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Religion, Politics and World Events They make great dinner conversation, don't you think? plus Political Film

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Old 03-13-17, 12:10 PM   #26
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Originally Posted by Lt Ripley View Post
Which is worse, bigotry or a message stated in a way someone doesn't like?
No, no, it's very important we let bigots be heard in any forum they want. If that drives away women and people of color who don't want to deal with a toxic atmosphere, well that's too bad for the little snowflakes. They can have their safe-spaces, but big, tough manly men will duke it out with their ideas in a no-holds-bar arena of thought!

Wait, did you just call me a racist, misogynist pig? That's really mean. How dare you? It's totally not fair! I should be able to espouse my views without being attacked for them!
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Old 03-13-17, 12:13 PM   #27
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

As penance, here is a live clip featuring both Nick and Elvis dueting. James Burton guitar solo ensues.

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Old 03-13-17, 12:17 PM   #28
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Originally Posted by Sean O'Hara View Post
No, no, it's very important we let bigots be heard in any forum they want. If that drives away women and people of color who don't want to deal with a toxic atmosphere, well that's too bad for the little snowflakes. They can have their safe-spaces, but big, tough manly men will duke it out with their ideas in a no-holds-bar arena of thought!

Wait, did you just call me a racist, misogynist pig? That's really mean. How dare you? It's totally not fair! I should be able to espouse my views without being attacked for them!
Also funny is that creek is clearly ignoring any members who aren't "civil" enough for him (AKA not capitulating to his word salad bullshit) and then has the gall to suggest that millennial are rejecting alternate points of view.
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Old 03-13-17, 12:24 PM   #29
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Originally Posted by creekdipper View Post
live clip featuring both Nick and Elvis dueting. James Burton guitar solo ensues.

Thanks creek
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Old 03-13-17, 12:31 PM   #30
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Thanks creek
Happy to share.

Although majorjoe, cungar, and JasonF also get credit for pointing out proper attribution.
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Old 03-13-17, 02:05 PM   #31
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

An opposing viewpoint:

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Old 03-13-17, 02:41 PM   #32
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Also funny is that creek is clearly ignoring any members who aren't "civil" enough for him (AKA not capitulating to his word salad bullshit) and then has the gall to suggest that millennial are rejecting alternate points of view.
Not worth your time. There are other people (like me) who can learn from your posts.
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Old 03-13-17, 03:02 PM   #33
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

I think Western society is having a very hard time adjusting to the freewheeling nature of the Internet and social media, which exposes everyone's opinion to others.

A mere twenty years ago, only a small handful of carefully selected and curated broadcasters and writers had any influence on a person's reading and media consumption. Now everyone is exposed to the raw, uncensored opinions of their friends and family on a daily basis. Entertainment has proliferated into dozens of niche target audiences based on identity demographics.

The tone of our entertainment industry has drastically changed, seeping into every facet of our culture. As Madison Avenue and other corporate forces have shifted from pandering to Baby Boomers to younger Millennials, it's a reflection of a generation raised almost entirely on the Internet.

As Western culture slides evermore into moral relativism, public discourse is only going to get uglier. People will retreat to "safe" spaces that align with their own preconceived notions. It appears some can't handle the cognitive dissonance of facing opposing or alternative viewpoints without melting down.
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Old 03-13-17, 03:54 PM   #34
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

Opposing viewpoints don't cause cognitive dissonance. Holding two contradictory thoughts in your head is cognitive dissonance. For example, following a religious leader who said to care for the sick and the poor, while supporting politicians who want to remove healthcare and social safety nets. That's cognitive e dissonance.

Thinking that a group, say the LGBTQ+ community, deserves equal rights and encountering someone who thinks they don't isn't cognitive dissonance.
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Old 03-13-17, 05:26 PM   #35
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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How offensively absurd that creek of all people is deriding the death of the middle ground when he's part of a movement that wants to turn the US into a theocracy based on a perversion of Christianity. Perhaps the reason people don't try to find a middle ground is because evangelicals act like ISIS and try to cut out anyone who disagrees with their insane doctrines.
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Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Also funny is that creek is clearly ignoring any members who aren't "civil" enough for him (AKA not capitulating to his word salad bullshit) and then has the gall to suggest that millennial are rejecting alternate points of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermallet View Post
Opposing viewpoints don't cause cognitive dissonance. Holding two contradictory thoughts in your head is cognitive dissonance. For example, following a religious leader who said to care for the sick and the poor, while supporting politicians who want to remove healthcare and social safety nets. That's cognitive e dissonance.

