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Old 08-08-17, 02:55 PM   #126
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

Great, another unprovoked war. We sure learned our lesson after Iraq!
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Old 08-08-17, 03:10 PM   #127
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

well this really worked out huh

Quote:
CLINTON APPROVES A PLAN TO GIVE AID TO NORTH KOREANS
By DAVID E. SANGER,
Published: October 19, 1994


WASHINGTON, Oct. 18— President Clinton approved a plan today to arrange more than $4 billion in energy aid to North Korea during the next decade in return for a commitment from the country's hard-line Communist leadership to freeze and gradually dismantle its nuclear weapons development program.

"This agreement will help achieve a longstanding and vital American objective -- an end to the threat of nuclear proliferation on the Korean Peninsula," Mr. Clinton said this afternoon, after his top foreign policy advisers described the details of an enormously complex agreement struck with North Korea late Monday.

American and North Korean officials plan to sign the broad accord on Friday, and almost immediately the United States will begin a remarkable new foreign aid program: it will provide for the North, with which it has never signed a peace treaty ending the Korean War, supplies of heavy oil to keep factories running and homes heated.

The Pentagon had expressed concern that some of the fuel could be diverted to the North's million-man army, but officials said they were working to assure supplies that would be incompatible with its tanks and other military equipment.

"This agreement is good for the United States, good for our allies, and good for the safety of the entire world," Mr. Clinton said in a brief appearance in the White House press room this afternoon. "It's a crucial step toward drawing North Korea into the global community."

The accord calls for a consortium of nations, led by South Korea and Japan, to provide the North with two light-water nuclear reactors, designed in a manner that makes it far more difficult for the North to convert nuclear waste into atomic weapons.

The total cost of the project was put at $4 billion by Robert L. Gallucci, the chief American negotiator with the North. The financing would be supplied by South Korea, Japan and possibly Germany, Russia and the United States.

Under the accord, North Korea would agree to allow full and continuous inspections of its existing nuclear sites, freeze and then later take apart some of its most important nuclear plants and ultimately ship out of the country fuel rods that could be converted into fuel for weapons.

But the agreement also allows North Korea to keep those rods for an unspecified number of years. This provision means that the potential that North Korea could break its agreements and quickly produce nuclear weapons will not disappear until the end of the decade.

The provision also means that it will be years before inspectors can resolve the question of how much weapons-grade plutonium the North has already produced and perhaps converted into a primitive nuclear weapon. Some of Mr. Clinton's defense and intelligence aides said today that they had hoped North Korea would be forced to surrender its nuclear fuel under a much more rapid timetable. But they said that this goal could not be accomplished, and that the agreement reached this week was better than a continuing confrontation.

In the view of the Administration's experts, North Korea clearly did not want to abandon its largest national project until large-scale aid began to flow in. Over the years, the North has come to view the nuclear program as its only true defense against what it sees as hostile neighbors: South Korea, Japan and American forces in the Pacific.

But Mr. Gallucci insisted to reporters today that the agreement "does not rely on trust."

He said that the Government in Pyongyang would not receive any nuclear-sensitive materials for the new reactors until the International Atomic Energy Agency was able to conduct full inspections of nuclear sites, including two sites that the Central Intelligence Agency believes will help unravel the mystery of whether the North already possesses one or more nuclear weapons.

The accord struck in Geneva gave the President a chance to proclaim a major foreign policy success just weeks before the midterm election. But Asian diplomats pointed out today that it also placed the United States in the odd position of bolstering the political capital of a man it has regularly denounced as a terrorist, a supplier of missile technology to Iran and a dictator: Kim Jong Il.

Mr. Kim is expected to take control of the country formally later this month, succeeding his late father, Kim Il Sung. Little is known about Kim Jong Il, but American, Japanese and South Korean intelligence officials have described him in the past as the chief proponent for the past decade of the North's secret nuclear weapons program.

Japan and South Korea endorsed the agreement today, but have not yet said what share they will take in the new energy consortium.

American officials said that after some initial balking, Seoul had agreed to pay somewhat more than 50 percent of the cost of building the reactors -- the design of which will be based on a nuclear plant in Ulchin, South Korea -- and that Japan would probably pay 30 percent or more.

Germany and Russia, possibly along with the United States, may also become minor investors.

The agreement that Mr. Clinton announced today is perhaps the biggest turning point yet in a nuclear program that the United States paid little attention to in the 1980's, then could not stop in the early 1990's, and that over the past year has sometimes seemed on the verge of setting off a military confrontation.

