Release List Reviews Shop Join News DVD Giveaways Video Games Advertise
DVD Reviews | Theatrical Reviews | Price Search Buy Stuff Here
DVD Talk
DVD Reviews DVD Talk Headlines HD Reviews


Add to My Yahoo! - RSS 2.0 - RSS 2.0 - DVD Talk Podcast RSS -


Go Back   DVD Talk Forum > General Discussions > Other Talk > Religion, Politics and World Events

Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-09-17, 02:34 PM   #26
DVD Talk Legend
 
creekdipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 16,343
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mabuse View Post
No pants Fridays sounded kick ass.


That still can't hold a candle to no drawers Thursdays.

There's casual and there's casual.
__________________
"With all due respect, the forum is unusable and people are abandoning it, largely due to creekdipper's posts and people's reactions to them."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 02:38 PM   #27
DVD Talk Legend
 
Save Ferris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 13,363
Re: Google diversity memo

This is a direct quote that seems extra-inflammatory. I haven't read anything else of the paper but it should be equally cringe-worthy:

Quote:
Suggestions

I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).
http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-t...eed-1797564320
__________________
This weeks horoscope: “While couples who live together often begin to look alike over time, an apartment-wide fire this week will bring about the resemblance in just hours.”
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 02:39 PM   #28
DVD Talk Hero
 
DVD Polizei's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 49,664
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
Affluent white male with ~4 years experience in a field predominantly run by affluent white males says white males are the truly disadvantaged ones.

Okay.
Not just white males. Affluent Liberal white males.

Which is rather surprising, coming from such a company.
__________________
Blu-ray Titles: ~1,050 | HD DVD Titles: ~323

"I don't sell airplane parts. I've never sold airplane parts."
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 02:44 PM   #29
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Home again, Big D
Posts: 23,920
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Save Ferris View Post
This is a direct quote that seems extra-inflammatory. I haven't read anything else of the paper but it should be equally cringe-worthy:



http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-t...eed-1797564320
Sounds like he got what he was advocating. They didn't fire all men, just him.
__________________
Live Free. Dine Well. Drink good beer.

Home Theater Build
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 02:45 PM   #30
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,571
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Save Ferris View Post
This is a direct quote that seems extra-inflammatory. I haven't read anything else of the paper but it should be equally cringe-worthy:



http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-t...eed-1797564320
That part is EXTRA inflammatory? I'd say it's actually one of the least provocative portions. He hedges like eleven times to be sure he isn't stepping on any toes. How is it EXTRA?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:06 PM   #31
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 2,901
Re: Google diversity memo

I don't think he blasted this out to everyone in the company. My impression was that this was posted on an internal bulletin board anonymously. Plus reading through it, I didn't see anything particularly offensive.

Going by the media headlines, I was expecting the worst, but is he is stereotyping when he states that women tend to want more of a work-life balance than men, so that if Google wants them to succeed, they need to promote more people that work part-time and less hours, etc? Those were the kinds of statements I was seeing there, but I'll admit I just glanced through it.

He was complaining that it was discriminatory that internal training for negotiating a better salary was only offered to women, but not men. Discussing workplace issues is protected by law, so Google may have to make this man rich by firing him unless they can prove that his other possibly sexist comments overshadowed his workplace complaints.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:16 PM   #32
Moderator
 
wendersfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nuova Repubblica di Salò
Posts: 31,783
Re: Google diversity memo

Erick Erickson wrote what I think is a pretty compelling argument against this guy's sacking that appeared in the Washington Post yesterday. He then went on to make a series of generalized attacks against liberals, but this is Erick Erickson we're talking about...

The gist of Erickson's argument is that the author seems genuinely interested in promoting diversity but did so in a way that offends Google's 'groupthink'.
__________________
"Fifth Element may be as dumb and artless as Johnny Mnemonic, but since a frenchman made it it must be ART!" -Pants
"...I think it's a low blow to draw attention to wendersfan's drunken state. " - dork
"Just because their victims are still alive doesn't mean they didn't commit murder." - grundle
"You concentrate on the sad wanna be hooliganism and let us worry about the actual soccer." - rocketsauce (final score: Columbus 2-Chicago 1)
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:24 PM   #33
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
EddieMoney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Paradise, USA
Posts: 9,439
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by wendersfan View Post
The gist of Erickson's argument is that the author seems genuinely interested in promoting diversity but did so in a way that offends Google's 'groupthink'.

