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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 08-05-17, 07:53 AM   #126
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

^ yup. It's completely disingenuous. On the surface, it may seem reasonable to someone who is just looking for excuses to dismiss transgender people, but with even a little bit of reflection, the average person can see how that holds no water. It's not wrong because it's not even wrong.

I'm surprised no one has brought up Attack Helicopters in this thread yet, to be honest.
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Old 08-05-17, 08:26 AM   #127
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

The odd part to me is why all these issues now? What has changed?

As you note there have always been trans people. And in regards to bathrooms, they have always had to pee. And always used the the bathrooms they identified with. But now, all of a sudden...it's an issue???

Or more to this thread, trans people have always dated. But now there seems to be more issue?
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Old 08-05-17, 09:54 AM   #128
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The odd part to me is why all these issues now? What has changed?
We had the audacity to give rights to women, blacks, and gays, so someone has to be less than human.
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Old 08-05-17, 01:12 PM   #129
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Artman View Post
That's just where we part ways on the issue.
Curious as to why you disagree. I'm not being a dick or "calling you out". Just curious the reason.
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Old 08-05-17, 04:04 PM   #130
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The odd part to me is why all these issues now? What has changed?

As you note there have always been trans people. And in regards to bathrooms, they have always had to pee. And always used the the bathrooms they identified with. But now, all of a sudden...it's an issue???

Or more to this thread, trans people have always dated. But now there seems to be more issue?
To be fair, things have changed considerably within the last, what, 5 years?
People are identifying as non-binary, individuals preferring "they" "ze/xe/xem/etc" as opposed to "him" or "her."

link

Kids are transitioning, as early as elementary school.

There's gender fluidity.

Not saying that those opposed to trans rights aren't in the wrong, but you can't act like these things have always been common.
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Old 08-05-17, 05:10 PM   #131
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

^ While all of that is new in western countries, it's really not new at all. Again, back to the NatGeo article I posted...
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ma...nder-identity/

Quote:
There are such places all over the world: South Asia (where a third gender is called hijra), Nigeria (yan daudu), Mexico (muxe), Samoa (fa‘afafine), Thailand (kathoey), Tonga (fakaleiti), and even the U.S., where third genders are found in Hawaii (mahu) and in some Native American peoples (two-spirit). The degree to which third genders are accepted varies, but the category usually includes anatomical males who behave in a feminine manner and are sexually attracted to men, and almost never to other third-gender individuals. More rarely, some third-gender people, such as the burrnesha of Albania or the fa‘afatama of Samoa, are anatomical females who live in a masculine manner.
It's new in western countries because we have ingrained such a heavy reliance on the he/she male/female "opposites" (the male/female language, in particular, is used for inanimate objects where pin/box or screw/socket are used as well. USB connectors have male/female names. It's everywhere. And it's not necessarily a BAD thing, but it's our language that specifically makes it harder to adopt these ideas)

So yes, you have a valid point. All those extra pronouns are new and confusing, but it's kind of a product of our society, in that people who don't fit the binary are trying to find a term that fits and works. There's no consensus... I'm not sure there needs to be one, either.

The only thing that's really changed in the last five years is that we're ALL far more connected to the rest of the world than we used to be, so these people that fall into these categories... they finally have a way to connect with others that are like them. That's why it seems new. The online support communities for these groups has done wonders for their ability to actually talk about this stuff and get their own stories out there.

Just something to think about.
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Last edited by Dan; 08-05-17 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 08-05-17, 05:26 PM   #132
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Dan View Post
^ While all of that is new in western countries, it's really not new at all. Again, back to the NatGeo article I posted...
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ma...nder-identity/
I've never heard of "muxe" and my family is all from Mexico. According to Wikipedia this third gender muxe is in Zapotec culture in Oaxaca. I'll have to ask my friends from Oaxaca about this since this is my first time hearing about it.
And it sounds more like it's the equivalent of transgender rather than being non-binary/gender fluid/etc, the multiple pronouns, the transitioning of children, etc. So I don't think that's a really comparable example, but I'll read more into it to get a better idea of it.