In June the Administration was on the verge of imposing sanctions against North Korea -- a step that would have required the commitment of thousands of American troops to Korea to reinforce the 38,000 already stationed there -- until former President Jimmy Carter invited himself to Pyongyang and negotiated directly with Kim Il Sung. Mr. Kim died just a few weeks later, but, to the amazement of American officials, the new tone set by Mr. Carter and the man known for four decades as the North's "Great Leader" survived.

Mr. Gallucci, a seemingly unflappable negotiator who has spent hundreds of hours with the North Koreans and still professes to understand very little about their motives, insisted at the White House today that the United States had obtained virtually everything it sought. "The agreement goes to concerns we've had about the North Korean nuclear program with respect to past activities, current activities and future activities," he said.

The main accomplishment of the agreement is that it commits North Korea to never resuming operations of its five-megawatt nuclear reactor -- a source of fuel for its nuclear weapons project -- and never to finish construction of two larger reactors, rated at 50 and 200 megawatts, which potentially could produce fuel for hundreds of additional weapons. In time, North Korea is also committed to dismantling the most crucial installation in its nuclear complex: a reprocessing plant that can convert spent nuclear fuel into weapons-grade plutonium.

The heavy oil and the new nuclear reactors are being described by the Administration as compensation for the energy production the North has forgone by shuttering the plants.

What bothers some nuclear experts, from the Pentagon to the International Atomic Energy Agency, is that the North will continue to possess nuclear spent fuel for years, surrendering it only when the new reactors are nearing completion. That leaves open the possibility that if it ever renounced this week's agreement it could eject all international inspectors and resume the bomb project.

"This means that we are living with a country that flouted the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty and will remain in noncompliance for years," an atomic energy agency official said today. "We wanted to get that fuel out of the country, and out of the country fast."

Similarly, some of the agency's officials are concerned that the so-called special inspection of a suspected nuclear site that they demanded two years ago -- a demand that prompted the North to announce it would pull out of the Nonproliferation Treaty -- will be delayed for five years or more. "It is not a good precedent to set," the official said, "if we have to demand a special inspection in Iran or Iraq or someplace else in the world."

Map shows proposed locations for reactors in North Korea.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:13 PM   #128
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by Nick Danger View Post
We aren't going to invade. North Korea would blow up Seoul if anyone does. They don't even need bombers because their artillery can reach it.

The current issue of The Atlantic has a good analysis of the situation.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...-earth/528717/
This article was very sobering, and I finished it right before the current sh-tstorm.

Yikes.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:30 PM   #129
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by raven56706 View Post
well this really worked out huh
For a decade or so, until George W. Bush started sabre rattling toward North Korea and it broke down. That was followed by another decade of six-party talks across the Bush and Obama administrations.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:33 PM   #130
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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"A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." - Hillary Clinton
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Old 08-08-17, 03:35 PM   #131
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

Yahoo story - Trump warns N. Korea it will face ‘fire and fury’

For those of you wanting to read the story. I don't think this is helpful from Trump, but NK has ramped things up. I think their calculus is that the US is not going to start a shooting match over this. China will get involved militarily. Imagine if Russia invaded Mexico, do you think we would just sit by and do nothing? Ok, bad example under this administration, but still.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:35 PM   #132
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by JasonF View Post
For a decade or so, until George W. Bush started sabre rattling toward North Korea and it broke down. That was followed by another decade of six-party talks across the Bush and Obama administrations.

kim aint going to do shit now with China not having their back.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:36 PM   #133
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Yahoo story - Trump warns N. Korea it will face ‘fire and fury’

For those of you wanting to read the story. I don't think this is helpful from Trump, but NK has ramped things up. I think their calculus is that the US is not going to start a shooting match over this. China will get involved. Imagine if Russia invaded Mexico, do you think we would just sit by and do nothing? Ok, bad example under this administration, but still.
china will fuck NK up. they have had enough of their shit.
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Old 08-08-17, 03:40 PM   #134
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by VinVega View Post
Yahoo story - Trump warns N. Korea it will face ‘fire and fury’

For those of you wanting to read the story. I don't think this is helpful from Trump, but NK has ramped things up. I think their calculus is that the US is not going to start a shooting match over this. China will get involved militarily. Imagine if Russia invaded Mexico, do you think we would just sit by and do nothing? Ok, bad example under this administration, but still.

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Old 08-08-17, 03:43 PM   #135
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by raven56706 View Post
china will fuck NK up. they have had enough of their shit.
China will not be a part of taking down the NK regime. They will not help the US. They have to look like they are in charge of Asia and helping a foreign power take down their client state is not in the cards. If shooting starts, China will send in troops to attack the US. Nothing has changed since 1953 in terms of China's military calculus on the Korean peninsula.
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Old 08-08-17, 04:19 PM   #136
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles






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Old 08-08-17, 05:09 PM   #137
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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For a decade or so, until George W. Bush started sabre rattling toward North Korea and it broke down. That was followed by another decade of six-party talks across the Bush and Obama administrations.
And while all this talking, North Korea was furthering their testing and development.