That's the way I interpreted it.
__________________
"Go... go watch that inane new Kevin James comedy and drool into your Walmart mac and cheese." - TGM
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:32 PM   #34
DVD Talk Legend
 
milo bloom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,951
Re: Google diversity memo

If the current diversity program was not doing it's job, then we shouldn't be afraid to discuss it.

And the bigger question here is: do we want to push more girls/women into STEM, even if that's not necessarily their thing? Or do we want to do a better job of making the atmosphere in the STEM fields less toxic for the women that do want to be in those fields? If diversity programs aren't working the latter, then I agree with the general idea of the memo.


And let me say up front, my wife is in IT, so I'm not talking hypothetical here. It's what she wanted, and she made it happen, but she has faced some challenges due to being female.
__________________
OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) is not about more image, or less image. It's about the right image.
Collection at FilmAficionado

Doctor Who DVDs needed - The Web Planet, The War Games, Ghost Light.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:46 PM   #35
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 2,901
Re: Google diversity memo

when I started my career, the programming profession was fairly even with women and men, no immigrants either for that matter.

I've read that a couple of the major factors to less women going into engineering, and specifically software engineering, was the media portrayal of programmers as nerds, movies like Weird Science, or Revenge of the Nerds, etc. The other factor was the first home computers being marketed exclusively to boys/men.

By the late 90s, talking to co-workers that had daughters graduating at the top of their class, none were choosing engineering, rather medicine, biology, even applied math. None wanted to become programmers for sure. This reflected the applicants that I was seeing also, very few women applying for jobs.

Engineering isn't like working at a construction site, or day trading on the floor, it's pretty color blind and gender blind at all of companies that I've worked at. I've never heard anyone that considered whether someone could or couldn't do their job based on any factor other than their direct experience working with them.

But I do know that many managers promote on qualities such as assertiveness and debate, rather than tenacity to solve problems and intelligence (which to me seem more important), so as this ex-Google employee is saying, a company like Google needs to decide what qualities are really important when deciding promotions and whether those qualities are gender blind.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 03:53 PM   #36
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 21,826
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
I don't think he blasted this out to everyone in the company. My impression was that this was posted on an internal bulletin board anonymously. Plus reading through it, I didn't see anything particularly offensive.

Going by the media headlines, I was expecting the worst, but is he is stereotyping when he states that women tend to want more of a work-life balance than men, so that if Google wants them to succeed, they need to promote more people that work part-time and less hours, etc? Those were the kinds of statements I was seeing there, but I'll admit I just glanced through it.

He was complaining that it was discriminatory that internal training for negotiating a better salary was only offered to women, but not men. Discussing workplace issues is protected by law, so Google may have to make this man rich by firing him unless they can prove that his other possibly sexist comments overshadowed his workplace complaints.
I give him credit, this was not anonymous, this was a doc and he put his name on it. And it does seem like he honestly wanted to promote discussion. However there are certain things that HR can and will label as harassment, basically anything that creates a hostile work environment based on one's race, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability, veteran status, etc. You can have views on all of these things but you talk about them openly at work at your peril. And like everything else, once it gets out to the media, things that could perhaps be handled quietly internally no longer can.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 04:33 PM   #37
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 31,301
Re: Google diversity memo

It appears to me this guy is trying to say:

1. Women who are drawn to study the STEM sciences are just as good as men who enter those fields;
2. A smaller percentage of women (than the percentage of men) tend to be drawn to study STEM sciences due to biological differences [NOTE: I have no idea whether this is true or not; I do not know whether there has been any valid scientific study of this, and if so, what it says.]
3. Therefore, the difference in numbers of women and men in STEM professions isn't (completely) due to oppression or discrimination.
4. Efforts to try to increase the percentage of women in STEM professions might not be valid.

I disagree with 4. I don't know about 2 (if 2 is correct, there may be SOME validity to 3). If 2 is correct (and biological differences account for a smaller percentage of women over men entering studies in STEM fields), is the discussion worth having? I smell bullshit, but I don't know whether it's a valid inquiry or not.