Quote:
The only thing that's really changed in the last five years is that we're ALL far more connected to the rest of the world than we used to be, so these people that fall into these categories... they finally have a way to connect with others that are like them.
I'd be interested to know how much these countries influenced the U.S.'s idea of gender in recent years. I would have assumed it's more an outgrowth or progression of our own culture than having access to what's going on in Nigeria and Tonga.
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Old 08-05-17, 06:08 PM   #133
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The odd part to me is why all these issues now? What has changed?
People have changed. They've become more biased, more solidified in their beliefs, and with social media avenues...atom, meet bomb.

For example, one incident happens that is tragic or controversial (or both) and it instantly is known to the world. The incident could have probably been solved locally, but since it goes global...politics always takes over, politicians swoop in for the kill, and celebrities hang on like those parasitic fish on whale sharks in the deep ocean.
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Old 08-05-17, 07:22 PM   #134
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

People haven't heard about it because it wasn't safe for trans people to come out. It still isn't in a lot of places. And rather than take the high road and realize that their precious imprimatur on another person's identify and/or life choices is not precious to anyone but them, people choose to be dicks about something that doesn't affect them and likely never will.
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Old 08-06-17, 04:37 AM   #135
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Vibiana View Post
... people choose to be dicks....
First it's not a choice, then it is.

Everybody just make up your minds already!
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Old 08-06-17, 09:59 AM   #136
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan View Post
^ While all of that is new in western countries, it's really not new at all. Again, back to the NatGeo article I posted...
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ma...nder-identity/



It's new in western countries because we have ingrained such a heavy reliance on the he/she male/female "opposites" (the male/female language, in particular, is used for inanimate objects where pin/box or screw/socket are used as well. USB connectors have male/female names. It's everywhere. And it's not necessarily a BAD thing, but it's our language that specifically makes it harder to adopt these ideas)

So yes, you have a valid point. All those extra pronouns are new and confusing, but it's kind of a product of our society, in that people who don't fit the binary are trying to find a term that fits and works. There's no consensus... I'm not sure there needs to be one, either.

The only thing that's really changed in the last five years is that we're ALL far more connected to the rest of the world than we used to be, so these people that fall into these categories... they finally have a way to connect with others that are like them. That's why it seems new. The online support communities for these groups has done wonders for their ability to actually talk about this stuff and get their own stories out there.

Just something to think about.
I'm responding to the quoted bit in your post.

"The degree to which third genders are accepted varies," says the article.

Yes but. There were several terms I learned as a teenager for third-gender people. Some of them are censored by the forum software. Just because other cultures have a word for it doesn't necessarily mean that they approve.

As for the bolded section, Romance languages like French and Spanish assign male or female gender to everything, not just USB connectors.
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Old 08-06-17, 01:37 PM   #137
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
Curious as to why you disagree. I'm not being a dick or "calling you out". Just curious the reason.
I just don't believe that someone can truly change their sex. I will refer to someone as they wish to be addressed, as that is just a common courtesy... but I will never think of them as that gender.

What do folks really think when they see "Man gives birth to baby" stories? Don't most of us deep down think to ourselves "but that's not a man"?

And a lot of us do everything we can to look younger in our appearance, but it still doesn't change our actual age.
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Old 08-06-17, 02:59 PM   #138
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Artman View Post
I just don't believe that someone can truly change their sex. I will refer to someone as they wish to be addressed, as that is just a common courtesy... but I will never think of them as that gender.

What do folks really think when they see "Man gives birth to baby" stories? Don't most of us deep down think to ourselves "but that's not a man"?

And a lot of us do everything we can to look younger in our appearance, but it still doesn't change our actual age.
So you not giving the possibility they aren't changing who they are, they just are who they are?

Fair enough. And by that I mean, there is no thought police so you can believe anything you want.
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Old 08-06-17, 03:00 PM   #139
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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What do folks really think when they see "Man gives birth to baby" stories? Don't most of us deep down think to ourselves "but that's not a man"?
When I first saw a headline like that I was thinking it was something along the lines of that Schwarzenegger movie "Junior." Then I clicked on the link and yeah, I had a somewhat similar reaction to yours.
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Old 08-06-17, 06:20 PM   #140
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Artman View Post
I just don't believe that someone can truly change their sex. I will refer to someone as they wish to be addressed, as that is just a common courtesy... but I will never think of them as that gender.