Thinking that a group, say the LGBTQ+ community, deserves equal rights and encountering someone who thinks they don't isn't cognitive dissonance.
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Old 03-13-17, 05:31 PM   #36
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

I promise everyone that I'm not paying these people to make these posts regardless of how it looks!


Last edited by creekdipper; 03-13-17 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 03-13-17, 05:45 PM   #37
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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I promise everyone that I'm not paying these people to make these posts regardless of how it looks!

Your check bounced, buddy. Not the same thing!

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Old 03-13-17, 05:46 PM   #38
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Your check bounced, buddy. Not the same thing!

...

Royalties to both Nick Lowe AND Elvis as penance.
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Old 03-13-17, 05:53 PM   #39
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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...

Royalties to both Nick Lowe AND Elvis as penance.
You've got to be cruel to be kind.
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What about cereal that changes the color for those who can't get over the white soup color?


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Old 03-13-17, 05:54 PM   #40
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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You've got to be cruel to be kind.
But only in the right measure.

Btw...who's Alan?
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Old 03-13-17, 06:00 PM   #41
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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But only in the right measure.

Btw...who's Alan?
http://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/...eanliness.html

Possible DVD Talk record holder. The above thread has been going strong for over 3 years now.
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What about cereal that changes the color for those who can't get over the white soup color?


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Old 03-13-17, 06:01 PM   #42
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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http://forum.dvdtalk.com/other-talk/...eanliness.html

Possible DVD Talk record holder. The above thread has been going strong for over 3 years now.
Ah, now it's so clear. Thanks for the reminder.

Best thread ever. It just keeps on giving.

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Old 03-13-17, 06:08 PM   #43
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Opposing viewpoints don't cause cognitive dissonance. Holding two contradictory thoughts in your head is cognitive dissonance. For example, following a religious leader who said to care for the sick and the poor, while supporting politicians who want to remove healthcare and social safety nets. That's cognitive e dissonance.

...
No, it isn't. Or I should say more accurately, it is when you frame it that way, but that is an issue of framing more than anything.


Note, I am not commenting on how the specific merits of trumpcare or what its effects will be. I haven't read the bill yet nor the many economic assessments that will follow. It certainly seems on the face of it that it's a bad piece of legislation. I am making a more general point, one I've made before.

For example, one can be in favour of the environment and not be fan of the EPA.
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Old 03-13-17, 06:40 PM   #44
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

An insightful column appearing in The Hill three years ago. Maybe more relevant today than ever.

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The Death of Civil Discourse?

By Allan J. Lichtman, contributor - 09/10/14 07:30 AM EDT

On Aug. 27, I appeared on the Fox News program "The O'Reilly Factor" to discuss President Obama's legacy. Another guest, conservative author Jane Hammond Cook, began by claiming that Obama would be ranked among the bottom 15 or 20 of presidents.

In response, I made the following points: You cannot judge a president's legacy during his term because evaluations change drastically over time. Harry Truman's approval ratings sank to 22 percent during his last year in office — about half of Obama's current ratings. Truman was reviled in his time, but scholars today generally regard him as a near-great president.

I did not attempt prematurely to rank Obama overall, but noted that whether you agree with his policies or not, he already is the most consequential Democratic president since Lyndon Johnson. In the limited time available, I cited two examples. First, Obama's efforts to preserve the auto industry and the financial system and his nearly $1 trillion stimulus program likely kept the terrible economy he inherited from an even more disastrous meltdown. I cited studies in support of this view.

Second, with the Affordable Health Care Act, Obama achieved a goal that had eluded numerous presidents of both parties for more than 60 years. Over time, I said it was likely that the act would achieve the goals of insuring many additional millions of Americans and slowing down rising healthcare costs despite every effort by Obama's political opposition to destroy the act. The Affordable Care Act, I noted, was the only major social legislation in the history of the country enacted without a single vote from the opposition party.

These are hardly extreme or radical views. They are of course eminently debatable points and debate them we did, quite civilly on the "Factor." Then came the deluge of emails, phone calls and tweets. The vast majority of these missives were hateful, poisonous, and personal. You would think I had just called for the violent overthrow of our civilization.

Here are just a few examples of the personal attacks my O’Reilly appearance elicited; comments that denied my right even to have an opinion. One university official recommended that I contact our public safety unit, but as you can see the comments are more pathetic and laughable than threatening. Prepare to enter the theater of the absurd:

Allan Lichtman: perfect example of communist on tv, come on, no more commies, they should get no press.

Your trucking poodleism of Obama is nauseating.

You are just another Obama sucker. Your degrees mean nothing, you can get them at MC Donald with a kiddy bag. So sad that tax dollars are wasted on you.

