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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-09-17, 08:00 PM   #51
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Re: Google diversity memo

This article goes into why Damore has little chance of winning.

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The First Amendment to the US Constitution prevents the government from restricting your speech. It doesn't restrict your employer from controlling your speech when you are at work. As the government is not involved in this case, Damore is already on shaky ground if he files a lawsuit arguing a free-speech case.

More important, Damore's speech has not been restricted. He can continue to express his opinion. Indeed, his opinion has already been published far more widely than he can have hoped. His speech is on steroids right now! His legal problem is that he does not have a constitutional right to a job at Google. If he is an "at will" employee — i.e., an employee not governed by a special contract that, say, a film star might have — then Google has every right to demand that he leave.
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Old 08-09-17, 08:41 PM   #52
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post

Something like this "manifesto" is unusual to be sure
It's a mission statement.
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Old 08-09-17, 09:26 PM   #53
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Defiant View Post
This article goes into why Damore has little chance of winning.
I don't believe he is claiming first amendment in his lawsuit. The government frowns upon firing an employee who makes a workplace complaint. Plus California also has laws protecting politically oriented views in the workplace. If the forum was the appropriate place for him to air his concerns and he was fired for it, he will come out well in a lawsuit. My guess is that Google will settle this quietly.

This guy reminds me of the recent airline passenger that was assaulted for not giving up the seat he paid for and was already seated in. 99% of the people would have gotten up. I'm glad that there are people out there braver than me to push back once in a while on corporate policy.
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Old 08-09-17, 10:11 PM   #54
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Which recommendations specifically?
You asked and I wanted to follow-up:

Rewarding cooperation and collaboration in some job processes. Offering more opportunities for part-time work for employees that want a work / life balance.

I think he intended to help and actually offered some solutions.

Just like my question (or additional commentary to continue the dialog) in my original thread - I think it was just misplaced.
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Old 08-09-17, 10:37 PM   #55
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Re: Google diversity memo

The Google Memo: Four Scientists Respond

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Lee Jussim, professor of social psychology at Rutgers University: The author of the Google essay on issues related to diversity gets nearly all of the science and its implications exactly right
Quote:
Geoffrey Miller, evolutionary psychology professor at University of New Mexico: For what it’s worth, I think that almost all of the Google memo’s empirical claims are scientifically accurate. Moreover, they are stated quite carefully and dispassionately
Quote:
Debra W Soh, PhD in sexual neuroscience at University of York: As a woman who’s worked in academia and within STEM, I didn’t find the memo offensive or sexist in the least. I found it to be a well thought out document, asking for greater tolerance for differences in opinion, and treating people as individuals instead of based on group membership
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Old 08-09-17, 11:14 PM   #56
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
I'm not going to debate the points that he made on gender differences, but what I find offensive is his characterization of the Google environment as an echo chamber (they don't tolerate my intolerance) and his insinuation that diversity programs at Google amount to "illegal discrimination." I think Google was right to fire him.
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Old 08-10-17, 06:35 AM   #57
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Re: Google diversity memo

James Damore alleges that Alphabet (Google) violated the National Labor Relations Act.

Here it is as filed to NLRB: link
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Old 08-10-17, 07:26 AM   #58
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Re: Google diversity memo

World Book and Encyclopedia Brittanica are praying that that a flurry of class action suits will be spectacularly successful.
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Old 08-10-17, 09:42 AM   #59
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Re: Google diversity memo

Finally read it!

He is writes politely, not trying to offend. And while there might be a valid argument that the biological differences between men and women makes certain jobs/duties more or less appealing.

1- His viewpoint comes from a software background. But programming is just like learning a foreign language or playing an instrument. Anybody can do it, and when exposed early on it almost becomes second nature. It doesn't require masculine or feminine traits. And I say this coming from a tech background, with a wife and sister that are also in tech fields.

2- It does not explain why he wants to get rid of all gender/race target programs. Its not like he talked about how people from India or Mexico are inherently different at coding or negotiating deals
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Old 08-10-17, 10:01 AM   #60
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by nando820 View Post

He is writes politely
So true.
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Old 08-10-17, 10:18 AM   #61
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Psi View Post
I'm not going to debate the points that he made on gender differences, but what I find offensive is his characterization of the Google environment as an echo chamber (they don't tolerate my intolerance) and his insinuation that diversity programs at Google amount to "illegal discrimination." I think Google was right to fire him.
When I first became a "management-level" engineer in the late 90s, I was put through a lot of various diversity/harassment training classes.

