05:35 PM   #170
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs both participated (still participating in Zuck’s case) in racist systems. They absolutely benefit from the white supremacy baked into our country. Bill Gates too. They may not personally be racist. I participate in racist systems too, it’s unavoidable when the racism and bias is baked into our daily lives.

Who sets the economic policies that strongly favor whites over blacks?
The President does not set economic policies in stone. They must be voted on. This involves both Democrats and Republicans, who are men, women, black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.

I'd say policies like NAFTA and other global economic policies influence US policies (like China), and are not restricted to just the US.

Is there evidence Bill Gates had the same idea as a minority and the racist system gave privilege to Gates versus another person who had the same idea?

The same with Zuckerberg. Did another non-White come up with idea but Zuckerberg got preference?

Because if you can demonstrate they did get preference, I would hear your complaints and take them to heart more. But from what I know in the two examples there, those two men rose to popularity due to market demand and even market competition. In the case of Zuck, he is accused of stealing the idea of Facebook (or the code of how it works) from others, but those others...were White. So, the story would be moot, I suppose.

Black inventors who were geniuses of their time : http://blackinventor.com/
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Old 09-17-17, 05:40 PM   #171
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Again, you're misinterpreting my argument to be so narrow as to be meaningless, which is I'm sure your point. The question isn't whether Mark Zuckerberg or Bill Gates specifically stole ideas from black people, which actually wouldn't be a case of systemic inequality and more a case of personal theft. I keep talking about systems and you keep asking about individuals.

I don't believe you want to have an actual conversation about this, it seems more like you're just trying to shut me down because the actual conversation would require that you acknowledge that you participate in racist systems and benefit from them.
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Old 09-17-17, 05:50 PM   #172
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

Supermallet, drop the dramatics, ok?

I am not shutting you down. I just don't agree with your assessment entirely. However, I respect it.

I will say yes, we all are, too some degree, involved in racial politics, most of us unwillingly, whether it's the companies we work for or even a particular area of the country we live in. I won't deny that racism does not exist. It does. I just believe there are far greater Whites and Blacks...who are not racist, and don't give a shit about current events and just want to live peacefully, who are also Democrats and Republicans. I firmly believe there is more of a force against racism than the opposite, and I do not need a sign in my hands, while I'm pummeling people who protest something I don't agree with, to prove this point.
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Old 09-17-17, 05:58 PM   #173
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

I disagree, I think by continuing to focus on individuals and individual situations, you ARE shutting down conversation about systemic issues. This is why prominent conservatives harp on things like individual achievement and individualism, because focusing on those things removes the focus from the systems that allow for individual achievement for some while holding down others from doing the same.

As for your comment about the majority of people who don't care about politics and just want to live peacefully, you are right about that to an extent, but when we live in a society where the institutions are inherently biased towards whites and against non-whites, being apolitical and not caring is an unintentional support to the forces of white supremacy. And most whites can be apolitical and uncaring because they benefit from these systems. They have the luxury to not care about it.
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Old 09-17-17, 06:36 PM   #174
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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And most whites can be apolitical and uncaring because they benefit from these systems. They have the luxury to not care about it.
This is a big thing right now - those who don't have to worry about the system have the luxury of engaging or disengaging. Meanwhile, those who do not benefit from the system have to fight for the bare minimum of advantages that the majority get simply by being born into it.
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Old 09-17-17, 06:46 PM   #175
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Re: On white supremacy, minority relations, and how to protest

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Meanwhile, those who do not benefit from the system have to fight for the bare minimum of advantages that the majority get simply by being born into it.


No, they just have to "work harder" and "stop complaining."
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