What do folks really think when they see "Man gives birth to baby" stories? Don't most of us deep down think to ourselves "but that's not a man"?

And a lot of us do everything we can to look younger in our appearance, but it still doesn't change our actual age.
This. What it ultimately comes down to is this. Women go through menopause, have monthly periods, can produce milk and can carry a baby. Men can make babies and are born with penises and can't carry babies.

Just because you say you relate to being a woman and feel like a woman doesn't make you a woman. By the same token, when you see stories like that Huffington Post article that said "Man gives birth to first son" it's hard not to think that it's something from The Onion.

So no, ultimately just because you say you relate to the opposite sex doesn't make you an actual member of that sex. And as someone who actually went out a couple times with a post op M-F even she said that the issue is more complicated than people who want to simplify it think it is.
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Old 08-06-17, 08:46 PM   #141
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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This. What it ultimately comes down to is this. Women go through menopause, have monthly periods, can produce milk and can carry a baby. Men can make babies and are born with penises and can't carry babies.

Just because you say you relate to being a woman and feel like a woman doesn't make you a woman. By the same token, when you see stories like that Huffington Post article that said "Man gives birth to first son" it's hard not to think that it's something from The Onion.

So no, ultimately just because you say you relate to the opposite sex doesn't make you an actual member of that sex. And as someone who actually went out a couple times with a post op M-F even she said that the issue is more complicated than people who want to simplify it think it is.
That a rather silly arguement. Many women are unable to have babies, produce milk, etc for any number of reasons. Are they not women? There are men who cannot produce sperm and/or have extremely low testosterone. Are they not a man?

You are making a list of characteristics that don't apply to every single person/case.

It is much more complicated than "dick = man, pussy = woman".

And I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on your word choice. "Relate" could be taken as an insult.
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Old 08-06-17, 09:46 PM   #142
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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That a rather silly arguement. Many women are unable to have babies, produce milk, etc for any number of reasons. Are they not women? There are men who cannot produce sperm and/or have extremely low testosterone. Are they not a man?

You are making a list of characteristics that don't apply to every single person/case.

It is much more complicated than "dick = man, pussy = woman".

And I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on your word choice. "Relate" could be taken as an insult.
Case in point.

Guess what if you were born that way, even if a woman can't have a baby, or a man can't impregnate no it doesn't make you less of a man. But the big difference is that you were born that way and your biological functions didn't work. That's a lot different than not having any of those functions because you weren't born that way.

That's the point I'm trying to make and that I learned from dating Torrie for awhile. This is a complicated situation that people like you(NO! THEY ARE WOMEN/MEN!) and the other side (NO! THEY AREN'T WOMEN/MEN) always want to oversimplify. But what do I know, I only went on three dates with a post op M-F. stayed friends with her after the fact and got insight into what its like.
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Old 08-07-17, 02:39 AM   #143
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
So you not giving the possibility they aren't changing who they are, they just are who they are?

Fair enough. And by that I mean, there is no thought police so you can believe anything you want.
I'm sorry, I think there are some auto correcting things going on with your first sentence? And of course...there are no thought police...that's a good thing right? Right?
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Old 08-07-17, 07:04 AM   #144
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Case in point.

Guess what if you were born that way, even if a woman can't have a baby, or a man can't impregnate no it doesn't make you less of a man. But the big difference is that you were born that way and your biological functions didn't work. That's a lot different than not having any of those functions because you weren't born that way.

That's the point I'm trying to make and that I learned from dating Torrie for awhile. This is a complicated situation that people like you(NO! THEY ARE WOMEN/MEN!) and the other side (NO! THEY AREN'T WOMEN/MEN) always want to oversimplify. But what do I know, I only went on three dates with a post op M-F. stayed friends with her after the fact and got insight into what its like.
I'm mot understanding if we are in the same side of the discussion or not. I'm agreeing with you that it is complicated. What I'm not agreeing with is one set of characteristics doesn't work in all cases. Which goes to being complicated.
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Old 08-07-17, 07:06 AM   #145
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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I'm sorry, I think there are some auto correcting things going on with your first sentence? And of course...there are no thought police...that's a good thing right? Right?
Yes, it's a good thing there are no thought police.