In one of these classes, there were many short videos of uncomfortable situations for various minority groups (blacks, gays, women, etc), and then we as a class had to come up with various solutions to deal with the issue.

In video after video, I would be a lone voice of dissent regarding having to drastically change the situation at hand.

One video: Jack is gay. His group has after work outings that include their significant others. Jack is too scared to bring his boyfriend.

My take: Jack should bring his boyfriend when he's ready

Everyone else's take: Cancel the after work outings. No spouses or significant others should be allowed at work gatherings.


Other videos were the same. Minority is silently feeling repressed. My take is that he needs to voice his concerns, and everyone else's take was that we need to baby them and make them feel special.

At one point after a video was shown, a woman started speaking first, and she said "I agree with Perry on this one, he should talk to his manager, etc".

If this Google has an issue with unequal pay or unequal advancement for their women and minorities, and their solution is to provide additional training only to women and minorities, then maybe the memo writer has a valid complaint. If Google's solution is to set a quota for hiring and promotion of women and minorities, then again, why not be able to question that approach and make suggestions that may not involve potential discrimination?
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Old 08-10-17, 10:55 AM   #62
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Re: Google diversity memo

Alt-right "activists" are planning on boycotting Google due to this.



Good luck with that!
Fucking morons.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:14 AM   #63
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by nando820 View Post
Finally read it!

He is writes politely, not trying to offend. And while there might be a valid argument that the biological differences between men and women makes certain jobs/duties more or less appealing.

1- His viewpoint comes from a software background. But programming is just like learning a foreign language or playing an instrument. Anybody can do it, and when exposed early on it almost becomes second nature. It doesn't require masculine or feminine traits. And I say this coming from a tech background, with a wife and sister that are also in tech fields.

2- It does not explain why he wants to get rid of all gender/race target programs. Its not like he talked about how people from India or Mexico are inherently different at coding or negotiating deals
I agree with this. My partner is a software engineer/systems admin type, and he has said anyone just starting computing and math in college is at a disadvantage. He compared it to playing an instrument--most people who excel discover their interest and put in thousands of hours as kids. So getting women more interested means getting little girls interested.
------
I think the manifesto has some reasonable sounding ideas (that don't pass scrutiny) wrapped up in misogyny. It's very telling to me that he's gone to the alt-right and is suing. Probably his plan all along. The manifesto had several footnotes at the end, and this one made my eyes roll. I can't help but think that under all his politeness, he has deep problems with women:

[9] Yes, in a national aggregate, women have lower salaries than men for a variety of reasons. For the same work though, women get paid just as much as men. Considering women spend more money than men and that salary represents how much the employees sacrifices (e.g. more hours, stress, and danger), we really need to rethink our stereotypes around power.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:21 AM   #64
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Re: Google diversity memo

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...joined the chorus of people with usernames like CNNisRetarded, TheMuddyCuck, and Grammar Nawtsy in being angered by what they call “diversity crybullies.”
This kind of sums up how I feel about that side of the argument.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:23 AM   #65
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Re: Google diversity memo

Yeah, I have to agree, the usernames of these people...reflect their mentality. I can't get on board with that kind of nonsense.

People need to remember that their employer can terminate their employment for violations of their own communications policies...which override and overrule any social media flatulence that might argue otherwise.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:30 AM   #66
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
When I first became a "management-level" engineer in the late 90s, I was put through a lot of various diversity/harassment training classes.

In one of these classes...
No offense, but it's really hard to take much weight in the accuracy of your recollection of some late 90s diversity classes, when you literally posted a link to an article that says "four scientists respond!" yet you only quote the three that agree with you. They may be right or wrong (and there are other interviews with other scientists that disagree with them), but the fourth offered a more nuanced opinion:
Quote:
But it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace. And even if sex differences in negative emotionality were relevant to occupational performance (e.g., not being able to handle stressful assignments), the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance). So, using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe. Not precise enough to do much good, probably will cause a lot of harm. Moreover, men are more emotional than women in certain ways, too. Sex differences in emotion depend on the type of emotion, how it is measured, where it is expressed, when it is expressed, and lots of other contextual factors.