Anyone who even suggests that white men are at a disadvantage are full of shit.
__________________
"...Bando...you are perfect and awesome." - 4KRG
"Bando 4 Prez" - DVD Polizei
"[Bando is] nowhere near as big a weasel as Ted Cruz" - dork
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 04:41 PM   #38
DVD Talk Legend
 
Why So Blu?'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 23,788
Re: Google diversity memo

I also read that he's supposedly a PHD, but then the school that he supposedly got his PHD at said that he does not have a PHD from them just a Masters.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 04:55 PM   #39
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 2,901
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Why So Blu? View Post
I also read that he's supposedly a PHD, but then the school that he supposedly got his PHD at said that he does not have a PHD from them just a Masters.
The "school" is Harvard, and I think his undergraduate degree was from the University of Illinois (my alma mater)

In googling for articles about his degree, I found the techcrunch link that stirred things up:
https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/07/go...s-memo-author/
Quote:
He also argued that women are more neurotic than men, and that this is a factor in their employment.
The original memo actually used the word "neuroticism" which the definition is much less alarming than that for neurotic when taking the first link from Google. And he specifically referenced "lower stress tolerance" as his definition, not reference to mental illness.

Neuroticism is one of the Big Five higher-order personality traits in the study of psychology. Individuals who score high on neuroticism are more likely than average to be moody and to experience such feelings as anxiety, worry, fear, anger, frustration, envy, jealousy, guilt, depressed mood, and loneliness.

neu·rot·ic : suffering from, caused by, or relating to neurosis.
synonyms: mentally ill, mentally disturbed, unstable, unbalanced, maladjusted
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:01 PM   #40
DVD Talk Legend
 
milo bloom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 11,951
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandoman View Post
It appears to me this guy is trying to say:

1. Women who are drawn to study the STEM sciences are just as good as men who enter those fields;
2. A smaller percentage of women (than the percentage of men) tend to be drawn to study STEM sciences due to biological differences [NOTE: I have no idea whether this is true or not; I do not know whether there has been any valid scientific study of this, and if so, what it says.]
3. Therefore, the difference in numbers of women and men in STEM professions isn't (completely) due to oppression or discrimination.
4. Efforts to try to increase the percentage of women in STEM professions might not be valid.

I disagree with 4. I don't know about 2 (if 2 is correct, there may be SOME validity to 3). If 2 is correct (and biological differences account for a smaller percentage of women over men entering studies in STEM fields), is the discussion worth having? I smell bullshit, but I don't know whether it's a valid inquiry or not.

Anyone who even suggests that white men are at a disadvantage are full of shit.

I am absolutely a feminist male but I think there's some merit to having a conversation about your # 4 there. Why should *anybody* be pushed into a field they're not interested in? If women don't want to be STEM majors, I don't want guidance counselors or their parents or anyone pushing them into STEM just so the percentage can be higher. That's not the point of equal opportunity.

The issue is that girls/young women who do show an interest are being met with a toxic culture that pushes them away. That's what needs to be fixed.
__________________
OAR (Original Aspect Ratio) is not about more image, or less image. It's about the right image.
Collection at FilmAficionado

Doctor Who DVDs needed - The Web Planet, The War Games, Ghost Light.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:06 PM   #41
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 31,301
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
I am absolutely a feminist male but I think there's some merit to having a conversation about your # 4 there. Why should *anybody* be pushed into a field they're not interested in? If women don't want to be STEM majors, I don't want guidance counselors or their parents or anyone pushing them into STEM just so the percentage can be higher. That's not the point of equal opportunity.

The issue is that girls/young women who do show an interest are being met with a toxic culture that pushes them away. That's what needs to be fixed.


I simply don't know whether there are studies which support the claim that women tend less to be drawn to STEM study, and if so, why that is (nature or nurture).
__________________
"...Bando...you are perfect and awesome." - 4KRG
"Bando 4 Prez" - DVD Polizei
"[Bando is] nowhere near as big a weasel as Ted Cruz" - dork
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:29 PM   #42
DVD Talk Legend
 
grundle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,466
Re: Google diversity memo

I would like to hear google's explanation for why women are underrepresented at the company.