You forgot to mention the Clinton Administration and the plutonium freeze that was a failure, btw (i.e., failure being that NK still researched nuclear tech with plutonium--reports were numerous at the time--and the Clinton Admin did nothing about it).
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Old 08-08-17, 05:57 PM   #138
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

You know who's in even closer range to NK's nuclear missiles? South Korea!

But show me a S. Korean newspaper with a front page headline that's worrying about North Korean belligerence right now.

Well, here's something from the Dong-A Ilbo's editorial board (NOT a headline news story)...

Quote:
The phone call between the two heads of state came a day after the UN Security Council adopted a set of sanctions against North Korea with the levels of punitive intensity higher than ever. During the phone call, President Moon clearly said, “It is time for sanctions and pressure, not a dialogue.” His judgment derives from North Korea’s undeterred attempts at provocations in the face of the South’s continued emphasis on a twin track of sanctions and dialogues. President Moon also stressed that he would not condone yet another calamity of war taking place on the Korean Peninsula. It was an expression‎ of grave concern on the part of South Korea about White House National Security Adviser Herbert McMaster’s mentioning of “preventive war."

President Trump expressed his interest in President Moon’s proposal of an inter-Korean meeting wondered how the North would respond. Perhaps, it would be difficult for him to take President Moon’s proposal as the offer came right after a series of sanctions were adopted. In a response, President Moon made it clear that the main agenda of the proposed inter-Korean talks is reunion of separated families in North and South Korea and prevention of contingent conflicts, not North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs. Essentially, President Moon proposed to split up roles on the issues surrounding North Korea, where the U.S. and the international community lead the dialogues on Pyongyang’s nuclear and missile programs, and the South takes the initiative in hashing out the issues between the two Koreas.

However, North Korea is showing no response to President Moon’s offer. On Sunday, South Korea’s Foreign Minister Kang Kyung-hwa met with her North Korean counterpart Ri Yong Ho in Manila and urged the North to quickly respond to the proposal, but Ri dismissed the offer as “devoid of sincerity." Pyongyang is letting its stance be known that there would be no improvement in inter-Korean relations without first resolving the issues between the North and the U.S.
Literally the only concern mentioned here is over the Trump's own warmongering.
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Old 08-08-17, 07:04 PM   #139
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

Well that escalated quickly.
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Old 08-08-17, 07:06 PM   #140
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
You know who's in even closer range to NK's nuclear missiles? South Korea!

But show me a S. Korean newspaper with a front page headline that's worrying about North Korean belligerence right now.

Well, here's something from the Dong-A Ilbo's editorial board (NOT a headline news story)...



Literally the only concern mentioned here is over the Trump's own warmongering.
I know that at this point it's dumb to assume a world leader would never do something this stupid, but wouldn't North Korea nuking South Korea essentially be suicide?
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Old 08-08-17, 07:17 PM   #141
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Logic has no place with an insane leader, though. That's the problem. You cannot reason with this man.
Agreed, but what about Kim Jong-Un?
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Old 08-08-17, 07:21 PM   #142
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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"best not make any more threats to the United States"

in Trump language is Guam part of the US or did he mean the US 50? Either way I think NK just called out Trump to see if he's bluffing or not
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Old 08-08-17, 07:33 PM   #143
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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I know that at this point it's dumb to assume a world leader would never do something this stupid, but wouldn't North Korea nuking South Korea essentially be suicide?
Pretty sure NK nuking anywhere would be suicide.
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Old 08-08-17, 07:33 PM   #144
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

Meh. Guam. Who gives a fuck.

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Old 08-08-17, 08:00 PM   #145
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Old 08-08-17, 08:03 PM   #146
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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You know who's in even closer range to NK's nuclear missiles? South Korea!

But show me a S. Korean newspaper with a front page headline that's worrying about North Korean belligerence right now.
I don't think you'd want to nuke the very part you're trying to assimilate.
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Old 08-08-17, 08:17 PM   #147
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

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Agreed, but what about Kim Jong-Un?
You're right. We should impeach Kim.

But only after we impeach Putin.
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Old 08-08-17, 08:37 PM   #148
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

Guam supported Hillary.

So sorry, folks.
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Old 08-08-17, 08:51 PM   #149
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Re: North Korea may have fired missiles

I've said all along Trump would kill us with a tweet. But hey, those emails, amiright?
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Old 08-08-17, 09:12 PM   #150
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