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Is he a MGTOW?
He probably is now. I guess "incel" will be more appropriate.
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Last edited by Dan; 08-10-17 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:33 AM   #67
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by tasha99 View Post
I agree with this. My partner is a software engineer/systems admin type, and he has said anyone just starting computing and math in college is at a disadvantage. He compared it to playing an instrument--most people who excel discover their interest and put in thousands of hours as kids. So getting women more interested means getting little girls interested.
------
I think the manifesto has some reasonable sounding ideas (that don't pass scrutiny) wrapped up in misogyny. It's very telling to me that he's gone to the alt-right and is suing. Probably his plan all along. The manifesto had several footnotes at the end, and this one made my eyes roll. I can't help but think that under all his politeness, he has deep problems with women:

[9] Yes, in a national aggregate, women have lower salaries than men for a variety of reasons. For the same work though, women get paid just as much as men. Considering women spend more money than men and that salary represents how much the employees sacrifices (e.g. more hours, stress, and danger), we really need to rethink our stereotypes around power.
Is he a MGTOW?
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Old 08-10-17, 11:55 AM   #68
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Giantrobo View Post
Is he a MGTOW?


I bet he is.
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Old 08-10-17, 11:59 AM   #69
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by tasha99 View Post
I think the manifesto has some reasonable sounding ideas (that don't pass scrutiny) wrapped up in misogyny. It's very telling to me that he's gone to the alt-right
That's all you need to know right there.
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Old 08-10-17, 12:07 PM   #70
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Re: Google diversity memo

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No offense, but it's really hard to take much weight in the accuracy of your recollection of some late 90s diversity classes, when you literally posted a link to an article that says "four scientists respond!" yet you only quote the three that agree with you. They may be right or wrong (and there are other interviews with other scientists that disagree with them), but the fourth offered a more nuanced opinion
A nuanced opinion that couldn't be summarized in one line, but you were able to click the article and read it, so I'm not sure what your complaint is.

People here were saying this was some low level coder that knew nothing about biology or whatever subject and grabbed his info from wiki pages, but 3 (out of 4) PhD people analyzed his paper and claimed it is well thought out. If 3 out of 4 disagreed with him, I would have still posted the article because the article tries to provide more analysis than the so called experts on the interweb.
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Old 08-10-17, 12:21 PM   #71
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Josh-da-man View Post
That's all you need to know right there.
This first interview along with the possibility that he lied about having a PhD (he's since corrected his LinkedIn profile) are a little alarming. I'm surprised that he couldn't line up the Today show or GMA.
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Old 08-10-17, 12:23 PM   #72
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
A nuanced opinion that couldn't be summarized in one line
"it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace."

Quote:
but you were able to click the article and read it, so I'm not sure what your complaint is.
It was an observation. You posted an article citing four scientists, but only quoted 3 of them. Just found it a little questionable, especially followed by your anecdote:
Quote:
One video: Jack is gay. His group has after work outings that include their significant others. Jack is too scared to bring his boyfriend.

My take: Jack should bring his boyfriend when he's ready

Everyone else's take: Cancel the after work outings. No spouses or significant others should be allowed at work gatherings.
I just... don't think anyone has any reason to believe that that's a remotely accurate summary of how that actually happened. You can say, "Well, you don't have to believe me. It's true." That's fine, but I don't believe it.

Quote:
People here were saying this was some low level coder that knew nothing about biology or whatever subject and grabbed his info from wiki pages, but 3 (out of 4) PhD people analyzed his paper and claimed it is well thought out.
Quick search of the article shows that only 2 of the 4 are said to have PhD's. One of them is the guy whose opinion you didn't summarize. Not to suggest that qualifications are the only thing that matter (they aren't), but misrepresenting them doesn't help either. All four may very well have PhD's, but the article didn't make that statement.

Quote:
If 3 out of 4 disagreed with him, I would have still posted the article because the article tries to provide more analysis than the so called experts on the interweb.
I'll take your word for it.
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Old 08-10-17, 01:25 PM   #73
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
Ten bucks says they post their boycott video on YouTube.
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Old 08-10-17, 01:34 PM   #74
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Re: Google diversity memo

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Quick search of the article shows that only 2 of the 4 are said to have PhD's. One of them is the guy whose opinion you didn't summarize. Not to suggest that qualifications are the only thing that matter (they aren't), but misrepresenting them doesn't help either. All four may very well have PhD's, but the article didn't make that statement.
Okay, I took that they were college professors to mean they had PhDs, but I guess that's not always true. But a quick google search (which you didn't have time to do) shows they all have PhDs.

And it's okay to be skeptical of anything you read on the internet and especially this forum.
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Old 08-10-17, 01:34 PM   #75
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Re: Google diversity memo

I want to make clear my position as pretty far to the left, but I still take issue with how diversity is being handled. There are ways to fix the "old white guy club" problem, but putting women in positions they don't really want isn't it.

As others have said, it's got to start younger. If a girl shows interest in science and math, we need to make sure the teachers and male students aren't making it difficult for her to even get started. This will also help when those boys grow up and join the workforce - they'll be used to working with females.
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