My point was, could you not even give the possibility that a trans person is NOT changing who they are. They just are who they are.
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Old 08-07-17, 01:36 PM   #146
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Originally Posted by Sdallnct View Post
The odd part to me is why all these issues now? What has changed?
Read my first post. This has become a hot issue again because of a recent sentencing of a man who killed a Transwoman after they had sex and he found out they were born Male. Story Here. Many suggest the man who did the crime was "raped" by the TG and that his reaction, murder, was justified.

There have been other similar stories over the past few months.
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Old 08-07-17, 05:07 PM   #147
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Read my first post. This has become a hot issue again because of a recent sentencing of a man who killed a Transwoman after they had sex and he found out they were born Male. Story Here. Many suggest the man who did the crime was "raped" by the TG and that his reaction, murder, was justified.

There have been other similar stories over the past few months.
Yes, but again, why now? Are you suggesting that trans people have previously not had sex? Or they aways told their identity until now? Or I suppose one option is what is new the the coverage. Perhaps there have always been issues but there is just more coverage today.
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Old 08-07-17, 08:32 PM   #148
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

Even if that was rape, which it's not, I forgot the part where deciding to kill someone in the heat of the moment is the justified response to rape. Must be one of those unwritten laws I forgot about.
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Old 08-08-17, 01:27 PM   #149
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

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Even if that was rape, which it's not, I forgot the part where deciding to kill someone in the heat of the moment is the justified response to rape. Must be one of those unwritten laws I forgot about.
But let's be honest. If a cisgender woman killed a man during/after he raped her most would generally support her. Some, mostly ones who don't believe a Transgender woman is actually a woman, feel that since they wouldn't consent to sex with a Male, this is Rape. Or at least a form of rape.

While I agree this isn't rape, I do think this is a situation where we are so sensitive to "Rape Culture" any additions to the definitions of Rape that don't leave cisgender, Transgender, Lesbian, females at the center get rejected.
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Old 08-08-17, 01:58 PM   #150
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Re: Would You Consider This RAPE?

This thread and the discussion by many makes me at the ridiculousness of this topic in general and people's stupid opinions about it. The only sensible people were the ones saying no it's not rape and the reasons why, while others want to continue to paint trans people as subhuman and worthy of being murdered(which is more likely to happen than them being fined or going to jail for supposed 'deceit').

So here is an article written by a trans women about her experiences with men, and the issue of how they react towards trans women and the problems that result from how society views trans people in general.

http://www.newnownext.com/why-straig...-love/05/2017/
Spoiler:

Quote:
Women like Mercedes Williamson, a 17-year old trans girl living in Alabama. When her body was found in Mississippi, bludgeoned to death with a hammer, Joshua Vallum was tied to the crime. He originally told police that he only discovered Williamson was transgender when he put his hands down her pants, and that he blacked out and didnít remember killing her. It was only later that it came out the two had been dating. After their relationship ended, when a friend of Vallumís found out that Williamson was trans, that he went to kill her. Vallum was a member of the Latin Kings, which forbids homosexual acts, and he was afraid word would get out.

Itís a particularly tragic story because it all hinges on the belief that a man having sex with a trans woman is a homosexual act.

By all accounts Vallum is not gay. That fact underpins his whole defense and is supported by the accounts of others, particularly his mother. Thereís no indication that Vallum had dated any men, and there is that he had relationships with women.



The problem is a societal one that comes down to people's insecurities and biases regarding sex in general.

So dating for a trans women is always a dangerous ground for her to walk on. Since, no matter how good the relationship is and how much they love each other and their are no secrets, the man knows he's dating a woman who happens to be trans. The person may still have insecurities about being considered 'gay' and fearing how people they know would react if they found out. So they murder them.

So whether a man knows before or after that a woman they're attracted to is trans. They murder them. This always puts the trans woman in danger. Merely existing puts them(including myself) at risk of being murdered by insecure people driven by society to lash out at us. I could be walking down the street and a guy flirts with me, and if he suddenly realizes "Wait a minute!", I could be beaten to a pulp and or murdered despite just minding my own fucking business walking down the street.

That is the reality trans women face and it's not pretty. So instead of trying to justify murdering or abusing trans women as 'okay', why not start treating us as human beings, and you deal with your own insecurities vs taking them out on us? Alright?
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