By firing this guy for saying that women are underrepresented at google due to biological differences between men and women, did google just unintentionally admit that it discriminates against women?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:31 PM   #43
DVD Talk Legend
 
Nick Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 19,256
Re: Google diversity memo

I see a junior programmer issuing a company-wide memo criticizing the corporate culture. After that, it's not too surprising that the memo is also tone-deaf.

The memo sounds like he spends time on the 'red pill' forums and is trying to write a kinder, gentler form of those arguments.
__________________
Originally Posted by Troy Stiffler: Nick is the coolest!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:35 PM   #44
Enormous Genitals
 
Bandoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a small cottage on a cul de sac in the lower pits of hell.
Posts: 31,301
Re: Google diversity memo

The author complained that google discriminates against opinions that don't match their corporate culture. Google fired him for expressing that opinion.
__________________
"...Bando...you are perfect and awesome." - 4KRG
"Bando 4 Prez" - DVD Polizei
"[Bando is] nowhere near as big a weasel as Ted Cruz" - dork
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:38 PM   #45
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 11,571
Re: Google diversity memo

Indeed firing him almost certainly confirms in his mind that he is 100% right.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:39 PM   #46
Dan
DVD Talk Legend
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: More drinks, more fun!
Posts: 13,426
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo bloom View Post
I am absolutely a feminist male but I think there's some merit to having a conversation about your # 4 there. Why should *anybody* be pushed into a field they're not interested in? If women don't want to be STEM majors, I don't want guidance counselors or their parents or anyone pushing them into STEM just so the percentage can be higher. That's not the point of equal opportunity.

The issue is that girls/young women who do show an interest are being met with a toxic culture that pushes them away. That's what needs to be fixed.
I agree with your last sentence whole-heartedly, and while I agree that guidance counselors and parents shouldn't PUSH women to be STEM majors, what I think should be clarified is that they also shouldn't push them NOT to. I'd be curious to see how many girls show fleeting interest/competency in that area at a young age, only to be steered towards more "feminine" interests by parents. That kind of thing starts at an early age... kids can be seen as artistic or math-smart or whatever at a pretty early age, but parents don't always have the best influence to let them explore their interests as they mature.

^ not a complete thought but I'll end it there for now.
__________________
"...you've taken a side in an ideological battle, while pretending all the way
that you're simply defending the supposedly neutral value of free speech.
Don't think we don't notice which instances of speech you choose to defend." - Contrapoints
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:40 PM   #47
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Naperville, IL
Posts: 2,901
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
I see a junior programmer issuing a company-wide memo criticizing the corporate culture. After that, it's not too surprising that the memo is also tone-deaf.

The memo sounds like he spends time on the 'red pill' forums and is trying to write a kinder, gentler form of those arguments.
What do you mean by company wide memo?

I'm reading it was an internal discussion board, or internal forums. At my company, we have many places to post questions, issues, and general comments and concerns.

Something like this "manifesto" is unusual to be sure, but I don't think anyone at Google were forced to read it unless they sought it out.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 05:59 PM   #48
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
joeblow69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Palm Springs
Posts: 6,143
Re: Google diversity memo

The only way this memo could have been appropriate is if the author had been an HR person, and they had been tasked with doing this research. This guy must be a grade A moran to not realize posting something like that would get him in trouble.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 07:26 PM   #49
DVD Talk Legend
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 21,826
Re: Google diversity memo

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerryD View Post
What do you mean by company wide memo?

I'm reading it was an internal discussion board, or internal forums. At my company, we have many places to post questions, issues, and general comments and concerns.

Something like this "manifesto" is unusual to be sure, but I don't think anyone at Google were forced to read it unless they sought it out.
Are you saying that if you printed something like this out and posted it in the lunchroom that you wouldn't get in trouble for it?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-17, 07:48 PM   #50
Cool New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 41
Re: Google diversity memo

I’m a Google Manufacturing Robot and I Believe Humans Are Biologically Unfit to Have Jobs in Tech
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 AM.


Copyright 2011 DVDTalk.com All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy and Terms of Use.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0