PhD? in what? idiots r us.

Regurgitating garbage. Don’t you make yourself sick.

Does he live in the U.S.? Lives in loonville.

A mindless idiot.

A total a--clown.

An educated moron.

A glittering jewel of colossal ignorance.

As pathetic as these personal attacks may be, they still go a long way to explaining why our politics today is polarized and dysfunctional. In fact, no civilization can thrive without civil discourse that recognizes the legitimacy of our diverse points of view.

I can only hope that my revelation of these venomous, if ridiculous, personal attacks will lead to more respectful, constructive dialogue among those with differing ideas. Spirited debate is essential to a healthy democracy, but as Gerald Ford said, "We can disagree without being disagreeable."

To this end, we would do well to consider guidelines for civil discourse proposed by Charles Camosy, an assistant professor of Christian ethics at Fordham University, which I paraphrase as follows.

Humility: We all are flawed and make mistakes and should be open to someone challenging our point of view.
Listening and respecting: We should give others the courtesy of actually responding to their ideas and arguments rather than destroying them personally. We may have something to learn from a contrary viewpoint.
Avoiding binary thinking: The issues of our time are too important and complex to put into simplistic "us versus them" antagonisms.
Avoiding dismissive words and phrases: It might feel good to score these rhetorical points, but that is how dialogue becomes polarized and destructive. Hatefulness only divides us and never brings us together.
Leading with what you are for: We can forcefully say what we believe without belittling others. We might even find some ground on which we can agree.

Lichtman is distinguished professor of history at American University in Washington.
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Old 03-13-17, 06:41 PM   #45
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

I, personally, am in favor of:

1. People using whichever public restroom they feel like, doing their business, cleaning up after themselves, refraining from bothering anyone else who's using the restroom for the purpose it was intended for, and not whining about somebody else making them "uncomfortable" for the great crime of existing.

2. Single payer health care, which appears to work just fine in every civilized country except the United States of America, where we apparently think health care is only for those who "deserve" it.

3. Not requiring minor children to disrobe in a communal atmosphere, no matter what naughty bits are involved, as part of a curriculum.
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Old 03-13-17, 06:43 PM   #46
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Now everyone is exposed to the raw, uncensored opinions of their friends and family on a daily basis.
You've never met my family, have you? I've been exposed to their raw and uncensored opinions since 1965.
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Old 03-13-17, 07:01 PM   #47
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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You've never met my family, have you? I've been exposed to their raw and uncensored opinions since 1965.
Vibiana - I have never met them, however I have read your posts.

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Old 03-13-17, 10:37 PM   #48
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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Opposing viewpoints don't cause cognitive dissonance. Holding two contradictory thoughts in your head is cognitive dissonance. For example, following a religious leader who said to care for the sick and the poor, while supporting politicians who want to remove healthcare and social safety nets. That's cognitive e dissonance.
I would strenously disagree with that assertion in some groups of people. It is obvious that some suffer great emotional stress when confronted with a worldview diametrically opposed to their own beliefs. The visible emotional stress is proof of the cognitive dissonance they are feeling.

It often means those people haven't rigorously thought through their own beliefs and the implications of them. People like mindlessly conforming to their self-selected peer group, it's always easier that way.
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Old 03-14-17, 12:39 AM   #49
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

You know what? I learned something today, apparently emotional distress caused by encountering a completely different viewpoint is a form of cognitive dissonance. So I retract my earlier statement and concede the point.

Now I realize that not only is my previous example about following a religious leader who calls upon his followers to help the sick and poor while supporting politicians who are trying to remove healthcare and other social safety net benefits cognitive dissonance, but also being so wrapped up in your religious bubble that encountering someone saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is ALSO cognitive dissonance, should the phrase "Happy Holidays" cause you to freak out and declare that a war on Christmas is being waged.

See also: Starbucks coffee cups
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Old 03-14-17, 08:17 AM   #50
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Re: Demise of Public Civil Discourse Toward Opposing Viewpoints

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I would strenously disagree with that assertion in some groups of people. It is obvious that some suffer great emotional stress when confronted with a worldview diametrically opposed to their own beliefs. The visible emotional stress is proof of the cognitive dissonance they are feeling.

It often means those people haven't rigorously thought through their own beliefs and the implications of them. People like mindlessly conforming to their self-selected peer group, it's always easier that way.
If I was to accept this post as true, you just perfectly described the pro-life movement and people that support these anti-TG bathroom bills. Lots of emotional stress without any plans on how to actually execute their plans should they succeed.
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